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Where have all the bad boys gone?


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#26
Semi-Sweet Serpent Charmer

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Lucky Thirteen wrote...

Garrus not a bad boy? What are you talking about? His solution for a criminal is to put a bullet in their head, not arrest them and take them to trial. Even when a paragon Shepard tells him that's a bad way to handle things he still does it anyways.


Not in my game ;)  We let Sidonis live.

I think Garrus will never simply be that chaotic of a character because of his background and turian culture in general.  It's a very militant society;  Garrus is considered a turian "rebel" and he's actually pretty good at following orders, is loyal, and hardly questions Shepard, not to mention it's easy to convince him to stay on an orderly course even when he questions it.  For a turian, he's rebellious; compared to other races who are more varied in their moral stances, like humans, he's actually a pretty ordered person.   I think they tailored the Garrus/Shepard relationship (not the romantic part of it) to me like a mentor/student relationship, (one of the dev's mentioned this before, with Garrus taking on the role as student) and in the first two games you actually see that more; Garrus struggling with his own conscience and beaurocracy and constantly asking for your input or how you would respond in hypothetical situations.  Is he a rebellious turian? yes.  But turians are more ordered and following a set path is hammered home way more in their society than in any other.    He actually thanks you when you convince him not to kill Sidonis, because it falls in line with the upbringing he probably had.

#27
Semi-Sweet Serpent Charmer

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2leggywillow wrote...

I'm confused as to why Thane is being considered a "bad boy" while Garrus is not (not that I particular consider either of them to fit that definition).  Thane is a fairly stoic assassin with a gravelly voice, but all of his conversations are about his meditative spirituality and his search for inner peace.  He angsts a fair bit, but I'd never call him a "bad boy".  Unless we're saying you can't be a badass without acting like a teenager with authority issues.

Personally I prefer LIs that *don't* fit into this weird dichotomy where they can only be a thoughtful sweetheart or an aggressive bad boy.  I much prefer having three-dimensional characters who show signs of being both.


I'm not really considering him a bad boy, just a different character archetype than our typical "paladin/white knight in shining armor/savior" male romantic archetype that we tend to get.   What Thane is is sort of what I mentioned before, an antihero archetype on the quest for redemption after doing lots of nasty things, which you see a lot in ninja folktales, especially with the renewed spirituality in the character that gives him/her purpose for redeeming themselves.   It definitely makes him "badass" but he's got an ordered code that he follows that makes him less of a chaotic "bad boy" and more of an anti-hero.   A proper bad boy would have been Vega, who's harder to predict, who makes impulsive decisions that usually turn out well but not always (him crashing the shuttle in the beginning of the game is a good example).

Technically, my measure for a proper "bad boy" would be Bishop from NWN2.  Not sure if anyone's played that, but that was a chaotic bad boy character done right.  Too bad he was so well written that his romance was an absolute disaster ;)

#28
Semi-Sweet Serpent Charmer

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Padt wrote...

I've actually wondered about this before. My best guess is that it can be difficult to create male characters with a "bad boy" streak that somehow also manage to be affable and appealing to a female audience, so perhaps writers (especially male writers) are more reticent to make the attempt. After all, it's a very careful, fragile balance that you have to maintain. I mean, the "bad boy" label is usually used to describe characters who are rebellious and challenging and perhaps not really mindful of typical social norms, especially towards the player character, but who also possess a certain roguish charm and lovableness that makes them attractive. Swing too far in one direction and you risk making the character completely repugnant. Swing too far in the other and the "bad boy" is essentially neutered.

(It's arguable that the same applies to female characters, as well - I mean, Jack may be the designated "bad girl" character and love interest, but she appears to be fairly unpopular with the audience as a whole, including the male portions of it. I myself am quite fond of Jack, but I've always felt as though I was a part of a minority)

So it's easier to stick with male characters who are more traditionally sweet, romantic and polite towards the PC (particularly the female PC), like Thane, Kaidan or, say, most of the male love interests in the Dragon Age games. The great irony here is that with James Vega they finally seem to have succeeded in creating a "bad boy" character who, near as I can tell (from my admittedly limited vantage point), also manages to be appealing to certain female gamers, but then they went and didn't make him romanceable. It's almost as if they intended for him to be a love interest, but then started to feel unsure as to whether or not the character they made would be able to maintain that fragile balance I mentioned before, so they backed out on the idea at the last minute.


Your response rocks my socks.  I actually was thinking this too....maybe it's harder to maintain a bad boy balance that's still appealing.  I liked Jack; she scared the **** out of me, but I liked having her aboard, and I like how she "changes" (becomes more reliable and more trustworthy) as the series progresses, which means your influence has an impact on her which makes for great story; but she always maintains her personality and her attitude, just shifts it to a focus.    For some reason it doesn't ****** me off as much when Jack says "**** you".  Coming from her, it reads more as a sign of "strength" and attitude, whereas if it came from a man I'd actually be seriously offended.  Which is interesting, because it means that women who cuss and get tattoos and blow up space stations  are just plucky and spirited and acting out a bit.  (how cute, head pat.)   Whereas when the men do it, they're actually real criminals and douchebags that need to get shot in the face?  

That's an interesting difference.   Vega's flirting in the beginning of the game actually bothered me a bit, he reminded me of a lot of cocky grunts that I used to work with who basically saw me as a pair of boobs in a uniform; but once the story progressed and he actually comes up to your room to ask about the N7 program and expresses his anxiety over accepting it or failing at it I actually warmed up to him a lot.   I realized it was a personality trait and not something malicious pointed at me and the whole exchange and his character became way more enjoyable.  I think a natural romance progression for a "bad" boy would be this intial distrust and almost dislike, that eventually grew into an attraction once the two parties began to understand each other better.  And I've definitely been in situations where I've absolutely hated a guy and didn't understand why I disliked him so much, only to be dating him a year later, so I know it's a realistic expectation ;) 

#29
Taritu

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Short Cake Slayer wrote...

2leggywillow wrote...

I'm confused as to why Thane is being considered a "bad boy" while Garrus is not (not that I particular consider either of them to fit that definition).  Thane is a fairly stoic assassin with a gravelly voice, but all of his conversations are about his meditative spirituality and his search for inner peace.  He angsts a fair bit, but I'd never call him a "bad boy".  Unless we're saying you can't be a badass without acting like a teenager with authority issues.

Personally I prefer LIs that *don't* fit into this weird dichotomy where they can only be a thoughtful sweetheart or an aggressive bad boy.  I much prefer having three-dimensional characters who show signs of being both.


I'm not really considering him a bad boy, just a different character archetype than our typical "paladin/white knight in shining armor/savior" male romantic archetype that we tend to get.   What Thane is is sort of what I mentioned before, an antihero archetype on the quest for redemption after doing lots of nasty things, which you see a lot in ninja folktales, especially with the renewed spirituality in the character that gives him/her purpose for redeeming themselves.   It definitely makes him "badass" but he's got an ordered code that he follows that makes him less of a chaotic "bad boy" and more of an anti-hero.   A proper bad boy would have been Vega, who's harder to predict, who makes impulsive decisions that usually turn out well but not always (him crashing the shuttle in the beginning of the game is a good example).

Technically, my measure for a proper "bad boy" would be Bishop from NWN2.  Not sure if anyone's played that, but that was a chaotic bad boy character done right.  Too bad he was so well written that his romance was an absolute disaster ;)


Bishop was beyond badboy into abusive, I'd say.  Although I never romanced him (I recall him saying something /really/ offensive to my female PC the first time I met him.  I wanted to kill him.)  OTOH, he's a type some women go for, to be sure.

#30
Taritu

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Jack felt very realistic to me. Minus the super-biotic, of course, I've known women like her in real life.

Which is why male-sheps want nothing to do with her, romantically. I suppose in ME you can help her/fix her, but in real life that almost never works. Certainly didn't need Kelly to tell me not to have casual sex w/her.

#31
BatmanPWNS

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You forgot Tali and Jack's romance is pretty much non-existent in ME3. Vega would have been perfect, btw.

#32
TERASQUE

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Wrex or Grunt should pass for bad boys. Krogan love is the win

#33
Crazyjeffy

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You're forgetting Tali for your list of LIs :( That makes me sad.

But think of it this way: In real life a bad boy would just cheat on you. You'd be a thing to him. Because that's how bad boys are. Bad.

#34
Semi-Sweet Serpent Charmer

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Crazyjeffy wrote...

You're forgetting Tali for your list of LIs :( That makes me sad.

But think of it this way: In real life a bad boy would just cheat on you. You'd be a thing to him. Because that's how bad boys are. Bad.


LOL probably true.  But I would see a "romance" progression for a "bad' boy/girl be similar to Jack's; that she gains a focus or a purpose when she gains a lover, and evolves as a character because of the influence love has had on her life, as opposed to just treating Shep like a sex toy (which, admittedly, she tries to do in the beginning.)   Honestly they could play off of every womans fantasy to be the one thing that "tames" a bad boy into being faithful, just like they play off of women's fantasies of being rescued or "held up" by a knight in shining armor (don't say they don't! They totally do.)    This is essentially JAck's appeal for some people, that you can have a real impact on her life and who she is by romancing her. (i.e. you "save" her from herself.)    I mean, women should definitely get the same thing.  Isn't that our "thing" these days, fixing bad men into good ones? ;)  (I'm joking, btw, please don't flame me.) 

#35
legbamel

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Short Cake Slayer wrote...

Lucky Thirteen wrote...
Garrus not a bad boy? What are you talking about? His solution for a criminal is to put a bullet in their head, not arrest them and take them to trial. Even when a paragon Shepard tells him that's a bad way to handle things he still does it anyways.

Not in my game ;)  We let Sidonis live.

I think Garrus will never simply be that chaotic of a character because of his background and turian culture in general.  It's a very militant society;  Garrus is considered a turian "rebel" and he's actually pretty good at following orders, is loyal, and hardly questions Shepard, not to mention it's easy to convince him to stay on an orderly course even when he questions it.  For a turian, he's rebellious; compared to other races who are more varied in their moral stances, like humans, he's actually a pretty ordered person.   I think they tailored the Garrus/Shepard relationship (not the romantic part of it) to me like a mentor/student relationship, (one of the dev's mentioned this before, with Garrus taking on the role as student) and in the first two games you actually see that more; Garrus struggling with his own conscience and beaurocracy and constantly asking for your input or how you would respond in hypothetical situations.  Is he a rebellious turian? yes.  But turians are more ordered and following a set path is hammered home way more in their society than in any other.    He actually thanks you when you convince him not to kill Sidonis, because it falls in line with the upbringing he probably had.

If I remember correctly, Garrus thanks you for not letting him kill Sidonis becuase the back-stabbing bastard will live to suffer longer and at least can then tell you/Garrus what happened.  It's not becuase he's glad he didn't kill someone but because he finally got his explanation and knows Sidonis will keep living a feeling that guilt (which he utterly deserves).  That's why Shepard out-bad-asses him every time: she thinks longer-term.  :wizard:

#36
Aver88

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Crazyjeffy wrote...
But think of it this way: In real life a bad boy would just cheat on you. You'd be a thing to him. Because that's how bad boys are. Bad.


But what is wrong with that? It would be great if there would be some LI that may end up cheating on you. It would cause so many emotions and it would be so unexpected, but realistic.

And not only bad boys cheats. According to statistics around 50%-70% husbands cheat on her wifes. :P

#37
TERASQUE

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Does the name Jacob aka "Heavy Risk" say anything to you? That cheating bastard couldnt keep his hands of that candy!

Modifié par TERASQUE, 04 avril 2012 - 10:11 .


#38
LaurenShepard-N7

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Short Cake Slayer wrote...
Kaiden...don't get me started.  I don't even think he's even smoked a cigarette in his life. He's in the military and he has NO tattoos.  And he's Canadian*.

Besides the military thing that's an accurate description of my bf. :P I guess that's just my type? Femshep is just lacking in male LI's in general, Manshep has several different personality types of human and alien women, but if Femshep doesn't like Kaidan or Garrus she's pretty much forever alone. I don't know if I could handle a male version of Jack, but I definitely think Vega should have been made available for the girls who like confident muscular tattooed guys (and I know A LOT of girls who do).

#39
Apathy1989

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TS2Aggie wrote...

All they would have had to do was make Zaeed a love interest and BAM! Instant bad boy LI.


erggg.

Suppose some girls like old men.

#40
Bruddajakka

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ME2 made my Shepard feel like he was Ship Chaplain. To the point I started wearing the Kasumi doc outfit everywhere

#41
Irkalla

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If by bad boy you mean the **** type, then yes, I definitely missed that. Somebody like Bishop..or Gann. Are those even from Bioware? Probably not.

#42
Hadeedak

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We require more stubble and leather around these parts, I guess..

#43
78stonewobble

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Aver88 wrote...

Crazyjeffy wrote...
But think of it this way: In real life a bad boy would just cheat on you. You'd be a thing to him. Because that's how bad boys are. Bad.


But what is wrong with that? It would be great if there would be some LI that may end up cheating on you. It would cause so many emotions and it would be so unexpected, but realistic.

And not only bad boys cheats. According to statistics around 50%-70% husbands cheat on her wifes. :P


A wife beater would have been an interesting addition...

If not atleast to raise the issue...

#44
Lucky Thirteen

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Short Cake Slayer wrote...

Lucky Thirteen wrote...

Garrus not a bad boy? What are you talking about? His solution for a criminal is to put a bullet in their head, not arrest them and take them to trial. Even when a paragon Shepard tells him that's a bad way to handle things he still does it anyways.


Not in my game ;)  We let Sidonis live.
*snip*


I let Sidonis live in my game too, but, Garrus still prefers putting a bullet in a criminals head to arrest and takeing them to trial. He doesn't regret a single thing he did on Omega, he's just upset that he barely made a dent with all the work he did. Just look at it is his dossier in LotSB to see how brutal he got. By the end of ME3, he is pretty certain he's going to hell.

I don't even know why people compare him to Batman. One of Batman's themes was anti-gun and he always arrested and took people to trial. No matter how many times they broke out, he still just captured them. Garrus would have killed them all and solved the problem early.

#45
KelaSaar

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I miss me some bad boys, too. I mean to this day, Atton is still my favorite video game romance. I think what it comes down to is that I tend to go for nice, sweet guys in real life, so I like something a bit different in video games, especially since it let's me get my bad boy fix with no actual negative consequences. Plus, I think it makes it easier for the LI to come off as a more dynamic character if they start off as a bit of a bad boy, and as it stands, my poor Renegade FemShep had no one to romance.

#46
Lucky Thirteen

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What are you talking about, Atton's romance was completely cut.

#47
coldwetn0se

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Short Cake Slayer wrote...

Mulling this over, today:

*snipping truly awesome post*

*We in the Pacific Northwest wholly believe that most Candians that live a few hours north of us are probably the nicest people to have ever existed on the whole planet.


Just saw this today....sorry late to the game.  Very well thought out, and something I have thought on as well.  BTW, love the last statement....fellow PNWer here!