220 réponses à ce sujet

[Gillityr The Original]

xtorma wrote...
He is considerate to others, i am sure he helps old ladys across the street in his spare time, he just believes it's ok to cheat a little.

True enough.  I am also very impressed with his ability to draw straw-man arguments.  Very impressive!

[xtorma]

Raging Nug wrote...

I also volunteer my time as part of Big Brothers and Big Sisters of Toronto, but that's beside the point.

I don't know if I'd say it's 'ok', I just think that this particular exploit isn't as detrimental as people would like to think it is. As I pointed out, you can't tell if you're playing with someone who has used the exploit, and the gear itself isn't 'earned' - it's a randomized reward system. The exploit won't give you a better chance of getting that one Spectre pack that has a Black Widow or Wraith.

would you teach them it's acceptable to cheat a little bit as long as no one gets hurt by it and no one knows they did it?

[Raging Nug]

You're going to tell me that I'm straw-manning after that little bit you did about how people 'earn' their weapons? Ridiculous.

I think there's a difference between cheating and taking advantage of a faulty system. I also believe that I'm not in a position to judge how other people react to such exploits, and that my own style of gameplay isn't something I should force onto other people.

I'd much rather teach my little brother how to work as a team and not be jealous of other people who perform better than he does.

[Gillityr The Original]

So "cheating a little" just adds to performance? And adding to performance in no way impacts anyone else? And somehow, because the packs generate random items it is somehow OK to cheat to get them? Just because they are random? There is no jealousy on my part--I feel bad for clowns that feel they have to cheat in any circumstance. They are a disgrace to decency everywhere.

[Raging Nug]

"So "cheating a little" just adds to performance?"

I didn't say that though, or even imply it. You're judgemental and assumptive, now?

Edit: Let's take a look at the other stuff you said. "
And somehow, because the packs generate random items it is somehow OK to cheat to get them? Just because they are random? "

I'm saying that the exploit doesn't allow people to get the items in the first place. The exploit provides credits, which are used to play a lottery for new weapons and characters. The results aren't changed by the means the credits are obtained. If people were awarded items for performance, we'd be having a different discussion. People are not awarded bonus items for performance, they're awarded the same amount of credits for completing the same objectives regardless of how well they perform.

Modifié par Raging Nug, 03 avril 2012 - 08:20 .

[Gillityr The Original]

Said exploits (and other exploits) allow for receiving credits at a faster rate or for less effort. Do you deny this as well?

[Raging Nug]

This particular exploit allows people to replay a Wave 10 objective on Gold. They're still required to complete the objective, and it takes the same amount of time to do so. I concede that it might give a small advantage to some, as players start with full health and equipment, but the advantage is negligible to people who farm on Gold already.

It let's people earn credits faster, but I contest that it does not allow for more credits with less effort.

[Gillityr The Original]

I fail to see how you can admit that it may give an advantage to some and then also contest the credit/effort or credit/time ratio.

[Raging Nug]

Because playing for longer doesn't require more effort. I don't agree that effort = time. Farming Gold with my friends doesn't require skill, it only requires that we play for anywhere between twenty minutes to half an hour. Using the exploit would reduce that play time to five minutes each round.

The advantage is only for those who rely on equipment during Gold runs. My team can do a Gold run consistently without using equipment.

[InfamousResult]

Doesn't affect me.

But it'll *still* be funny when they get banned, regardless.

[Phatose]

At any rate, the online play terms of service specifically calls out "taking advantage of exploits" as against the acceptable terms of use.

Doesn't really matter what justification you have for the action - you actually agreed not to do it when you accepted your terms of service.

[Raging Nug]

That's true - the Terms of Service make mention that using and communicating exploits is a violation, so I generally don't, but that's not to say I don't find this particular exploit as morally abhorrent as the other community members. I just think it's interesting that people are so quick to condemn it for the strangest reasons.

[BLY78NOR]

Just use the eve-online method of dealing with it set everyone who's done it more then once (everyone can accidentally end up in one of these games) to negative the amount of credits they got off doing it

[Phatose]

I'm pretty sure it all comes down to "We all agreed to play by the same rules, and you're not doing it."

Breaking a social contract like gets you ostracized from any community. Seeing as our shared agreements on the rules are the only thing keeping this, or any community, from chaos, I think condemnation of abusers is appropriate.

[Raging Nug]

"Just use the eve-online method of dealing with it set everyone who's done it more then once (everyone can accidentally end up in one of these games) to negative the amount of credits they got off doing it"

That sounds reasonable. If that happened, I'd be very impressed.

"Seeing as our shared agreements on the rules are the only thing keeping this, or any community, from chaos, I think condemnation of abusers is appropriate."

I think enjoying the game is what keeps us together. It's what keeps my team and I together - we like being able to work together as a team to overcome the waves of enemies. It's fun.

I think that adhering to the mechanics of the game is important - the damage ratios, physics, and limits of the game should be respected. That said, I don't think someone earning credits faster than someone else is really all that bad, certainly not in comparison to infinite ammunition or immortality.

[BaridBelBar]

I feel as though people are missing the point of why this is going to continue to be a bannable offense. So long as you are free to buy packs using actual money, it will appear to Bioware as a way to circumvent some of their income, and therefore they will not condone it. They're a business, and need to turn a profit. People spending actual money on these packs is a way to do it. In case anyone hasn't seen it, here is the Youtube video where EA's president talks about gaming microtransactions.

www.youtube.com/watch

Edit: Had to fix the hyperlink

Modifié par BaridBelBar, 03 avril 2012 - 09:22 .

[TSCIGAR]

Yeah, I've noticed he still hasn't really responded to my point that it undermines their bottom line, and how that can (likely will) affect gamers.

I guess it's just easier to refute arguments that are based on subjective value judgements.

[jamesb71486]

Raging Nug wrote...

This particular exploit allows people to replay a Wave 10 objective on Gold. They're still required to complete the objective, and it takes the same amount of time to do so. I concede that it might give a small advantage to some, as players start with full health and equipment, but the advantage is negligible to people who farm on Gold already.

It let's people earn credits faster, but I contest that it does not allow for more credits with less effort.

"It takes the same amount of time to do so" except they complete that same objective tons of times.. doing in a few hours what would take other people weeks.. they may be able to beat wave 10 but it's like saying "oh you can rob your employeer.. after all you're just getting what you would've gotten anyway for 30 years of working here.."

[Raging Nug]

I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were waiting for me to respond to it.
You're right. From a business standpoint they won't sit by while potential outcome is wasted. I don't believe that it will impact the cost of DLC - it might if they decided they were feeling generous, but I maintain that the cost would also depend on other factors.

[Raging Nug]

jamesb71486 wrote...

Raging Nug wrote...

This particular exploit allows people to replay a Wave 10 objective on Gold. They're still required to complete the objective, and it takes the same amount of time to do so. I concede that it might give a small advantage to some, as players start with full health and equipment, but the advantage is negligible to people who farm on Gold already.

It let's people earn credits faster, but I contest that it does not allow for more credits with less effort.

"It takes the same amount of time to do so" except they complete that same objective tons of times.. doing in a few hours what would take other people weeks.. they may be able to beat wave 10 but it's like saying "oh you can rob your employeer.. after all you're just getting what you would've gotten anyway for 30 years of working here.." 

Well, except that people are still performing the goal required to earn the Wave 10 objective credits. If people could do in five years the work required to amount to 30 years worth of work, don't you think they'd still be entitled to the pay?

[InfamousResult]

When you design and publish a game, you can decide what is or isn't cheating.

Until then, abide by the agreement you signed, and accept that you did something wrong when you broke it- and therefore, are completely held accountable when they decide to ban you for it. Pretty simple, really!

[Assumedkilla]

I agree with the guy on the first page... this completely random unlock system is so dumb I don't blame anyone who farms gold and gets millions, billions, or whatever. I wouldn't do it simply because I don't care that much, but if those player want to why should I or any other player care? It's a co-op only game... they'll have more/cooler stuff than me? oh well. The unlock system is probably so bad because they want us to eventually spend real money, which is ridiculous. The MP should have a store like the SP does.

Gillityr The Original wrote...

Raging Nug wrote...

Gillityr The Original wrote...

xtorma wrote...

Gillityr The Original wrote...

I
hope the cheaters are hit so hard with the ban-hammer that they are
unable to play future games I might be playing. Cheating clowns can all
die in a fire for all I care. If you want to mod/hack, do so on a single
player game. Anyone trying to ask "Who is the cheater hurting?" is just
an untrustworthy pile of dung. Ban them; all of them.

No
, you don't understand. just because they cheat a little bit does not
mean they will cheat a lot if given the opportunity. This is what they
have been saying. They have self control. they only cheat a little.

The
ones who, as you say, "cheat a little" can simply be "banned a little".
 Just one lifetime.  And they should have their most prized body part
tazered repeatedly (for each offense).

Can't tell if trolling... or draconian...

I
believe in honesty and decency.  Cheating in a multi-player video game
shows a complete lack of respect for other people.  Selfish and
immature, pure and simple. 

Really? You believe in decency yet you want people to be tasered in the genitals for using a glitch to get fake game money? lol... you're coming off as hypocritical, immature, and certifiable. I haven't read every post in this long thread, but I've yet to see (a good reason) why us none glitchers should care about them. I'll save my outrage and anger for real problems like war, world hunger, crime, etc... not a multiplayer shooter lol.

Modifié par Assumedkilla, 03 avril 2012 - 10:04 .

[TSCIGAR]

Raging Nug wrote...

I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were waiting for me to respond to it.
You're right. From a business standpoint they won't sit by while potential outcome is wasted. I don't believe that it will impact the cost of DLC - it might if they decided they were feeling generous, but I maintain that the cost would also depend on other factors.

Well, it was mostly odd considering how on-point you are replying to everyone else. The reason I believe it will impact the cost of DLC is that the pack is obviously designed with a "freemium" mindset. It's only viable in the long term if there are going to be new things to get, and people aren't going to want to pay $5-$10 for a CHANCE to get new weapons or classes. Many companies offer freemium products- League of Legends is just the one that springs to mind immediately. For another big name, Dust 514 went freemium. I could list all the ****ty Zynga games, but they operate on a more consumable-based approach, which is much more easily sustained (thus the two special equipment packs we've gotten), soit's  not really fair to bring them into the equation.

EA will maximize their earning potential by making it possible to access the new content for free so everyone is a potential customer. They know this- they've seen it themselves with Ultimate Team. The marketplace certainly demonstrates this. My argument is predicated on EA wanting more money, and recognizing that microtransactions have become the best way to generate money over the long-term, and those microtransactions are strengthened by free content to keep old players and attract new ones.

Of course the cost of at least some DLC will consider other factors, such as development cost and advertising. You're going to see this more with new MP modes and SP content, though (and until they actually release one, I'm skeptical even a whole new MP mode will cost money). Even allowing for other factors, if people are exploiting their system so they don't make as much money, that's going to be a big factor, and it's foolish in the extreme to dismiss it entirely.

TL;DR: EA stands to make more money providing new MP content for free, and, given the success microtransaction machines (including their own) have had, they know this. This makes them more likely (not certain) to release new content for less money. If the microtransaction machine is broken, they'll need to make up that money somewhere, and somewhere is ALWAYS the consumer. Exploiters break the system. Therefore, their actions are at least somewhat likely to hurt us, and they don't benefit us in any way. Ergo, it's a bad thing for the playerbase at large- possibly costing us while never helping us, unless the playerbase at large is mostly guilty of exploiting, which just exacerbates the problem. It's Kant's categorical imperative in action.

[Dr-Rai1]

jamesb71486 wrote...

Raging Nug wrote...

I don't think it really takes the fun out of it. It depends on which aspect of the game you enjoy. I don't like the randomized reward system - I think it's obtuse. That said, I understand why people would seek to abuse it.

At the same time, Bioware has explicitly stated that the obvious cheaters will be banned. If it happens once, I don't think they'll care, but if you're farming millions of credits, chances are you'll end up banned.

Although, to be fair by the time the banning happens you'll have already gotten all the fun out of the game anyway. XD

Exactly my point. If you farm millions of credits to get every possible thing there is to get. What's left to do? There'd be nothing to work for.. you'd have it all already that's part of the fun for me. I have to actually work to get the best weapons as opposed to just exploiting a glitch and having it all basically handed to me on a silver platter.

While I agree with you cheating is bad and all....

I can't help but wonder what the point of you complaining about it is? This seems like a personal problem I'm reading, YOU have a problem with cheating or being handed things on a silver platter, so why are you concerned with other people who do it? We all have to work for what we get, you're not alone there, honestly I read stuff like this and can't help but think its another "wahhhh I can;t do it so I'm telling" kind of post. I'm attacking you personally and your supposed righteousness NOT defending the cheaters or cheating.

[samb]

Everytime this is brought up it always degrade to a morality thread.

I hate to say this guys, but using this glitch is not immoral in anyway.  It doesn't ruin the game for everyone else, because of two things.

1) it's a co-op game.  Better equipped teammates mean you increase your chance of survival.  This was the obvious one.

2) There is no trade or real economy in the game.  If I had a bunch of great stuff using this glitch and traded it for more credits or other rare items, then I would have an unfair advantage over other traders.  I could flood the market with things items making them worth less, I could hoard them and inflate their prices, etc.  But that isn't the case, all my stuff stays with me, I can't trade or sell it.  It's an economic dead end.  If this was on a MMO you could made a ver y legit claim that it is making things worse for others, but that is simply not the case here.

The stance that BW and EA will take will not be a moral one but a finacial one.  They will not ban you because this exploit is morally wrong, but because they could lose money over it.  It is just for the $$$.  Everyone needs to calm the F down and stop calling others morally indecent. 

I personally think this glitch is just not worth the risk.  Say you get your credits open a bunch of random packs to get respec cards and class XP, a common situation.  Then you get banned.  For what? respec cards and class XP.  Simple risk benefit says this glitch isn't worth the risk.