95 réponses à ce sujet

[marshalleck]

It's the syphilis. Makes people craaaaazy.

[Maria Caliban]

Dragon Age has some of the best characters of any Bioware game. Loghain is not one of them.



So.. syphilis.That's as good as any other explaination.

[DariusKalera]

Simple fact is, we do not know if the battle at Ostagar was winnable or not. However, from the strategy session before hand, there is doubt voiced about whether the troops they had, with or without Loghain, would be enough.



If I remember right, the conversation goes something like this:



Loghain: "Majesty, we do not have enough troops."

Cailan: "Then we will wait for the Orlesians."

Loghain: "We don't need them."

Cailan: "Then our current troops will have to suffice, wont they?"



Yes, I know that it is not word for word, but it is close.



To me this says that both Cailan and Loghain knew that they did not have enough troops. If they did have enough, why invite the Orlesians in to begin with? Even Duncan knew that there weren't enough troops in Fereldan. Hence why the PC had to recover the treaties.



The only line in the game that states that the battle was winnable was afterwords when Alistair states that the king almost had them beaten. But, this is something that he could never have known since he was in the tower with the PC.



All this aside though, I think the defeat at Ostagar is not just Loghain's fault, but also Cailan's. They both acted like fools and let their pride, and also in Cailan's case, glory hunting, to blind them to the realities of what was going on.



Though, I will say i think Loghain's fear that the Orleasian's would use this as a pretext to invade Fereldan again was justified. How he handled it was totally wrong of course, but his fears we understandable.



Its also easy to see from his perspective why Eamon needed to be poisoned and the Couslands wiped out. Both of these families had close ties to Orlais. Eamon through marriage and the Couslands from spending time in the Orlesian royal court. So if the Orlesians were allowed in, these would have been the two families to give them the most support. They had to go.

[izmirtheastarach]

All through the game I felt that there was going to be a big reveal. One of two things. Either he betrayed the king because he was being controlled by evil, or he was just a weak, imperfect human being. I find the latter the more emotionally effective. He did what he thought was right. Never to gain power, only because he thought only he could protect Fereldan. On my first playthrough, I really hated to kill him, so on my second I didn't. I think he deserves a chance at redemption.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Never to gain power, only because he thought only he could protect Fereldan.

People keep saying that as if it wasn't a blatant contradiction of itself.

If he thinks he's the only one who can protect Ferelden, and he forces people under his banner, then he wants power so he can control what Ferelden does.
All the crimes he committed were committed to keep himself in power and gain power over Ferelden so he could have his way. He did it gain power. Period.
He may not have done it because he lusted off of that power and it made him giddy with evil glee, but he did it all for his self-righteous power and that power alone.

[Vormaerin]

Loghain is a nationalist. He has spent his youth driving the Orlesians out of Ferelden and his later years protecting that freedom. He thinks that Cailen is a callow kid with no idea what's really involved in war. He believes the Grey Wardens are Orlesian agents, since many of them are from Orlais and they advocate bringing more Orlesian soldiers (Wardens and otherwise) into Ferelden.



Like most of the population, he believes the lies spread over the last 400 years about there being no more Blights. He believes that the darkspawn attack is just raiders, not an Archdemon led major threat. He thinks the Wardens are filling Cailen's head with fantasies of glory so he'll give them power or let the Orlesian army in to take it directly.



I think the Cousland thing was just typical brutal Fereldan politics. The Couslands used to servants of the Howes quite a ways back. They seized control of the arldom by force when the Howe cousin who ruled there died. Arl Howe finally felt he had a chance to avenge his family. That kind of Arl vs Arl warfare is not entirely unusual in Fereldan according to the Lore pages.



Apparently Loghain directly ordered the poisoning of Arl Eamon, though that seems a little odd to me. I am assuming that Eamon was supporting Cailen's ideas about the Wardens and Orlesian troops because otherwise it makes no sense at all.



I believe that Loghain intended to sacrifice the Gray Wardens at Ostagar by having his men not light the signal until it was too late to save the front lines. Then he and Cailen would win the battle. I believe that he decided to let Cailen die when Cailen refused to stay off the front lines and told Loghain to shut up because he was king and would bring the Orlesians in if he wanted to. I believe the decision to retreat instead of fight was because Loghain assumed the Gray Wardens (PCs) had lit the beacon on time, so the choice was either save the Wardens or leave. He couldn't blame the delay on the watchtower any more.



Loghain was utterly convinced that the Orlesians were behind the whole thing in an attempt to reconquer Ferelden. Everything he did was to save Ferelden from the Orlesians, putting Kingdom before King. In his mind, Cailen was the traitor. Of course, he was completely wrong about the nature of the threat so all his actions were bogus.



He did not just say "hmm, I want to be King" nor did he believe he was a traitor. He was obsessively paranoid about the Orlesians to the point of toppling his reason.

[Akka le Vil]

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

As a strategist, I think Loghain realized that they couldn't win Ostagar without significant losses to his own army which would leave them weak to invasion from Orleis.

...

Because losing half of the army was NOT "significant losses" ?
Did you even think before writing ?
And with Darkspawns still rampaging in the country after that.
Yeah, right, make so much sense...

[Vormaerin]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote..

He may not have done it because he lusted off of that power and it made him giddy with evil glee, but he did it all for his self-righteous power and that power alone.

Right, exactly the the PC.

You are making a fatuous point.   No one is saying he wasn't trying to seize power.  Of course he was.    People were arguing about WHY he was trying to seize power.   Some people were saying he'd gone power mad and wanted to rule himself.  He did not do all this because he wanted to be King.  He did all this because he was a paranoid who believed that Cailan and the Wardens were selling out Ferelden to the Orlesians and it was his duty to save the country from him.

Does that change the net result of his actions?  No.    But I think most people agree that it makes a difference why things are done.   After all, the PCs are roaming all over the countryside killing and maiming their way to getting control of Ferelden, too.

[Vormaerin]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Because losing half of the army was NOT "significant losses" ?
Did you even think before writing ?
And with Darkspawns still rampaging in the country after that.
Yeah, right, make so much sense...

Yeah, I don't think he had any intention of losing whatever part of the army stood with the king (We don't actually know the %, do we?).   But he was dead set on have the Wardens destroyed and when Cailan insisted on standing with the Wardens and replacing Loghain's men in the Tower with more Wardens, he decided he had no choice.    Leaving Cailen and the Wardens alive to lead a Orlesian takeover was not going to happen.

I gather he felt that the Bannorn would rally around the war hero in time of war and crisis.   Then he'd have enough men to crush the darkspawn raiders and fend of Orlais.    But instead he ended up with a civil war and ended up losing his men killing other men he had expected to be part of his army.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DariusKalera wrote...

Simple fact is, we do not know if the battle at Ostagar was winnable or not. However, from the strategy session before hand, there is doubt voiced about whether the troops they had, with or without Loghain, would be enough.

To me this says that both Cailan and Loghain knew that they did not have enough troops. If they did have enough, why invite the Orlesians in to begin with? Even Duncan knew that there weren't enough troops in Fereldan. Hence why the PC had to recover the treaties.

Incorrect. You can never have enought firepower...erm..troops. You could allways use more.

The battle of Ostagar was very winabble, or no one would have fought. Cailan is eager, but not a fool. Duncan is no fool. Ostagar is not a position that's so important that you cna't abandon it, but it is very defensible. Notice that while some of hte soldiers are scared, the officers are confident in victory.
Do you really think the Orlesian reinforcement were big enough for them to conquer Ferelden with?

Vormaerin wrote...
You are making a fatuous point.   No one is saying he wasn't trying to seize power.  Of course he was.    People were arguing about WHY he was trying to seize power.   Some people were saying he'd gone power mad and wanted to rule himself.  He did not do all this because he wanted to be King.  He did all this because he was a paranoid who believed that Cailan and the Wardens were selling out Ferelden to the Orlesians and it was his duty to save the country from him.

Does that change the net result of his actions?  No.    But I think most people agree that it makes a difference why things are done.   After all, the PCs are roaming all over the countryside killing and maiming their way to getting control of Ferelden, too.

I think you will find that all the great dictators and tyrants also grabed power since tehy thought they knew what was best for their country.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 03 décembre 2009 - 09:00 .

[DariusKalera]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Incorrect. You can never have enought firepower...erm..troops. You could allways use more.

The battle of Ostagar was very winabble, or no one would have fought. Cailan is eager, but not a fool. Duncan is no fool. Ostagar is not a position that's so important that you cna't abandon it, but it is very defensible. Notice that while some of hte soldiers are scared, the officers are confident in voctory.

Yes, you can never have enough fire power, but you also do not invite in the country that occupied yours just 30 years ago either. 

How do you know it was winnable?  Simply because the king decided that they were going to fight there?  Duncan points out that the darkspawn outnumber their forces 2 to 1.  With odds in manpower going against you, nothing is "very winnable". 

As for Ostagar being defensable, apperently it wasn't.  If it was. then darkspawn wouldn't have gotten in so easily.  That, and Cailan's forces did not fight a defensive battle at Ostagar anyway.  The had some defenses set up around thier camp, but then they left them to fight the darkspawn in a relatively open area.  Which, with being out numbered, is a bad idea. 

The only officer that shows confidence in the battle plan is Cailan.  Loghain, by this time, has already decided he was pulling out so he was just humoring the king.  Duncan seemed to have doubts about its success or else he wouldm't have sent the PC after treaties to insure more man power.  He was at the king's side because it was his duty to be there.

Now, as for the soldier that tried to break rank and run, we have no proof that the person that stopped him was confident of victory.  He stopped him because you can not have some one break and run like that.  As soon as you have one run, a second one goes, then a third, and it just grows till you have dozens running, then hundreds.

Cailan was fighting for glory.  He wanted to be a hero like the ones in the legends and that clouded his judgement.  He was not just confident, but he was over confident and it cost him and his men thier lives.

[Vormaerin]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I think you will find that all the great dictators and tyrants also grabed power since tehy thought they knew what was best for their country.

Some times, yes. Sometimes they just want to loot the country or control stuff because they can.  But I don't see how that's relevant to the discussion regardless.  Is anyone denying that Loghain was setting himself up as a tyrant?   The original poster asked why Loghain was doing all this.   The answer is not  "because he wanted to be King".   The answer is "Because he thought Cailan and Duncan were selling out the country to Orlais and he had to save it."

I'm quite sure that if the Orlesian army and Orlesian wardens had never entered the discussion, Loghain would not have betrayed Cailan.

[SeanMurphy2]

If the Darkspawn horde at Ostager was much larger than expected, Loghain would lose a lot of his army and be tied down in the south. The Orlesian forces would be able to march into Ferelden under the pretense of offering support.



I don't know what really happened. But I think someone like Loghain would always be nervous about focusing too many resources on the Darkspawn in the South. While the Orlesians invade from the undefended North.

[Akka le Vil]

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

If the Darkspawn horde at Ostager was much larger than expected, Loghain would lose a lot of his army and be tied down in the south. The Orlesian forces would be able to march into Ferelden under the pretense of offering support.

And by retreating, it ends up the same, except that there is still the Darkspawns roaming free.

The stupidity of saying "lose half your forces retreating because by fighting you'd lose half your forces" is beyond mind-boggling.

[DariusKalera]

The smart thing to have done was, once the treaties were handed to over to Duncan, would have been to pull back to Lothering and then send emissaries to the dwarves and elves. Then, they could have had the extra manpower they needed without relying on Orlais.



You know, come to think of it, why did the PC have to go to the tower to enforce the treaty? They had obviously already agreed to help fight the darkspawn or else Wynne and the other mages would not have been there from the very beginning.

[SeanMurphy2]

Akka le Vil wrote...

And by retreating, it ends up the same, except that there is still the Darkspawns roaming free.

The stupidity of saying "lose half your forces retreating because by fighting you'd lose half your forces" is beyond mind-boggling.

He might have wanted to move his army into Northern Ferelden as soon as possible to deter an invasion from Orlais. And thought he could handle any Darkspawn incursion into Ferelden, not expecting them to invade so quickly.


But I agree that his decision does not make a lot of sense. I remember seeing the Ostager walkthough a year ago. And thinking Loghain would have some brilliant plan to handle the darkspawn. Or the Ostager attack was just a diversion by the Darkspawn for a major assault somewhere else. Or there was a major attack on Gwaren his home province. Or there was an actual attack by Orlais.

[MiG-77]

Akka le Vil wrote...


The stupidity of saying "lose half your forces retreating because by fighting you'd lose half your forces" is beyond mind-boggling.

In RL mediaval/classical time major battles ended usually losing side suffering catastrophical losses (dead, wounded, captured and routed). To it end so that losing side "only" lost half of its army was pretty rare.

[RVallant]

DariusKalera wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Incorrect. You can never have enought firepower...erm..troops. You could allways use more.

Yes, you can never have enough fire power, but you also do not invite in the country that occupied yours just 30 years ago either. 

How do you know it was winnable?  Simply because the king decided that they were going to fight there?  Duncan points out that the darkspawn outnumber their forces 2 to 1.  With odds in manpower going against you, nothing is "very winnable". 

As for Ostagar being defensable, apperently it wasn't.  If it was. then darkspawn wouldn't have gotten in so easily.  That, and Cailan's forces did not fight a defensive battle at Ostagar anyway.  The had some defenses set up around thier camp, but then they left them to fight the darkspawn in a relatively open area.  Which, with being out numbered, is a bad idea. 

The only officer that shows confidence in the battle plan is Cailan.  Loghain, by this time, has already decided he was pulling out so he was just humoring the king.  Duncan seemed to have doubts about its success or else he wouldm't have sent the PC after treaties to insure more man power.  He was at the king's side because it was his duty to be there.

Now, as for the soldier that tried to break rank and run, we have no proof that the person that stopped him was confident of victory.  He stopped him because you can not have some one break and run like that.  As soon as you have one run, a second one goes, then a third, and it just grows till you have dozens running, then hundreds.

Cailan was fighting for glory.  He wanted to be a hero like the ones in the legends and that clouded his judgement.  He was not just confident, but he was over confident and it cost him and his men thier lives.

Manpower doesn't account for anything in war. A small force can defeat a bigger force by use of strategy, this is a core of any war text book, Sun Tzu in particular.

2:1 is nothing on the battlefield particularly if the flanking assault occured as planned. If anything the strategy was quite a good one for the situation. Main force holds enemy in place, elite troops assault the flanks in a charge, pincer movement occurs, enemy in disarray, human army proceeds to over-run them or force a retreat and set up for the next day.

Ostagar was defensible, it's a bottleneck. They got in easily because as you pointed out it's not a clever idea to go out into the open with a small force and get surrounded and wiped out. But as already stated the strategy involved a flank surprise attack which wasn't forthcoming. Cailan doesn't deserve the blame for following the strategy laid out (he mentions it is specifically Loghain's own strategy in the build up) he fights because he has to and it's a winnable plan. Betrayal will obviously ruin any plan, by the time Duncan realised what had happened it was too late to do anything about it.

As for Duncan's doubts. I disagree. Duncan showed fore-sight as a Grey Warden. He covered the bases so to speak. Even if he were confidence of victory I would have no respect for him if he disregarded the treaties.

Whatever the case the blame for defeat at Ostagar is squarely at Loghain's hands. Not Cailan, he followed the procedure of a sovereign as per needed. To be fair to him as well, having won battles already and with a good plan in place there was no reason for him not to fight.

Further; Lothering isn't a good place to defend... It seemed to me to be wide open stretches of land, given the ease that you traverse up to there...

As for the treaties, that's Grey Warden alliances, obviously they didn't need to enforce them because the Circle of Magi was there on behalf of the King. It's a nice backup in the event that the King is killed or not bothering to fight which, is what happens.

[Vormaerin]

DariusKalera wrote...

The smart thing to have done was, once the treaties were handed to over to Duncan, would have been to pull back to Lothering and then send emissaries to the dwarves and elves. Then, they could have had the extra manpower they needed without relying on Orlais.

You know, come to think of it, why did the PC have to go to the tower to enforce the treaty? They had obviously already agreed to help fight the darkspawn or else Wynne and the other mages would not have been there from the very beginning.

Actually, Loghain suggested meeting up with Arl Eamon's forces.  To which Cailan said "Well, if that's the case, we should get wait for the Orlesians".   Cailan didn't want to wait and Loghain was never going to accept Orlesian help.

There was more mainpower available even without the elves, dwarves, and Orlesians.    Cailan refused to accept that is was needed.

The treaty in the Tower was for the mages to join the Gray Wardens.   They were helping the King of Ferelden at Ostagar, not the Gray Wardens. 

[nuculerman]

 The idea that Loghain retreated because the battle was unwinnable and only he realized it is complete and utter BS.  Not only was Howe murdering innocent nobles with Loghain's approval before that battle, but a blood mage was ordered to poison Arl Eamon before that battle.  Further, Cailan was willing to wait for Duncan's Orleisan reinforcements, even though he thought they didn't need them, and Loghain explodes at him and claims they don't need them.  Loghain and everyone else in the camp that the battle was winnable with their strategy.

Loghain retreated because he always planned on retreating.  He wanted Cailan dead because Cailan was a threat to Fereldan.  Cailan hero worshipped the Gray Wardens, and the Gray Wardens, since they were Orleisian, were going to use that to their advantage and take over Fereldan once again.  Everything he had sacrificed for the good of Fereldan independence was going to be lost because Cailan was stupid and immature.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DariusKalera wrote...
As for Ostagar being defensable, apperently it wasn't.  If it was. then darkspawn wouldn't have gotten in so easily.  That, and Cailan's forces did not fight a defensive battle at Ostagar anyway.  The had some defenses set up around thier camp, but then they left them to fight the darkspawn in a relatively open area.  Which, with being out numbered, is a bad idea. 

The only officer that shows confidence in the battle plan is Cailan.  Loghain, by this time, has already decided he was pulling out so he was just humoring the king.  Duncan seemed to have doubts about its success or else he wouldm't have sent the PC after treaties to insure more man power.  He was at the king's side because it was his duty to be there.

No. There are officers in the camp. You can talk to them and one high-raking one will comment how Ostagar is a nexcellent defensive position and that "we should score a DECISIVE victory even if outnumbered".

Also note that Loghain had at least half hte troops with him, so Cailian and Duncan weren't fighting a 2:1, but 4:1, becasue the basterd quit the field.

Duncan sent for the treaties because it's better safe tha nsorry. The blight won't end in the Archdemon doesn't show up. The darkspawn horde that attacked them wasn't the full force of hte darkspawn either.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 03 décembre 2009 - 10:44 .

[Vormaerin]

I have to agree that there is no evidence that the battle at Ostagar was unwinnable. Duncan's concern with the treaties was that, unlike Cailan, he did not believe that Ostagar would be the final battle. Duncan was concerned that they had won quite a few battles and still the Darkspawn army had grown.



I don't think Loghain intended to get rid of Cailan from the beginning. I think he decided that in the council chamber cut scene. But he clearly created the plan to cause the gray wardens to take massive casualties or be destroyed entirely. I think he meant to save the day in the original plan, just too late for Duncan and crew. But once Cailan insisted on standing with the Wardens and told Loghain the Orlesians were welcome in the country as long as he was King, it was over for the spoiled golden boy.



I think you are overreacting to Howe's attack, though. The nobles of Ferelden fight amongst themselves all the time. I think one of the lore pages is a quote from one of the queens about how there had been 10 or 12 wars between bannorn in the year since she'd been crowned.



The Howes and the Couslands have been enemies for something like 300 years. The Couslands usurped the Arldom from relatives of Howe in the past and held it ever since. Howe's an evil bastard, but its not clear that Cailan had to die just because Howe did for the Couslands.

[Vormaerin]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Also note that Loghain had at least half hte troops with him, so Cailian and Duncan weren't fighting a 2:1, but 4:1, becasue the basterd quit the field.

People keep saying he lost half the army.   Is there ever a point where it states what percentage of the army is standing with the King?   In the council, I think they say the Gray Wardens will be the front.   I doubt the Wardens had enough men to be the anvil on their own, but I don't recall any discussion of how much of the rest of the army was actually in the valley.   It may well have not been anywhere near half the troops.     He may well have just lost the Gray Wardens, their mercenaries, and the King's bodyguard.    (Though I agree that there was probably more unless the Wardens were stronger than I thought).

[XOGHunter246]

There alot unexplained hence why they will make a squeal maybe things will be explained then or in a dlc

[Emryc]

This is a fantasy setting. Any talk of strategy is kind of redundant. Cailan's troops might have been outnumbered 2-1, but seeing that they had mages and the fact that 1 skilled warrior seems to equal 25 Darkspawn (if going by Ser Jory and your own experiences) at least, it would mean that even a token force could hold the Darkspawn at Ostagar.



However, since strategy does not dictate the story, Loghain had to quit the field. His exact motives are never quite clear. A obvious decision from the devs. I suppose his paranoia/hatred for Orlais (as that is depicted quite clearly in the game) was the obvious reason. Flemmeth's suggestion that he thought that the Blight was 'an army that can be outmaneuvred' (Since when does Flemmeth know about military strategy?) might also explain things.



Short story. He left the field, because he had to. Ha!