233 réponses à ce sujet

[Senario]

An interesting point in indoctrination is that they assert that Prothean VI's were unable to detect indoctrination if it wasn't "complete" but that's completely out there and nothing more than speculation. Besides, it is clear that VI's CAN DETECT Indoctrination. There's no reason they wouldn't be able to detect even partial types. A more plausible solution to how the Prothean Sleeper agents sabotaged the project without being detected is that they hacked the actual VI/shut it down then hacked it so it would give out fake reports of presence of indoctrination. They now have free reign. After all, when you can hack geth that have self correcting code, it shouldn't be hard to hack a VI without one.

[dreman9999]

Senario wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...*snip*

So how do you get around Vendetta being able to detect indoctrinated individuals?  That's the point where it falls down to me.  All I've encountered in respose are baseless excuses about partial indoctrination and unreliability of it's detection capability, with zero evidence.

How do people miss the fact that the prothean VI is the same Vi on the prothean crusible project that was stopped because of indoctrinated sleeper agents. 
Use some deductive resoning.
How can something that fail to detect something then be dependible to detect something now. And shepard is in the process of indoctrination, which has states, so he would not be detected.

That is an assertion you cannot make and is nothing more than wild speculation. Asserting that the VI was on the old crucible project and conveniently missed these agents when it detected Kai Leng is just bad reasoning. For one, the VI was on Thessia as part of a similar time capsule/cultivational purpose as Liara's time capsule. The Thessia Government withheld this relic because it gave them the technological edge.

http://www.youtube.c...K1id-kKw#t=763s
And Javik had a indoctrination sensing VI thereat the fall og the protheans, too....How did the indoctrinated agent remin undetected near it?[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

[Tiax Rules All]

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...


[/quote]Javik says this.... http://www.youtube.c...K1id-kKw#t=763s
If you got a VI that can sense indctrinated sleeper agents  in your ranks and you later find out that you still were betrade by indoctrinated agents that were in your ranks...It's clear that the VI is not suited to detact indoctrinated Agents.[/quote]
good show. beat me to it..

[dreman9999]

Senario wrote...

An interesting point in indoctrination is that they assert that Prothean VI's were unable to detect indoctrination if it wasn't "complete" but that's completely out there and nothing more than speculation. Besides, it is clear that VI's CAN DETECT Indoctrination. There's no reason they wouldn't be able to detect even partial types. A more plausible solution to how the Prothean Sleeper agents sabotaged the project without being detected is that they hacked the actual VI/shut it down then hacked it so it would give out fake reports of presence of indoctrination. They now have free reign. After all, when you can hack geth that have self correcting code, it shouldn't be hard to hack a VI without one.

But it clearly did not..If it did, the prothean empire would still be in exsistance.

[Heimdall]

Sajuro wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...*snip*

So how do you get around Vendetta being able to detect indoctrinated individuals?  That's the point where it falls down to me.  All I've encountered in respose are baseless excuses about partial indoctrination and unreliability of it's detection capability, with zero evidence.

How do people miss the fact that the prothean VI is the same Vi on the prothean crusible project that was stopped because of indoctrinated sleeper agents. 
Use some deductive resoning.
How can something that fail to detect something then be dependible to detect something now. And shepard is in the process of indoctrination, which has states, so he would not be detected.

What VI on the Prothean Crucible project?  What are you talking about?

The one you find on thessia. I thought you where taking about the same VI...Even then 
Vendetta still say the prothean were betryed by indctrinated sleeper agents any way. The fact that everyone is not being lead by the prothean empire now is a clear sign that the VI are not dependible for detecting people ing the prosses of indoctrination.

You're assuming it failed to detect them, or that they didn't go out of their way to avoid being close enough to detect.  This is all assuming it was even on the old crucible project.  This isn't proof of non reliability.

If they were able to bypass prothean security that was scanning for indoctrination wether they were staying far away or not then the VIs failed in their job to detect indoctrination.

Again, suppositions galore.  Was there prothean security scanning for indoctrination?  As Javik said, everything was chaos.  Even then, perhaps, knowing of such security, they were able to bypass it.  This is not indicstion of anything unless you can prove such systems were in place or even that the indoctrinated faction had to be that close to the project to sabotage it.

My other problem with the IT theory is that Shepard apparently makes a jump from partial indoctriation with minimal side effects to full blown hallucinations and mental delusion instantly, entirely unheard of.

[Tiax Rules All]

1:10 prothean VI speaks of indoctrinated sleeper cells

Modifié par Tiax Rules All, 03 avril 2012 - 04:32 .

[Senario]

dreman9999 wrote...

Senario wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...*snip*

So how do you get around Vendetta being able to detect indoctrinated individuals?  That's the point where it falls down to me.  All I've encountered in respose are baseless excuses about partial indoctrination and unreliability of it's detection capability, with zero evidence.

How do people miss the fact that the prothean VI is the same Vi on the prothean crusible project that was stopped because of indoctrinated sleeper agents. 
Use some deductive resoning.
How can something that fail to detect something then be dependible to detect something now. And shepard is in the process of indoctrination, which has states, so he would not be detected.

That is an assertion you cannot make and is nothing more than wild speculation. Asserting that the VI was on the old crucible project and conveniently missed these agents when it detected Kai Leng is just bad reasoning. For one, the VI was on Thessia as part of a similar time capsule/cultivational purpose as Liara's time capsule. The Thessia Government withheld this relic because it gave them the technological edge.

http://www.youtube.c...K1id-kKw#t=763s
And Javik had a indoctrination sensing VI thereat the fall og the protheans, too....How did the indoctrinated agent remin undetected near it?[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

Read my post above, easy explaination. Works within Mass Effect universe. If modern day engineers have omnitools which they can use to hack self correcting AI, then the ancient and more advanced Protheans would have had much better tech to hack with. Shut down VI, Hack it to give false reports of indoctrination. Win.

[DarthSyphilis59]

N7L4D wrote...

Frocharocha wrote...

I will throw the game out of the window.

I'd be happy, this guy though would just be dissapointed he got fooled

True

[Tiax Rules All]

Whatever Lord.

It seems no matter how much we use the GAME to prove ourselves you will use your WORDS to "disprove it"

you say supposition, I say common sense

[the slynx]

dreman9999 wrote...
But your missing the fact that it was cleary explined...http://masseffect.wi...#Indoctrination ...

Also need to read more of what i wrote....It explaines more about what I'm talking about.

I read all of what you wrote, and I'm not at all convinced.

And no, it isn't explained clearly enough to be a clear, falsifiable plot device rather than space magic. We have no idea why, for instance, Shepard should have seen the Citadel scenes are a complete hallucination; the codexes only point phantom voices and ghostly images. Or at what point Shepard was indoctrinated, or how the VI indoctrination detection works and why it failed. etc. There are speculative answers to all these points, but they're necessarily speculative: the answer isn't sufficiently present in-game.

[Tov01]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Whatever Lord.

It seems no matter how much we use the GAME to prove ourselves you will use your WORDS to "disprove it"

you say supposition, I say common sense

Have you considered that the same pieces of evidence can be interpreted in more than one way? That people can look at the same thing and come to different conclusions?

[humansrsuperior]

Aside from being annoyed and ticked that it's in no way an ending and that's what we got in the game itself?  As a lead up to an ending, I would love it---depending on what direction they took it.  I think an attempt at indroctrinating Shepard during the final battle is a great idea in general (in fact I still would have loved it if it had been a lead up to the ending).  It just depends on how they would do it. 

(But yeah, not getting the "real" ending in the actual game itself is... well, others have covered that ground already.  But I could forgive it, I think, if it undos the stupid starchild catalyst thing.)

[the slynx]

Lord Aesir wrote...
...
My other problem with the IT theory is that Shepard apparently makes a jump from partial indoctriation with minimal side effects to full blown hallucinations and mental delusion instantly, entirely unheard of.

Agreed. I don't think indoctrination is defined well enough in its details to be used as a plot device the way IT demands.

[dreman9999]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...*snip*

So how do you get around Vendetta being able to detect indoctrinated individuals?  That's the point where it falls down to me.  All I've encountered in respose are baseless excuses about partial indoctrination and unreliability of it's detection capability, with zero evidence.

How do people miss the fact that the prothean VI is the same Vi on the prothean crusible project that was stopped because of indoctrinated sleeper agents. 
Use some deductive resoning.
How can something that fail to detect something then be dependible to detect something now. And shepard is in the process of indoctrination, which has states, so he would not be detected.

What VI on the Prothean Crucible project?  What are you talking about?

The one you find on thessia. I thought you where taking about the same VI...Even then 
Vendetta still say the prothean were betryed by indctrinated sleeper agents any way. The fact that everyone is not being lead by the prothean empire now is a clear sign that the VI are not dependible for detecting people ing the prosses of indoctrination.

You're assuming it failed to detect them, or that they didn't go out of their way to avoid being close enough to detect.  This is all assuming it was even on the old crucible project.  This isn't proof of non reliability.

If they were able to bypass prothean security that was scanning for indoctrination wether they were staying far away or not then the VIs failed in their job to detect indoctrination.

Again, suppositions galore.  Was there prothean security scanning for indoctrination?  As Javik said, everything was chaos.  Even then, perhaps, knowing of such security, they were able to bypass it.  This is not indicstion of anything unless you can prove such systems were in place or even that the indoctrinated faction had to be that close to the project to sabotage it.

My other problem with the IT theory is that Shepard apparently makes a jump from partial indoctriation with minimal side effects to full blown hallucinations and mental delusion instantly, entirely unheard of.

1. The chaos was no at the level your thinking...Remeber, Javik said the git the best worrior to be put in cryo. That's mean they had some order to organize it. The chaos was just in know what as going on through out the empire.
2.Your forgeting that a being can be indoctrinated by just being near a reaper. Shep was cut down by Harbinger...And Harbinger had to do to finish the process of indocrination is to say nearSeps body.

[Tiax Rules All]

I have developed grey hairs in my beard since the release of Mass Effect 3. No joke whatsoever. Coming here is slowely driving me to insanity.

While I can admit that my theory on IT may not be proven true. It still feels like some people who like to argue against it aren't playing the same game that I am.

[Heimdall]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Javik says this.... http://www.youtube.c...K1id-kKw#t=763s
If you got a VI that can sense indctrinated sleeper agents  in your ranks and you later find out that you still were betrade by indoctrinated agents that were in your ranks...It's clear that the VI is not suited to detact indoctrinated Agents.

good show. beat me to it..

He says there were betrayers in their ranks.  They never said that the VI failed.  You can't even prove these agents were in a position where the VI could detect them.  The fact remains:

In every case where we have seen a Prothean VI near indoctrinated presences, it has detected them, unless those safeguards are deactivated as happened to Vendetta after it was captured by Cerberus.  It is more likely that such VIs were similarly sabotaged than them developing a never once referenced unreliability.

[Senario]

dreman9999 wrote...

Senario wrote...

An interesting point in indoctrination is that they assert that Prothean VI's were unable to detect indoctrination if it wasn't "complete" but that's completely out there and nothing more than speculation. Besides, it is clear that VI's CAN DETECT Indoctrination. There's no reason they wouldn't be able to detect even partial types. A more plausible solution to how the Prothean Sleeper agents sabotaged the project without being detected is that they hacked the actual VI/shut it down then hacked it so it would give out fake reports of presence of indoctrination. They now have free reign. After all, when you can hack geth that have self correcting code, it shouldn't be hard to hack a VI without one.

But it clearly did not..If it did, the prothean empire would still be in exsistance.

Read the whole post, I provide a reasonable and plausible explaination how you could avoid being detected as "indoctrinated." Even the Illusive man and Miranda's father seemed to understand how indoctrination worked at it's core. I assume the Protheans were able to make tech that DOES SCAN PROPERLY. However, VI's are not AI's.

They cannot self correct and they can only provide set interfaces. Hacking such a thing to provide false info should be simple. Engineers can Hack Geth with self correcting AI and cause them to attack allied platforms, SELF CORRECTING AI.

[DarthSyphilis59]

AllegedVixEo wrote...

Frocharocha wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Frocharocha wrote...

I will throw the game out of the window.

Oh,ya...this is the most marture responce..(SARCASM)

Actually, i got two coppies of the game. LOL.

I will see your two copies of the game, and raise you a second Xbox!  My fiance and I bought two copies of the game and a second Xbox so we wouldn't have to fight over who gets a chance to play.  None of which will be exiting through a window.

I will see your two copies and two xboxes with my 2 xbox copies (1 collectors, 1 normal), and xboxes, and a collectors edition copy for the PC, and a copy of the collectors edition manual! I'm a nut. I know.

[dreman9999]

Senario wrote...



Read my post above, easy explaination. Works within Mass Effect universe. If modern day engineers have omnitools which they can use to hack self correcting AI, then the ancient and more advanced Protheans would have had much better tech to hack with. Shut down VI, Hack it to give false reports of indoctrination. Win.

You...who is saying I'm using a baselss assumption, is trying to counter it with base less assumptions?
Your forgeting those "hackers" have to get in the base first. Do you think the base just has a door with no living guard who are not watching and checking the VI?
No matterhow you cut it. The VI  clearly does not have the capability to sense all forms of indoctrination.

[ReiCow]

OP, I'd be happy (as I believed that would happen all along), so long as it is FREE. Charging for the end of a game as DLC is a horrible precedent. The game already cost $80.. we deserve it complete.

Moo.

[Tiax Rules All]

torudoom wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
...
My other problem with the IT theory is that Shepard apparently makes a jump from partial indoctriation with minimal side effects to full blown hallucinations and mental delusion instantly, entirely unheard of.

Agreed. I don't think indoctrination is defined well enough in its details to be used as a plot device the way IT demands.

your wrong. this would have been gradual all througout the series. and through mass effect 3. with the nightmares and vent boy. and other hints. and yes the pressure is most certainly turned up at the end but why is that crazy?

the codex for IT explains alot. and the galaxy does not fully understand indoctrination so why do you expect a metagaming device to do it for you. No dude is gonna pop onto the screen to tell you "this is now indoctrination, take note" the game assumes you are smart enough to see them. The codex tells you all you NEED to know. not everything there IS to know.

[Saberchic]

While I think the indoctrination theory has some merit, it still has holes. I just replayed the ending again, and I'm going to go with my first impression: I'm supposed to take it at face value. There was no indoctrination.

If the dlc is the indoctrination theory, they have a lot of explaining to do. How did the arms get open if Shep never left Earth and it's all in his head? Where the heck was Joker flying to and how did my teammates get on the Normandy? Who was the "Catalyst" really? etc.

[Tov01]

ReiCow wrote...

OP, I'd be happy (as I believed that would happen all along), so long as it is FREE. Charging for the end of a game as DLC is a horrible precedent. The game already cost $80.. we deserve it complete.

Moo.

I would love it to be free, but I doubt EA would let that happen.

[Tiax Rules All]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Javik says this.... http://www.youtube.c...K1id-kKw#t=763s
If you got a VI that can sense indctrinated sleeper agents  in your ranks and you later find out that you still were betrade by indoctrinated agents that were in your ranks...It's clear that the VI is not suited to detact indoctrinated Agents.

good show. beat me to it..

He says there were betrayers in their ranks.  They never said that the VI failed.  You can't even prove these agents were in a position where the VI could detect them.  The fact remains:

In every case where we have seen a Prothean VI near indoctrinated presences, it has detected them, unless those safeguards are deactivated as happened to Vendetta after it was captured by Cerberus.  It is more likely that such VIs were similarly sabotaged than them developing a never once referenced unreliability.

as to bolded.. i simply dissagree. You are stretching and dont see it. Javik had a VI built into his wrist thingy. I would assume others had them too. You say they "sabotaged or avoided them" I say they failed.

I feel my idea is the correct one. and i just used another in game piece of evidence. so far I have seen only "supposition" as you say for yours.

[Heimdall]

dreman9999 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...*snip*

So how do you get around Vendetta being able to detect indoctrinated individuals?  That's the point where it falls down to me.  All I've encountered in respose are baseless excuses about partial indoctrination and unreliability of it's detection capability, with zero evidence.

How do people miss the fact that the prothean VI is the same Vi on the prothean crusible project that was stopped because of indoctrinated sleeper agents. 
Use some deductive resoning.
How can something that fail to detect something then be dependible to detect something now. And shepard is in the process of indoctrination, which has states, so he would not be detected.

What VI on the Prothean Crucible project?  What are you talking about?

The one you find on thessia. I thought you where taking about the same VI...Even then 
Vendetta still say the prothean were betryed by indctrinated sleeper agents any way. The fact that everyone is not being lead by the prothean empire now is a clear sign that the VI are not dependible for detecting people ing the prosses of indoctrination.

You're assuming it failed to detect them, or that they didn't go out of their way to avoid being close enough to detect.  This is all assuming it was even on the old crucible project.  This isn't proof of non reliability.

If they were able to bypass prothean security that was scanning for indoctrination wether they were staying far away or not then the VIs failed in their job to detect indoctrination.

Again, suppositions galore.  Was there prothean security scanning for indoctrination?  As Javik said, everything was chaos.  Even then, perhaps, knowing of such security, they were able to bypass it.  This is not indicstion of anything unless you can prove such systems were in place or even that the indoctrinated faction had to be that close to the project to sabotage it.

My other problem with the IT theory is that Shepard apparently makes a jump from partial indoctriation with minimal side effects to full blown hallucinations and mental delusion instantly, entirely unheard of.

1. The chaos was no at the level your thinking...Remeber, Javik said the git the best worrior to be put in cryo. That's mean they had some order to organize it. The chaos was just in know what as going on through out the empire.
2.Your forgeting that a being can be indoctrinated by just being near a reaper. Shep was cut down by Harbinger...And Harbinger had to do to finish the process of indocrination is to say nearSeps body.

Not in seconds, not in mere moments.  Indoctrination has never been shown to progess that fast.  At most we've seen it happen in hours or days, never seconds and minutes.

According to Javik, the various parts of the Empire were cut off, the right hand hadn't the faintest idea what the left was doing.  He hadn't even heard of the Ilos research or the crucible.  The empire is fractured into small groups even if some of them were well organized.  Great chaos seems appropriate to me.