95 réponses à ce sujet

[DariusKalera]

Dark83 wrote...

DariusKalera wrote...

While Ostagar was defensable, the king did not fight a defensive battle.  He charge out from behind his defenses which makes them useless.

Are you saying Loghain couldn't help because of this?
If you are, that's just being stupid. The reason they didn't fight a defensive battle was because their strategist, you know, the tactical genius called Loghain, told them not to. It was his battle plan. The Grey Wardens obeyed (as Duncan will explicitly point out if you question the king's orders), and Loghain had to explain the plan to the king.

If you're saying "Loghain couldn't have helped anyways because of the battle plan", then you've conveniently ignored the fact that he was the one who put them in that situation. He set them up to die.

No, I'm saying it because Ostagar, as a defensive position and the idea that therefore the battle was winnable, keeps coming up.  The defenses of Ostagar are a moot point because they were not used as defenses during the battle.

Was it Loghain's plan that had them charge out?  Yes.

Did he plan on them getting wiped out?  Yes again.  Though I think he would have preferred that the king stay back with him and live.

If he had stuck to the plan, would the battle have been winnable?  We do not know, but I doubt it. 

I do think Loghain was justified in worrying about the Orlesians.  Twenty thousand, or more, troops on your border is enough to give anyone pause and I think Cailan was naive in thinking that the problems that his country had with them were a thing of the past.  He was also naive if he could not realize that having Orlesian chevaliers in country would not sit well with the population.  Blight or no Blight.

In all likelyhood, if they had been allowed in, Fereldan would have erupted into a civil war between those that still remembered the last Orlesian occupation and the crimes commited during it, and those that thought those feeling were things of the past.

Modifié par DariusKalera, 05 décembre 2009 - 05:43 .

[Vicious]

Loghain is pretty unrelatable. But the hatred you're supposed to feel for him is WAY too forced. Yeah he's a jerk, yeah he says bad things about you. So does every other enemy in the game. Yeah so his actions wind up with Duncan and Cailan's death. Duncan's death is sad, but Cailan was pretty useless and would have died trying to kill the Archdemon by himself.



Loghain's presence in the overall story is pretty low.



That said his character MAKES NO SENSE in the game. He's too crazy and evil, then does a 180 and becomes too good. Hell in an ending where I sacrificed myself and let him live, the epilogue said he served the Grey Wardens exceptionally well until he felt the Calling and went into the Deep Roads and died bravely, mourned by his brethren.



WTF. Im not sure whats more forced -his evilness or his goodness.

[DariusKalera]

Vicious wrote...

Loghain is pretty unrelatable. But the hatred you're supposed to feel for him is WAY too forced. Yeah he's a jerk, yeah he says bad things about you. So does every other enemy in the game. Yeah so his actions wind up with Duncan and Cailan's death. Duncan's death is sad, but Cailan was pretty useless and would have died trying to kill the Archdemon by himself.

Loghain's presence in the overall story is pretty low.

That said his character MAKES NO SENSE in the game. He's too crazy and evil, then does a 180 and becomes too good. Hell in an ending where I sacrificed myself and let him live, the epilogue said he served the Grey Wardens exceptionally well until he felt the Calling and went into the Deep Roads and died bravely, mourned by his brethren.

WTF. Im not sure whats more forced -his evilness or his goodness.

Yeah, I think the lack of a well defined "evil" really hurts.  The evil of the Blight and the evil of Loghain really work against each other in the telling of the story with each losing out and neither feeling as evil as they probably should.

[SeanMurphy2]

I would love to hear about any changes to the Ostager scene or the Loghain character during development.

I think there was a demo of Ostager back in 2004. So presumably it was one of the first things written. Loghain may have had different reasons back then and events afterwards may have happened differently.

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 05 décembre 2009 - 06:54 .

[Korva]

I was a tad disappointed with Loghain. Not having read the books, I feel no attachment to the guy though what I heard about his role in them, I predict I would not like it much. Still, I was really hoping that the trailer bits of the Ostagar battle were meant to be deliberately misleading in showing Loghain as the bad guy who betrays his people and his king. It just felt so predictable, the grumpy dark-haired man with the weird eyes backstabbing the Golden Boy. I'd have preferred for Loghain to be significantly less "evil" -- hard, maybe, and paranoid but not so totally past any line where my character would consider letting him live.

[Elvhen Veluthil]

It's true that Longhain doesn't make much sense in the story when you play it. I understood that he was supposed to be the main villain when I battled the Archdemon in the end, which left me without a villain that I could relate to. And a game without a strong villain cannot get epic.

[SeanMurphy2]

Maybe the story is meant to be Ferelden. One incident at Ostager has flow on effects for different groups and parts of the Kingdom. A Song of Ice and Fire had the element. Different parties are reacting to events and to each other's moves.



I expected Loghain to be one of several political players in the mid game. But that structure is probably too complex for a game.

[Tsaritsyn]

On the battle plan, there's not really enough information in the story given to determine what the outcome would have been.  It is, however, not unreasonable to believe that Cailan's "anvil" force was the smaller of the two - designed to be small but elite to draw in the enemy and pin it in place while Loghain's larger "hammer" force attacked from a more vulnerable flank.

Where this falls down a bit to me is that this is not a historical battle and the enemy is not human.  If it's truly a mindless horde of monsters then they're not going to be all that phased by things that would undermine a human force.  They presumably don't have much of a base camp to fall back on, don't have much in the way of vulnerable flanks or unprotected supporting troops, and don't seem to care much about friendly casualties.  We pretty much only see them flee after the Archdemon is destroyed, which means that if the horde is truly without limit then there are really only two reasons to expend troops in battle: to defend civilians or important resources (which only delays the end), and to reach the Archdemon so the Wardens can do their thing.  If the blight is more like a swarm of man-sized, cannibalistic locusts than an army, then you'd think that a different set of rules would apply to fighting them.

If we want to rationalize a bit, this is another way of saying that it makes at least as much sense that this battle plan was designed to accomodate the young king's delusions of glory while preserving the bulk of the army for Loghain's use as it was designed to actually wipe out the enemy.

[cpip]

Tsaritsyn wrote...

We pretty much only see them flee after the Archdemon is destroyed, which means that if the horde is truly without limit then there are really only two reasons to expend troops in battle: to defend civilians or important resources (which only delays the end), and to reach the Archdemon so the Wardens can do their thing.  If the blight is more like a swarm of man-sized, cannibalistic locusts than an army, then you'd think that a different set of rules would apply to fighting them.

Of course, it's worth noting that few of these humans had ever seen a Darkspawn before, let alone an army of them, and were going off a combination of 400-year-old legends and whatever info they got from the Grey Wardens.  They can be forgiven for thinking the fight would be much like the wars they DID know how to fight, against human (or possibly qunari) opponents.

[FF7Geek]

all of this will be explained in the new add on "return to ostagar".. which is out this fall i think ..

[Taleroth]

RPGmom28 wrote...

I just assumed he was an Ammon Jerro. Mindless pursuit of a goal he felt to be lofty, though it crushed the skulls of those on the way.

Ammon Jerro was awesome.  He didn't hold any delusions about what he was doing.   He was saving Faerun AND killing people who annoyed him.  He didn't confuse the two into one thing.

And when he joins you, he doesn't get all weepy.

Modifié par Taleroth, 05 décembre 2009 - 05:51 .

[Ulicus]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

And how do you justify the events of Highever and the poisoning of Arl Eamon, both of which happened before Ostagar?
Loghain was scheming for the throne while the king was still alive. That's treason. He killed the king on purpose to get him out of the way, not because it was a tactical decision not to reinforce him.

It's not hard to explain Loghain's actions, because he was driven by intense fear. Justifying those actions is a completely different story.

Arl Eamon wasn't poisoned before Ostagar: Duncan gives Cailan a message from him the second you arrive at camp.

Duncan:Your uncle reminds you that he can have his forces here within the week"
Cailan: Ha, Eamon just doesn't want to miss out on the glory!"

If Loghain was behind the events that occured at Highever, I don't think it was anything to do with plotting to take the throne. It probably had more to do with the Coulsands being on good terms with Orlais and Teyrn Bryce likely supporting the decision to await the arrival of Orleisan chevaliers.

If Loghain was plotting to kill the king, specifically, why did he fight so hard to get Cailan away from the front lines? He was willing to sacrifice the King, yes... but he certainly didn't *want* to.

He believes the Grey Wardens are Orlesian agents, since many of them
are from Orlais and they advocate bringing more Orlesian soldiers
(Wardens and otherwise) into Ferelden.

(Can't remember who I'm quoting, sorry)

Yeah, I'm not totally convinced about this. If you play a female character, you learn very early on that despite his unwillingness to put all his faith with them, Loghain actually does have respect for the Wardens.

Loghain: You're pretty for a Warden. Don't let anyone tell you that you don't belong. The first Grey Warden Maric brought to Ferelden was a woman -- best warrior I've ever seen.

Modifié par Ulicus, 05 décembre 2009 - 07:58 .

[TeleProd]

I thought Loghain was a great character and a great villain. I've read both Dragon Age books and they give Loghain a lot of extra character. I believe his mistrust for Orlesians and sense of duty for Ferelden went too far and drove him into blind madness. When Cailan wanted to face the darkspawn with the Grey Wardens he saw a weak king wanting to fight with a group of questionable motives and actions. Cailan asked Orlesians for help, the very country that Loghain greatly helped free Ferelden from, sacrifing much. And in The Calling the Grey Wardens (from Orlesia) "lured" Maric onto a very dangerous quest, which Loghain didn't like one bit. He also probably knows his history and why Grey Wardens were exiled from Ferelden (I don't know because I haven't played Warden's Keep). All this drove him into action. He had to defend Ferelden, even if it meant sacrifing the King and the Grey Wardens. I have a feeling he didn't care much about either. Maric was Loghain's friend but Cailan wasn't Maric. I can't say how much threat he thought the Blight was, but he didn't seem to believe it that big of a deal, much like many others. The last Blight was over 400 years ago and many thought the Blights were gone for good. He was a great general with much success and probably thought he could beat the Blight without outside help.

TL;DR: Loghain saw a weak king working with a mistrustful group trying to undo all his hard work. That drove him into action and blind madness. He thought he could prevent/end the Blight by himself, without the Orlesians or the Grey Wardens.

Modifié par TeleProd, 05 décembre 2009 - 08:33 .

[th3warr1or]

Arl Howe was the bastard. Loghain just has a very warped view on things..

[th3warr1or]

Based on Loghains unnatural hated and paranoia of Orlais, I wouldn't be surprised if in his demented, warped mind, he found Cailan to be "betraying" Ferelden by calling in Orlesian allies.. so King or no, anyone who betrays Ferelden dies.

[Galad22]

Ulicus wrote...
Arl Eamon wasn't poisoned before Ostagar: Duncan gives Cailan a message from him the second you arrive at camp.

Duncan:Your uncle reminds you that he can have his forces here within the week"
Cailan: Ha, Eamon just doesn't want to miss out on the glory!"

If Loghain was behind the events that occured at Highever, I don't think it was anything to do with plotting to take the throne. It probably had more to do with the Coulsands being on good terms with Orlais and Teyrn Bryce likely supporting the decision to await the arrival of Orleisan chevaliers.

If Loghain was plotting to kill the king, specifically, why did he fight so hard to get Cailan away from the front lines? He was willing to sacrifice the King, yes... but he certainly didn't *want* to.

Arl Eamon WAS poisoned before Ostagar, that Knight of his you meet in Lothering, says so, if you ask him if Loghain was behind Eamon falling ill as well.

[TeleProd]

Galad22 wrote...

Ulicus wrote...
Arl Eamon wasn't poisoned before Ostagar: Duncan gives Cailan a message from him the second you arrive at camp.

Duncan:Your uncle reminds you that he can have his forces here within the week"
Cailan: Ha, Eamon just doesn't want to miss out on the glory!"

If Loghain was behind the events that occured at Highever, I don't think it was anything to do with plotting to take the throne. It probably had more to do with the Coulsands being on good terms with Orlais and Teyrn Bryce likely supporting the decision to await the arrival of Orleisan chevaliers.

If Loghain was plotting to kill the king, specifically, why did he fight so hard to get Cailan away from the front lines? He was willing to sacrifice the King, yes... but he certainly didn't *want* to.

Arl Eamon WAS poisoned before Ostagar, that Knight of his you meet in Lothering, says so, if you ask him if Loghain was behind Eamon falling ill as well.

Even if that is true, which it might very well be, Loghain probably didn't make up his plan on the spot. The call for Orlesians' help and strategies with the Grey Wardens were probably made before leaving Denerim. Loghain saw what he had to do at Ostagar and put his own plans into motion. Poisoning Eamon would probably take much less time than organizing an army and moving it from Denerim to Ostagar. Arl Howe also had time to attack Highever.

Modifié par TeleProd, 05 décembre 2009 - 08:48 .

[Ulicus]

Galad22:
Oh, yes, you're right -- Ser Donall tells us that the Arl fell ill before the King died, so Duncan must have picked up the message just before that.

Still, that doesn't necessarily mean that Loghain was "scheming for the throne" before Ostagar -- that's certainly an interpretation but it's not the one that best fits what we see on screen. Was he planning for the worst (Cailan's death)? Almost certainly. He was willing to sacrifice the King if it came to that. Was he outright planning Cailan's death? Doesn't look like it.

Wheels within wheels. Loghain is attempting to be the "Crazy Prepared" of Ferelden.

"Right, well what if I can't snap Cailan out of his fool notions? He'll die. Darn. I can't imagine that'll go down well with Eamon... he won't understand and mess the whole thing up. Better make sure he's taken care of before anything else goes down, if Cailan sees reason then I'll make sure he's cured soon enough."

Or, in other words:

Loghain: ... pray that [Cailan] is amenable to wisdom.
PC: And if he isn't?
Loghain: Then simply *pray*

Again, the fact of the matter is that Loghain absolutely did not want Cailan on the front lines. If he was scheming for the Throne, specifically, why not encourage him? I suppose you could argue that he was actually worried that Cailan had a greater chance of *surviving* amongst the Wardens, and he wanted to assassinate him in his tent or something... but, eh... I don't buy it.

Don't get me wrong:  I'm not saying that Loghain isn't an utter bastard. I'm just saying that he wasn't scheming for the Throne. He doesn't want it*. He wants Ferelden safe and (incorrectly) believes that his way is the right way to go about it.

* You could argue that he *might as well* be scheming for the throne, however, if his policy is to kill Kings he feels are too inexperienced to know to follow his lead.  It probably didn't help that Cailan, though a noble man, *was* pretty foolish and incapable of arguing his own points effectively.

Modifié par Ulicus, 05 décembre 2009 - 09:04 .

[TeleProd]

Ulicus wrote...

Still,that doesn't necessarily mean that Loghain was "scheming for the
throne" before Ostagar -- that's certainly an interpretation but it's
not the one that best fits what we see on screen. Was he planning for
the worst (Cailan's death)? Almost certainly. He was willing to
sacrifice the King if it came to that. Was he outright planning
Cailan's death? Doesn't look like it.

Cailan was weak king. It was said many times in the game. Queen Anora was running the show behind scenes, and her father had much control over her. So, even if Cailan had survived, Loghaid would've had a pretty strong grip. I agree that Loghain didn't want Cailan to die. He was after all Maric's son, his daugher's wife and the king of Ferelden. Loghain plotted behind Cailan's back thinking he could control the situation even with Cailan alive.

Modifié par TeleProd, 05 décembre 2009 - 09:08 .

[abusing]

Vicious wrote...

Loghain is pretty unrelatable. But the hatred you're supposed to feel for him is WAY too forced. Yeah he's a jerk, yeah he says bad things about you. So does every other enemy in the game. Yeah so his actions wind up with Duncan and Cailan's death. Duncan's death is sad, but Cailan was pretty useless and would have died trying to kill the Archdemon by himself.

Loghain's presence in the overall story is pretty low.

That said his character MAKES NO SENSE in the game. He's too crazy and evil, then does a 180 and becomes too good. Hell in an ending where I sacrificed myself and let him live, the epilogue said he served the Grey Wardens exceptionally well until he felt the Calling and went into the Deep Roads and died bravely, mourned by his brethren.

WTF. Im not sure whats more forced -his evilness or his goodness.

That's for certain. It seems like both his good and his evil are both unclearly forced. As good as this game is, I can't help feeling that they just missed the mark on making a bad guy. Sure, it could be explainable, but Loghain is the bad guy! He's the antagonist! The "villain"! It doesn't seem right that he's split between being a good guy and a bad guy. Make him go mad with power to the very death, or make him completely surrender and admit he was wrong. Instead, we get to either kill him, despite the fact that he is made out to be a hero as much as he is made out to be a villain, or allow him to live and become a hero once again. Could they really not have made him well defined as "evil"? Despite the heroic background he has in the books, he seems drastically underdeveloped for a main character in the actual game.

[Ulicus]

You either die a villain, or live long enough to see yourself become the hero.