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[Semi-Sweet Serpent Charmer]

Mulling this over, today:

I've noticed a trend in all straight female romance options for players in this game.  Bioware does a relatively good job of creating varying characters and personalities in their romance options and making them interesting despite their differences from the classic romantic hero and heroine archetypes.  There's usually, for both men and women, a "good" guy/girl, a "bad" guy/girl, and sometimes someone who occupies the middle ground. We'll call it the BG2 Triumvirate of Romance. 

I noticed that basically, both the romance options straight females get (Thane and Jacob don't really count, now, do they) are pretty straight laced.  Even Garrus with his "rebelliousness" (turian rebelliousness is akin to that of most strict Protestant school kids who sneak out a few times before they're caught and never do it again, or get a few people killed by gang members.) (wait...) is still a good guy and a straight shooter; he follows orders, cleans and calibrates the guns and basically is a good soldier, like most Turians are.  Kaiden...don't get me started.  I don't even think he's even smoked a cigarette in his life. He's in the military and he has NO tattoos.  And he's Canadian*.

I know they tried to touch on the realm of mysterious assasin ninja character whose stoic but poetic persual of the female heroin usually balances out the paladin-like friendly nice guy who's fumbling yet honest.  Thane definitely took up the reigns for that archetype in ME2, but he kinds of dies after getting almost no attention at all, even in ME2 (he's usually a later pick-up in all playthroughs as his dossier doesn't show up til you've gathered a few people. I may be wrong, but this is how I rememebr it)   Jacob was kind of just another Kaiden, except not as well written.

The straight gents have, of course, Liara (who's good, despite her Shadow Brokeryness), Ashley (good) Miranda (somewhat neutral; she has the best intentions but will unquestioningly shoot a guy right in the face for trying to kill her, understandably) and Jack (definitely a "bad girl").  All four of these ladies seem to be well developed and handle multiple romance archetypes neatly so that you can experience love with different "types" of people, or just persue a character that meets your tastes better.

Now I'm not complaining; this is not a **** fest about how straight female players got screwed again.  I'm more curious as to why someone like Vega, who could be a perfect renegade foil and romance option, wasn't romanceable.   Should we have had a "bad boy" akin to Jack's back girl archetype?  I definitely wouldn't have minded someone to shake things up a bit, even though I love our two "good" guys.


*We in the Pacific Northwest wholly believe that most Candians that live a few hours north of us are probably the nicest people to have ever existed on the whole planet.

[MACharlie1]

Short Cake Slayer wrote...

I noticed that basically, both the romance options straight females get (Thane and Jacob don't really count, now, do they) are pretty straight laced.  Even Garrus with his "rebelliousness" (turian rebelliousness is akin to that of most strict Protestant school kids who sneak out a few times before they're caught and never do it again, or get a few people killed by gang members.) (wait...) is still a good guy and a straight shooter; he follows orders, cleans and calibrates the guns and basically is a good soldier, like most Turians are.  Kaiden...don't get me started.  I don't even think he's even smoked a cigarette in his life. He's in the military and he has NO tattoos.  And he's Canadian*.

During his poker game with Vega, both of them have a lit cigarette in the ashtray. It's there regardless if they are there or not but I'm headcanoning it. Same with Liara during her conversation with Garrus. 

[frylock23]

Do you really want your male LI to risk being more bad@ss than your femShep?

[Semi-Sweet Serpent Charmer]

frylock23 wrote...

Do you really want your male LI to risk being more bad@ss than your femShep?

Wouldn't a badass romance option make a more suitable partner for Shepard than anyone else? I'm just saying. I don't like out-badassing my men all the time.  (I'm a female Marine so it happens more than one would think irl)    And Jack kind of...blew up an entire prison station all by her lonesome.  On her own I'd say she's probably more powerful than Shep; the only reason why she doesn't rip your face off is because Shep's supposedly such an amazing leader that she chooses to follow. 

[Semi-Sweet Serpent Charmer]

MACharlie1 wrote...

Short Cake Slayer wrote...

I noticed that basically, both the romance options straight females get (Thane and Jacob don't really count, now, do they) are pretty straight laced.  Even Garrus with his "rebelliousness" (turian rebelliousness is akin to that of most strict Protestant school kids who sneak out a few times before they're caught and never do it again, or get a few people killed by gang members.) (wait...) is still a good guy and a straight shooter; he follows orders, cleans and calibrates the guns and basically is a good soldier, like most Turians are.  Kaiden...don't get me started.  I don't even think he's even smoked a cigarette in his life. He's in the military and he has NO tattoos.  And he's Canadian*.

During his poker game with Vega, both of them have a lit cigarette in the ashtray. It's there regardless if they are there or not but I'm headcanoning it. Same with Liara during her conversation with Garrus. 

 

HAHA Liara and Garrus sharing a smoke.  Isn't there some kind of dextro amino thing that keeps Garrus from lighting up or something?

[LadyofRivendell]

Kaiden's a bad boy, are you kidding? Constantly stealing his twin brother's identity, screwing the galaxy over, and I've also been told he whines just to annoy people.

Kaidan, however, I like the more "good guy" characters personally so he's great. Not all military men have tattoos, one of my older brothers is a First Lieutenant in the Marines (been in for 10 or 11 years, I forget which) and he's never smoked nor has any tattoos.

I get what you're saying, though, Renegade FemSheps really don't get their bad boys. I could see Vega filling that role... if he was a LI.

[Aver88]

I wouldn't call Jack a LI in ME3. She has 8! lines of romance dialogue. I didn't feel like I had a relationship with her

[CptData]

Aver88 wrote...

I wouldn't call Jack a LI in ME3. She has 8! lines of romance dialogue. I didn't feel like I had a relationship with her

This.
And the thread is about badboys.

[Aver88]

CptData wrote...
And the thread is about badboys.

I just wanted to point out that male Shepard doesn't have a badgirl romance in ME3 either. 

[MACharlie1]

Short Cake Slayer wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

Short Cake Slayer wrote...

I noticed that basically, both the romance options straight females get (Thane and Jacob don't really count, now, do they) are pretty straight laced.  Even Garrus with his "rebelliousness" (turian rebelliousness is akin to that of most strict Protestant school kids who sneak out a few times before they're caught and never do it again, or get a few people killed by gang members.) (wait...) is still a good guy and a straight shooter; he follows orders, cleans and calibrates the guns and basically is a good soldier, like most Turians are.  Kaiden...don't get me started.  I don't even think he's even smoked a cigarette in his life. He's in the military and he has NO tattoos.  And he's Canadian*.

During his poker game with Vega, both of them have a lit cigarette in the ashtray. It's there regardless if they are there or not but I'm headcanoning it. Same with Liara during her conversation with Garrus. 

 

HAHA Liara and Garrus sharing a smoke.  Isn't there some kind of dextro amino thing that keeps Garrus from lighting up or something?

I never said Garrus was smoking. The ashtray with the lit cig was clearly on Liara's side of the table. 

[CptData]

Aver88 wrote...

CptData wrote...
And the thread is about badboys.

I just wanted to point out that male Shepard doesn't have a badgirl romance in ME3 either. 

Think the closest thing to a "badgirl" is Diana Allers. And only 'cause she simply wants to get laid by Shepard: just sex, nothing else.

The second closest thing is ... uhh ... yes.

*shrugs*

I should go.

[Thrazesul]

Hm good point actually. I like the "bad boys" but there's none of them in ME. D:

Hell, Javik's probably the closest fit to that, being sort of renegade but yeah... not a LI, prothean and not at all interested. Not to say not many would be interested in a prothean either. xD

[Semi-Sweet Serpent Charmer]

MACharlie1 wrote...
I never said Garrus was smoking. The ashtray with the lit cig was clearly on Liara's side of the table. 

Damn.  Secret asari dark side.  Probably a Shadow Broker thing. 

[Cosmochyck]

Well if they had bothered to give anyone a CHOICE to save/cure Thane, my Shep's badass would still be around for ME3!

[Semi-Sweet Serpent Charmer]

Nerana wrote...

Hm good point actually. I like the "bad boys" but there's none of them in ME. D:

Hell, Javik's probably the closest fit to that, being sort of renegade but yeah... not a LI, prothean and not at all interested. Not to say not many would be interested in a prothean either. xD

Yeah Vega would have been a good option too.   I haven't downloaded Javik yet but after shooting so many Collectors in the face it would have been poetic to fall in love with one (well a Prothean, but they still look the same.)  Poetic and kind of weird. 

[Semi-Sweet Serpent Charmer]

Cosmochyck wrote...

Well if they had bothered to give anyone a CHOICE to save/cure Thane, my Shep's badass would still be around for ME3!

I know, his romance had enough stoic broodiness to hold any bad boy lover over til the end of time He even had a romantic nickname in another language for you.   Talk about swoon!

Come to think of it, how come Garrus doesn't have any turian pet names for Shep?  What's the turian word for "Dark sex goddess?"  Anyone? 

[2leggywillow]

I'm confused as to why Thane is being considered a "bad boy" while Garrus is not (not that I particular consider either of them to fit that definition).  Thane is a fairly stoic assassin with a gravelly voice, but all of his conversations are about his meditative spirituality and his search for inner peace.  He angsts a fair bit, but I'd never call him a "bad boy".  Unless we're saying you can't be a badass without acting like a teenager with authority issues.

Personally I prefer LIs that *don't* fit into this weird dichotomy where they can only be a thoughtful sweetheart or an aggressive bad boy.  I much prefer having three-dimensional characters who show signs of being both.

[Kateish]

Short Cake Slayer wrote...

What's the turian word for "Dark sex goddess?"  Anyone?

Oh, that's easy... "Shepard"

[frylock23]

Short Cake Slayer wrote...

frylock23 wrote...

Do you really want your male LI to risk being more bad@ss than your femShep?

Wouldn't a badass romance option make a more suitable partner for Shepard than anyone else? I'm just saying. I don't like out-badassing my men all the time.  (I'm a female Marine so it happens more than one would think irl)    And Jack kind of...blew up an entire prison station all by her lonesome.  On her own I'd say she's probably more powerful than Shep; the only reason why she doesn't rip your face off is because Shep's supposedly such an amazing leader that she chooses to follow. 

I actually didn't like Jack on the Normandy all that much. Not because she was super powerful buit because her personality came off as something of a loose cannon. I felt like she was prime to slip the leash at any time especially because my femShep always chose Miranda in the Jack/Miranda confrontations. I was always waiting for that showdown I always knew was coming when Jack just finally decided eff-it and went to take off Shep's head and do her own thing.

The last thing I need on my ship is a badboy who makes me feel the same way Jack did. It's just asking for trouble. I prefer Garrus and Kaidan who are both very, very capable guys - Garrus might even be the better sniper (is when I play Shep) - but are also sensible, stable and know their chain of command. Either one is capable of taking charge should the need arise, but neither is going to challenge Shep unnecessarily or make trouble for no reason (i.e. just because they're bad boys).

[gearseffect]

W.A.S.P. self-titled debut in my stereo it's on the song BAD Irony is not lost on me "Because good girls and BAD boys make their mom and daddies say BAD,"

Oh the greatness. Anyway, my Shepard (only play dudeSheps) don't have that BAD GIRL in ME3. No Jack,
Those who liked the more diverse cast and characters with more depth from ME2 got screwed on all fronts;

[Aggie Punbot]

All they would have had to do was make Zaeed a love interest and BAM! Instant bad boy LI.

[Lucky Thirteen]

Garrus not a bad boy? What are you talking about? His solution for a criminal is to put a bullet in their head, not arrest them and take them to trial. Even when a paragon Shepard tells him that's a bad way to handle things he still does it anyways.

[Padt]

I've actually wondered about this before. My best guess is that it can be difficult to create male characters with a "bad boy" streak that somehow also manage to be affable and appealing to a female audience, so perhaps writers (especially male writers) are more reticent to make the attempt. After all, it's a very careful, fragile balance that you have to maintain. I mean, the "bad boy" label is usually used to describe characters who are rebellious and challenging and perhaps not really mindful of typical social norms, especially towards the player character, but who also possess a certain roguish charm and lovableness that makes them attractive. Swing too far in one direction and you risk making the character completely repugnant. Swing too far in the other and the "bad boy" is essentially neutered.

(It's arguable that the same applies to female characters, as well - I mean, Jack may be the designated "bad girl" character and love interest, but she appears to be fairly unpopular with the audience as a whole, including the male portions of it. I myself am quite fond of Jack, but I've always felt as though I was a part of a minority)

So it's easier to stick with male characters who are more traditionally sweet, romantic and polite towards the PC (particularly the female PC), like Thane, Kaidan or, say, most of the male love interests in the Dragon Age games. The great irony here is that with James Vega they finally seem to have succeeded in creating a "bad boy" character who, near as I can tell (from my admittedly limited vantage point), also manages to be appealing to certain female gamers, but then they went and didn't make him romanceable. It's almost as if they intended for him to be a love interest, but then started to feel unsure as to whether or not the character they made would be able to maintain that fragile balance I mentioned before, so they backed out on the idea at the last minute.

Modifié par Padt, 03 avril 2012 - 12:57 .

[breyant]

Hmm I would consider Javik a "bad guy"... He certainly is no paragon lol

[Hadeedak]

Oh, hi, Atton avatar. You chose perfectly for this thread, Lucky Thirteen...