95 réponses à ce sujet

[fkirenicus]

marshalleck wrote...

It's the syphilis. Makes people craaaaazy.

[Akka le Vil]

MiG-77 wrote...

In RL mediaval/classical time major battles ended usually losing side suffering catastrophical losses (dead, wounded, captured and routed). To it end so that losing side "only" lost half of its army was pretty rare.

Actually, in reality, catastrophic losses very rarely occur (the usual being about 10-20 % of the overall forces for the loser). Hollywood and games have much, much higher fatality rates than history.

Losing half your forces is beyond catastrophic, and losing it for nothing is beyond both catastrophic and stupid. It's either a writing flaw or a sign that Loghain had really become completely mad, but people should stop trying to rationalize stupidity and attempt to show it as cleverness.

nuculerman wrote...

 The idea that Loghain retreated
because the battle was unwinnable and only he realized it is complete
and utter BS.  Not only was Howe murdering innocent nobles with
Loghain's approval before that battle, but a blood mage was ordered to
poison Arl Eamon before that battle.  Further, Cailan was willing to
wait for Duncan's Orleisan reinforcements, even though he thought they
didn't need them, and Loghain explodes at him and claims they don't
need them.  Loghain and everyone else in the camp that the battle was
winnable with their strategy.

Loghain retreated because he
always planned on retreating.  He wanted Cailan dead because Cailan was
a threat to Fereldan.  Cailan hero worshipped the Gray Wardens, and the
Gray Wardens, since they were Orleisian, were going to use that to
their advantage and take over Fereldan once again.  Everything he had
sacrificed for the good of Fereldan independence was going to be lost
because Cailan was stupid and immature.

This.

[TastyLaksa]

He was probably sick of Cailan's Jock attitude. The first time i met cailan i thought man if sheet hits the fan i'm not going to bail this guy out. And guess what happens?

[MiG-77]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Actually, in reality, catastrophic losses very rarely occur (the usual being about 10-20 % of the overall forces for the loser). Hollywood and games have much, much higher fatality rates than history.

Losing half your forces is beyond catastrophic, and losing it for nothing is beyond both catastrophic and stupid. It's either a writing flaw or a sign that Loghain had really become completely mad, but people should stop trying to rationalize stupidity and attempt to show it as cleverness.

Um, no. Example Battle of the Trebia (~75% roman forces destroyed), Battle of Lake Trasimene (~66% of roman forces killed/captured), Battle of Hattin (almost all crusaders killed) and Battle of Agincourt (75-85% of french forces killed). All sieges pretty much leaded to total slaugher of defenders if they did not surrender before attacker stormed the fortress, etc.
 
My point is that losing side has no way to disengage safelly from battle after it is started (if they turn to flee, they are just slaughtered by cavalry). Even when there are survivors, they are scattered all around and just probaly headed to home (hence I calculated routed unit as losses too). All in all, usually there were no army left after the battle for the losing side (but if general/king survived, he could ofcourse raise another one). Now ofcourse there are exceptions, but it was not the rule(IE Caesar at Battle of Dyrrhachium).

Modifié par MiG-77, 03 décembre 2009 - 02:20 .

[rumblefv]

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

I think that Loghain knew that the fight at ostagar was unwinnable but was unable to convince Cailin otherwise. He knew that he could either sacrifice his army at Ostagar or pull back and hopefully defend Ferelden. I mean let's face it Loghain would have preferred to defeat the horde at Ostagar so Cailin could just tell the Orlesions "nvm blight gone". As a strategist, I think Loghain realized that they couldn't win Ostagar without significant losses to his own army which would leave them weak to invasion from Orleis.

No, I'm certain Loghain knew they could have won the battle but that wasn't his goal. This was carefully orchestrated by Loghain to eliminate Cailin and the Grey Wardens altogether. Howe would not have attacked the Couslands without Loghain's plan to withdraw from Ostigar (which was why Cailin was baffled that Howe would do such a thing knowing the King would turn his army against him). Cailin did not know he was doomed there. 

Modifié par rumblefv, 03 décembre 2009 - 02:14 .

[ExistsAlready]

TastyLaksa wrote...

He was probably sick of Cailan's Jock attitude. The first time i met cailan i thought man if sheet hits the fan i'm not going to bail this guy out. And guess what happens?

Talk to Wynne at Ostagar right after meeting him. She explains why he's so hyped up on killing Darkspawn liek that.

[Itkovian]

Concerning Ostagar, I believe that the evidence we are provided suggests that the battle we are a part of was in fact winnable, if Loghain had sprung the trap (as it were).

They were in defensible position, and any military man will tell you that a force in such a position can handle two-to-one odds rather well. Given the numbers mentionned, I beleive that battle could have been won. And even if it had turned badly, with their position and numbers they would have been able to retreat and save the king/the grey wardens (heck, we know for a fact that survivors made it out of the battle as it was).

However, we must consider that the Battle of Ostagar was NOT the penultimate battle Cailan wanted. The Archdemon did not show up, and we know from our little forays in Orzammar that the larger part f the army was still assembling at the time. I believe that this is something that Loghain took into consideration.

In short, Loghain did not quit the field because he thought the Battle of Ostagar was unwinnable, but rather he suspected that more darkspawn would come and this situation would not be resolved quickly. This would mean, if Cailan remained in charge, that eventually the Orlaisians WOULD be called in (in fact, we know they were - we are told that 4 legions were turned back, alongside the Orlaisian Grey Wardens). This is not something Loghain was willing to accept, so he resolved to take power to preserve his homeland from what he perceived to be the greater threat.

Of course, Loghain was completely wrong about this, and his actions themselves were equally wrong. He let his fear and hatred of Orlais take hold of him, and did whatever he thought necessary to stop it. And of course, that was a Bad Thing.

Itkovian

[Akka le Vil]

MiG-77 wrote...

Um, no. Example Battle of the Trebia (~75% roman forces destroyed), Battle of Lake Trasimene (~66% of roman forces killed/captured), Battle of Hattin (almost all crusaders killed) and Battle of Agincourt (75-85% of french forces killed). All sieges pretty much leaded to total slaugher of defenders if they did not surrender before attacker stormed the fortress, etc.

You realize that these battles were famous BECAUSE of the extremely high casualty rates, right ?

My point is that losing side has no way to disengage safelly from battle after it is started (if they turn to flee, they are just slaughtered by cavalry). Even when there are survivors, they are scattered all around and just probaly headed to home (hence I calculated routed unit as losses too). All in all, usually there were no army left after the battle for the losing side (but if general/king survived, he could ofcourse raise another one). Now ofcourse there are exceptions, but it was not the rule(IE Caesar at Battle of Dyrrhachium).

First, you still consider that the battle was not winnable, while everything in the game tend to show the opposite.
Second, the major element of casualties in ancient battles (with, obviously, special cases) was the cavalry being able to charge and slaughter fleeing infantry. The darkspawn don't have cavalry, and Ostagar is a chokepoint, so an organized retreat would not have been as pyrric as the betrayal of Loghain.

[Akka le Vil]

Itkovian wrote...

However, we must consider that the Battle of Ostagar was NOT the penultimate battle Cailan wanted. The Archdemon did not show up, and we know from our little forays in Orzammar that the larger part f the army was still assembling at the time. I believe that this is something that Loghain took into consideration.

No.
Loghain is shown not believing this was a Blight.
And if he knew it was, then it's even MORE stupid to throw away half your forces when you'll require them even MORE in the days to come, and it would remove the (already pathetic) excuse of being more afraid of Orlais than the darkspawns.

[Walina]

abusing wrote...

The biggest complaint I have with this game is that it never explains why Loghain betrayed the king in the first place. People in the game say he is a reasonable man, a brilliant general, and that he is a well loved, legendary hero who never desired power. He seemed like it when you meet him in the game at first. He doesn't seem to hate Cailan.

On the other hand, it is vaguely speculated that he may have gone mad, and no other explanation is given. Sure, he seems completely reasonable when he defends himself at the landsmeet. He has answers that are actually believable when confronted with the atrocities you have uncovered, and he seems like he really wanted to do what was best for his country.

However, Alistair also sounds completely reasonable when he reminds you of the horrible things that Loghain did. Loghain's  Quitting the field at the battle that could have ended the blight, letting the country erupt in civil war, lying and blaming the disaster on the Gray Wardens, claiming the throne for himself, attempting to end the royal bloodline of Ferelden, breaking the law by arresting templars so a blood mage can poison Arl Eamon, allying himself with Howe, who tortures people and obviously claims power by brute force... how is that what's best for the country?

I just can't figure it out. Was Loghain a well meaning leader who did what he felt was necessary, was he a conspiring, power hungry, evil genius who desired the throne, or did he simply go mad with power and lose sight of what he stood for?

Is it supposed to be up for interpretation? Did Bioware want people writing paragraphs and paragraphs in analysis of the story? Doesn't this bother everyone else who plays the game?

Dang it, was it that hard to read dialogs in the game or what ?

1) Betray king Cailan (ok, he had his reason still hate that)
2) You became a traitor because of him (Loghain told everyone that you betrayed the king not him, oh cool~)
3) Jowan poisoned arl Emaon for Loghain (cause he pormised Jowan to be put back in the circle)
4) He asked Uldred (last boss of circle magic) to ally the circle to him
5) You've a reward on your head because you're a traitor (civilians in Lothering you beat up)
6) Loghain making a civil war to sumit all rebelius nobles (great, the Blight is not imporant to him)
7) He sold city elves for money.
8) He tried to kill you with Zevran (He didn't disagree with Howe)
9) He tried to kill you twice with Zevran friend
10) He denied what he can at Landmeet (Like hell, he didn't knw about Howe doing since he knew where was Anora)
11) He tried to accuse you for the kinapping of his daughter (thank god, she showed up)
12) He accuse / blame you to make things wrose (oh really? Didn't you united Ferelden while he was make his tupid civil war?)

I am not sure if I said everything, oh well if you still think he is innocent, then you should go support dictators in the real world, I am sure they must be also innocent :innocent:

Modifié par Walina, 03 décembre 2009 - 03:17 .

[ExistsAlready]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Itkovian wrote...

However, we must consider that the Battle of Ostagar was NOT the penultimate battle Cailan wanted. The Archdemon did not show up, and we know from our little forays in Orzammar that the larger part f the army was still assembling at the time. I believe that this is something that Loghain took into consideration.

No.
Loghain is shown not believing this was a Blight.
And if he knew it was, then it's even MORE stupid to throw away half your forces when you'll require them even MORE in the days to come, and it would remove the (already pathetic) excuse of being more afraid of Orlais than the darkspawns.

Loghain watched his mother raped and murdered by Orlesian soldiers. He's got a raging, pathalogical hatred of the Orlesians which manifests itself as fullblown paranoia, by the end he honestly believes the Grey Warden is an agent of Orlais sent to take his beloved Fereldan back for the Empress.

Loghain was mentally unstable. Sick in the head. Gone with the fairies. Whether or not his justification made any sense isn't an issue.

[JosieJ]

Itkovian wrote...


In short, Loghain did not quit the field because he thought the Battle of Ostagar was unwinnable, but rather he suspected that more darkspawn would come and this situation would not be resolved quickly.
Itkovian

I disagree.  I don't think that Loghain put a lot of credence in the theory (which is all it was at that point) that this was a Blight, but whether he did or not, I don't think that was the reason he quit the field.  I think he quit the field because he wanted to throw the Wardens to the wolves.  He argued strenuously for Cailan not to fight with them because he knew this was his strategy all along, and I'm not sure he actually wanted Cailan to die--although this is open to debate considering Cailan's fascination with the Wardens was well known.  When Cailan stubbornly insisted on fighting with the Wardens, Loghain either resigned himself to, or counted on, the fact that he would die alongside the Wardens, because backing down from his plan was not possible for him.  I'm not sure if he knew that darkspawn would take over the Tower of Ishal, but I think he never intended for a signal to be sent, which was why he was not pleased that Alistair and the PC were sent to make sure it got done. 

The thing is, if you speak to Loghain before the battle, he speaks of the Wardens with respect, so I don't think it was out of hatred for the Wardens that he wanted to eliminate them.  I think he was just so paranoid about Orlais taking over Ferelden again that he would do anything to avoid putting Orlesians in a position to do so.  After all, the Wardens had only recently been allowed back into Ferelden by Maric.  The reason they'd been kicked out of Ferelden in the first place was for mucking about with the succession, so maybe he figured that their putative neutrality was so much lip service, and that Orlesian Wardens would be loyal to Orlais.

As an aside:  I must re-read The Stolen Throne, but doesn't Flemeth tell Maric that Loghain would betray him several times, and that each betrayal would be worse than the last?  Sending Maric's (and Rowan's!) son to his death, deliberately or not, seems to me to be a major betrayal.

[Badpie]

I don't think Loghain was power hungry. I think at first he genuinely thought he was doing what was best for Ferelden, but he was obsessed and in his mind the ends came to justify the horrid means. And his blind hatred and fear of the Orlesians came to overshadow all else. He did go mad, essentially. Became a tyrant, became unreasonable and was willing to sacrifice EVERYTHING because of his unchecked obsession - an obession that surely didn't grow simply overnight.



I think Loghain was an awesome character and a brilliant man. And very human and flawed. In a way my heart went out to him because here is this brilliant man, a hero who is just ...SO WRONG and not only unwilling to see it, but jeopardizing everything he thinks he's saving.



Ultimately I simply had to put aside the respect and admiration I had for the man and judge him purely on his heinous, treasonous crimes. Guy lost his head...literally.

[Saurel]

Walina wrote...

12) He accuse / blame you to make things wrose (oh really? Didn't you united Ferelden while he was make his tupid civil war?)

I found this really dicky , especially since you aren't y'know Duncan or Riordan. You're just that dude or girl who got this **** thrown on you.

[RPGmom28]

I just assumed he was an Ammon Jerro. Mindless pursuit of a goal he felt to be lofty, though it crushed the skulls of those on the way.

[MiG-77]

Akka le Vil wrote...


You realize that these battles were famous BECAUSE of the extremely high casualty rates, right ?

They are famous because they are relatively well documented and they were decisive victories. In these battles losing side army ceased to exist. These kind of battles were norm in that time (if  commander believed that he could not win, then he refused to battle at all and marched his army away or to such a good position that opponent would not risk to attack. Opposing armies could watch/march around each other for weeks to get a such a position that it was adventage to yourself but not as much that other could not risk to battle. Ofcourse small skirmishes happened whole time)

First, you still consider that the battle was not winnable, while everything in the game tend to show the opposite.
Second, the major element of casualties in ancient battles (with, obviously, special cases) was the cavalry being able to charge and slaughter fleeing infantry. The darkspawn don't have cavalry, and Ostagar is a chokepoint, so an organized retreat would not have been as pyrric as the betrayal of Loghain.

Actually I didnt take any side in this I just commented that how severe historically losing armies casualties were. Also it is interesting to wonder how "flank attack" would have made any difference if darkspawn dont know fear (do they?). It is just a mob that  kills and get killed. To them I think it would have been no difference from what direction attack comes.

Also about that cavalry. It only needs that darkspawn are faster and/or can run longer to kill those fleeing infantry.

Modifié par MiG-77, 03 décembre 2009 - 03:55 .

[Chezdon]

When you put it like that, it reminds me of the politicians we have here in the UK.



Are they consciously destroying out country or do they honestly believe they have good intentions?



Good question - I guess BioWare will know the answer to your Q about Loghain though.

[Saurel]

Chezdon wrote...



Good question - I guess BioWare will know the answer to your Q about Loghain though.

And the answer is "They drink a lot and try to over compensate for a lost love with excessive violence."

[DariusKalera]

Itkovian wrote...

Concerning Ostagar, I believe that the evidence we are provided suggests that the battle we are a part of was in fact winnable, if Loghain had sprung the trap (as it were).

They were in defensible position, and any military man will tell you that a force in such a position can handle two-to-one odds rather well. Given the numbers mentionned, I beleive that battle could have been won. And even if it had turned badly, with their position and numbers they would have been able to retreat and save the king/the grey wardens (heck, we know for a fact that survivors made it out of the battle as it was).

However, we must consider that the Battle of Ostagar was NOT the penultimate battle Cailan wanted. The Archdemon did not show up, and we know from our little forays in Orzammar that the larger part f the army was still assembling at the time. I believe that this is something that Loghain took into consideration.

In short, Loghain did not quit the field because he thought the Battle of Ostagar was unwinnable, but rather he suspected that more darkspawn would come and this situation would not be resolved quickly. This would mean, if Cailan remained in charge, that eventually the Orlaisians WOULD be called in (in fact, we know they were - we are told that 4 legions were turned back, alongside the Orlaisian Grey Wardens). This is not something Loghain was willing to accept, so he resolved to take power to preserve his homeland from what he perceived to be the greater threat.

Of course, Loghain was completely wrong about this, and his actions themselves were equally wrong. He let his fear and hatred of Orlais take hold of him, and did whatever he thought necessary to stop it. And of course, that was a Bad Thing.

Itkovian

While Ostagar was defensable, the king did not fight a defensive battle.  He charge out from behind his defenses which makes them useless.

Now, if a Orlesian legion is roughly equal to the size of a Roman legion then the numbers of those turned away ranged from 16,000 to 20,000 and this is not counting the Grey Wardens.  With numbers like that, yeah, Loghain has a right to be paranoid.

[Dark83]

imported_beer wrote...
 In the game he just went full retard.

"You went full retard, man. Never go full retard."

Edit: I'm just quoting Tropic Thunder and directing that at Loghain, not imported_beer - just for the record.

Modifié par Dark83, 03 décembre 2009 - 05:37 .

[Dark83]

DariusKalera wrote...

While Ostagar was defensable, the king did not fight a defensive battle.  He charge out from behind his defenses which makes them useless.

Are you saying Loghain couldn't help because of this?
If you are, that's just being stupid. The reason they didn't fight a defensive battle was because their strategist, you know, the tactical genius called Loghain, told them not to. It was his battle plan. The Grey Wardens obeyed (as Duncan will explicitly point out if you question the king's orders), and Loghain had to explain the plan to the king.

If you're saying "Loghain couldn't have helped anyways because of the battle plan", then you've conveniently ignored the fact that he was the one who put them in that situation. He set them up to die.

[abusing]

Walina wrote...

abusing wrote...

The biggest complaint I have with this game is that it never explains why Loghain betrayed the king in the first place. People in the game say he is a reasonable man, a brilliant general, and that he is a well loved, legendary hero who never desired power. He seemed like it when you meet him in the game at first. He doesn't seem to hate Cailan.

On the other hand, it is vaguely speculated that he may have gone mad, and no other explanation is given. Sure, he seems completely reasonable when he defends himself at the landsmeet. He has answers that are actually believable when confronted with the atrocities you have uncovered, and he seems like he really wanted to do what was best for his country.

However, Alistair also sounds completely reasonable when he reminds you of the horrible things that Loghain did. Loghain's  Quitting the field at the battle that could have ended the blight, letting the country erupt in civil war, lying and blaming the disaster on the Gray Wardens, claiming the throne for himself, attempting to end the royal bloodline of Ferelden, breaking the law by arresting templars so a blood mage can poison Arl Eamon, allying himself with Howe, who tortures people and obviously claims power by brute force... how is that what's best for the country?

I just can't figure it out. Was Loghain a well meaning leader who did what he felt was necessary, was he a conspiring, power hungry, evil genius who desired the throne, or did he simply go mad with power and lose sight of what he stood for?

Is it supposed to be up for interpretation? Did Bioware want people writing paragraphs and paragraphs in analysis of the story? Doesn't this bother everyone else who plays the game?

Dang it, was it that hard to read dialogs in the game or what ?

1) Betray king Cailan (ok, he had his reason still hate that)
2) You became a traitor because of him (Loghain told everyone that you betrayed the king not him, oh cool~)
3) Jowan poisoned arl Emaon for Loghain (cause he pormised Jowan to be put back in the circle)
4) He asked Uldred (last boss of circle magic) to ally the circle to him
5) You've a reward on your head because you're a traitor (civilians in Lothering you beat up)
6) Loghain making a civil war to sumit all rebelius nobles (great, the Blight is not imporant to him)
7) He sold city elves for money.
8) He tried to kill you with Zevran (He didn't disagree with Howe)
9) He tried to kill you twice with Zevran friend
10) He denied what he can at Landmeet (Like hell, he didn't knw about Howe doing since he knew where was Anora)
11) He tried to accuse you for the kinapping of his daughter (thank god, she showed up)
12) He accuse / blame you to make things wrose (oh really? Didn't you united Ferelden while he was make his tupid civil war?)

I am not sure if I said everything, oh well if you still think he is innocent, then you should go support dictators in the real world, I am sure they must be also innocent :innocent:

That's the problem. He seems completely evil. However, it seems that everyone you talk to about him admires (or used to admire) him. He was a hero of Ferelden. He didn't seem to hate the Wardens or Cailan. He nearly gave everything to put Cailan's bloodline back on the throne. He didn't want Cailan to sacrifice himself by standing with the Wardens. Surely he would have tried to end the Blight at Ostagar. The strategy was probably his idea. He literally goes from total hero to total villain when the beacon is lit and he decides to quit the field. After that, he commits unbelievable atrocities like a completely mad tyrant. It seems he literally just completely switched from hero to villain instantly. Why? It seems everyone is just as split and confused on the subject as me. Why wouldn't the game explain this? Is it really just a flaw? A major flaw in the plot? They couldn't explain it?

[vocalemuse]

All I know is the one achievement I'll never get is the one for Loghain killing the archdemon because I'll never let him live.

I'm totally not vengeful or anything, nope... >>;

Modifié par vocalemuse, 05 décembre 2009 - 04:38 .

[abusing]

Yeah. Even when I wanted to let him live, I felt too bad about betraying Alistair and had to reload. If I let him live, it will be temporary to see if I can talk to him eventually.

[Saurel]

I don't know after Loghain surrenders, I just wanted to let him live. It was like a violent drunk guy realizing he went out of control and seems kinda sad about but is too manly to beg or anything.



His presence is felt so minimally in the whole story....that it didn't help me relate to Alistair. I can understand peoples point. But its just with all the treaty gathering. The whole Loghain hatred gets severely dove-tailed.