229 réponses à ce sujet

[greggm2000]

Agamo45 wrote...

VerdantSF wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

Yes, it appears to be a naturally occuring disorder. As I said, genetic therapy should eliminate it.

And what are your feelings regarding all the human/alien action going on?

I see it as bestiality. Next.

If you take "bestiality" to have so wide a definition as to include sentient aliens, then ANY sex is bestiality, even that between a human man and human woman.. in which case, the word is almost meaningless.

[txmn1016]

tobito113 wrote...

kingofkings276 wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

kingofkings276 wrote...

But for someone like Garrus for example who has previously given absolutely zero hints of being bisexual(and even discusses his heterosexual relationships with you)  to randomly decide he likes men would be stupid. For a series that concentrates so heavily on characters it would be dumb to have a change like that.

But in ME1 Garrus has given zero hints about being heterosexual and into human females yet in ME2 he randomly decidec he likes it

Considering how a good majority of people are straight it makes sense to assume he's straight.

GARUS DOSENT LIKE HUMANS IN ME1. This is like making a character a zoophile because of fan request, you forced him to enjoy an entire diferent species because you wanted him to. That is changing a character sexuality because of fan request.

Well he did have to..ah..get used to the idea.  It's not like it was a suddens shift.  Shep suggests the idea and because they're such good friends he considers it.  But to be fair, he tries to break it off and even sounds relieved if you do.

[kingofkings276]

tobito113 wrote...

kingofkings276 wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

kingofkings276 wrote...

But for someone like Garrus for example who has previously given absolutely zero hints of being bisexual(and even discusses his heterosexual relationships with you)  to randomly decide he likes men would be stupid. For a series that concentrates so heavily on characters it would be dumb to have a change like that.

But in ME1 Garrus has given zero hints about being heterosexual and into human females yet in ME2 he randomly decidec he likes it

Considering how a good majority of people are straight it makes sense to assume he's straight.

GARUS DOSENT LIKE HUMANS IN ME1. This is like making a character a zoophile because of fan request, you forced him to enjoy an entire diferent species because you wanted him to. That is changing a character sexuality because of fan request.

Okay, then they shouldn't have made him romancable at all. I was actually unaware that he wasn't interested in humans, I'm assuming he only mentions that to femshep.

And anyways being attracted to an alien is different than being attracted to same sex IMO. Especially if said alien is considered the opposite sex of you.

Modifié par kingofkings276, 03 avril 2012 - 02:51 .

[Larryboy_Dragon]

Kanner wrote...

Your thread title and your post are awkwardly at odds.

This

[nopantsisabela]

kingofkings276 wrote...

But for someone like Garrus for example who has previously given absolutely zero hints of being bisexual(and even discusses his heterosexual relationships with you)  to randomly decide he likes men would be stupid. For a series that concentrates so heavily on characters it would be dumb to have a change like that.

So? YOUR characters don't have to change. Now other people just have the option of romancing Garrus if THEY want to in THEIR story. Making Garrus gay does not mean that you have to go have sex with him.

Also, as someone who chose KingofKings for their name, I'd just like to point out, Jesus loved everyone (lepers, the poor, the downtrodden and the abused...) I think he'd love gay people too.

Edit: Forgot to say, I romanced Garrus too.

Modifié par nopantsisabela, 03 avril 2012 - 02:52 .

[txmn1016]

Lol, well I wasn't interested in turians until I realized Garrus was romanceable.

[Kanon777]

kingofkings276 wrote...

tobito113 wrote...

txmn1016 wrote...

kingofkings276 wrote...

txmn1016 wrote...

...there really aren't that many same sex LIs in this game. And you can't blame people for wanting Garrus, male or female. That guy is just sex on a stick.

Sure, they can want him. Doesn't mean he should become bisexual for them. TBH a scene where he tells a homosexual shep that he isn't interested would be pretty interesting.

I agree.  I think being gay would be out of character for him.  I liked that Tali and Garrus stayed the same.  

garrus wasnt humansexual in ME1,but they forced him to become humansexual in ME2 and 3 so bioware did change his sexuality because of what some people wanted from him.

Alright, you have a point there. Doesn't mean they should do it even more though.

I agree i dont particulary support the idea but i dont like the double standards going on here. People who dislike bi-Kaidan should also complain about tali-mancers and garrus-mancers or stfu.

Its like people who bash Bioware for 1 line where anders hits on (male AND femele) Hawke but completely ignore the 100000 times Isabela made insinuations on you...

Modifié par tobito113, 03 avril 2012 - 02:52 .

[txmn1016]

I romanced Kaidan and him turning out bi didn't surprise me or upset me even in the slightest.

[greggm2000]

Agamo45 wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

There never should have been any to begin with. You'd think that genetic therapy would eliminate such disorders in the future.

And here I thought there were no more Neanderthals today.


Are you even aware that homosexuality happens in nature... you may have missed the memo, but Humans are animals, mammals... and other mammals also display homosexuality... and it is not even limited to mammals... birds as well... and so on.

Yes, it appears to be a naturally occuring disorder. As I said, genetic therapy should eliminate it.

That would be counter-survival. Homosexuality exists AND persists in the animal kingdom (including humans) because it's evolutionarily a benefit. This makes it the opposite of a disorder, by definition.

Now, it may happen that some human population groups may do so at some point in the future, but it'd be detrimental, just like, say, removing the ability to feel pain from every individual in that population group. (seems like it would be a good thing on the surface, but in reality it's a really bad idea)

[shepskisaac]

kingofkings276 wrote...
Considering how a good majority of people are straight it makes sense to assume he's straight.

Ohh so now we're bringing assumptions as proofs? Great! I assume Garrus is bisexual! Also, human males look more like turian females than human females do, so it's safe to assume Garrus who's a Turian would be actually more attracted to human male than human female. Gotta love the assumptions!

kingofkings276 wrote...

And anyways being attracted to an alien is different than being attracted to same sex IMO. Especially if said alien is considered the opposite sex of you.

You're contradicting yourself lmao.

[Barict78]

Sawtooth357 wrote...

Keldaurz wrote...

 So we all get it, the OP doesn't want an option to romance Garrus because he might be tempted by it thus... his "straightness" compromised.

This one would gleefully accept the stalwart Garrus Vakarian into its tentacular embrace. The noble Turian's metallic epidermis would be sharp and painful to the soft jelly of this one's external membrane. Fortunately, this one finds little discomfort in the reception of physical trauma.

No This is The Best Post Ever Sorry for the mistake!

[DarkBladeX98]

Miranda for me

[Arken]

Athro wrote...

This is the thing I don't get about the whole "Kaidan shouldn't be gay!" brigade. His sexuality is linked to YOUR story. So if you play as a straight female and romance Kaidan - he's straight in your story. And to be honest, the fact that Kaidan doesn't romance mShep until the third game makes the bi/gay Kaidan storyline so different it's a different character and story altogether.

There seems to be this weird notion that the characters are set in stone. But they are guided by the story they are in.

I really noticed this watching my flatmate playing femShep in ME3 and talking to Kaidan. In that version, Kaidan came across as kind of whiny and weak next to femShep. But in my playthrough, he was competent, intelligent and very much mShep's equal. Conversations with him had a very different tone and feel to them.

Because, as you say, in MY story he was a different character.

They both work. It just seems to me that some people have trouble separating their story from others.

You see here's the only problem with this, I'd liked to first say that I enjoy that Kaidan is a S/S option, is that Kaidan is not your Shepard nor are any of your squadmates.

What makes the characters great is their personality, motivations, and behavior. You can't simply alter that because it's part of "your story". Yes, who you romance is part of your story, but their sexuality isn't.

When things such as sexuality and personality of a squadmate become nothing more than variables for the player to decide than it diminishes the character themself.

The characters in the game become nothing but playthings for the player do whatever they please with.

"Want Liara to become a renegade? Just click this button."

"Want Garrus to change classes to a biotic? Just click this button."

"Want Wrex as an LI? Just click this button."


Shepard is a plaything, but not his squad. When they do things or change due our actions it should be due to a choice with unintended consequences. An example is the fate of Mordin depending on what choices you made.

You decide the destiny of Mordin, but it wasn't a simple "Click this button to change Mordin's motivations so he doesn't do this." It was an organic process throughout the three games that led up to that moment.

Kaidan should be S/S.

Jack should have been S/S

Thane should have been S/S

And that's it. The only reasons those character should be available as S/S options is due to the fact that it was originally intended, and it fits for each of them. I would have been fine if Thane was an S/S option in 3, because it was intended from the start.

What Bioware needs to remember though, is that no aspect of a character's personality should be up to the player unless it's a well crafter system such as the fate of Mordin. If Kaidan is interested in men in a male Shepard playthrough than his interest in men should at least be recognized in a female Shepard playthrough.

Kaidan is who he is, and it shouldn't change based on Shepard's gender. That should apply for all characters if Bioware cares about the integrity of the artistic importance of their characters.

Although considering the way they ended the trilogy I'm not sure if Bioware really understands art anymore...

[shoshbear]

Barict78 wrote...

Sawtooth357 wrote...

Keldaurz wrote...

 So we all get it, the OP doesn't want an option to romance Garrus because he might be tempted by it thus... his "straightness" compromised.

This one would gleefully accept the stalwart Garrus Vakarian into its tentacular embrace. The noble Turian's metallic epidermis would be sharp and painful to the soft jelly of this one's external membrane. Fortunately, this one finds little discomfort in the reception of physical trauma.

No This is The Best Post Ever Sorry for the mistake!

I second that motion! Blasto the First Hanar Spectre and Garrus Vakarian The Archangel of Omega in... The Love That Dare Not Speak! 

[Agamo45]

greggm2000 wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

VerdantSF wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

Yes, it appears to be a naturally occuring disorder. As I said, genetic therapy should eliminate it.

And what are your feelings regarding all the human/alien action going on?

I see it as bestiality. Next.

If you take "bestiality" to have so wide a definition as to include sentient aliens, then ANY sex is bestiality, even that between a human man and human woman.. in which case, the word is almost meaningless.

No, bestiality has a very specific meaning. Having sexual intercourse with any creature that is not a member of the human race, is bestiality. It's actually really simple.

[kingofkings276]

IsaacShep wrote...

Ohh so now we're bringing assumptions as proofs? Great! I assume Garrus is bisexual! Also, human males look more like turian females than human females do, so it's safe to assume Garrus who's a Turian would be actually more attracted to human male than human female. Gotta love the assumptions!

You're contradicting yourself lmao.

All the proof I need is that they never made Garrus romancable by male shepard. Bioware made the right decision and realized that not everyone is a bisexual. 

Also that's not contradicting myself. People say homosexuality is in our genetics, techinically you shouldn't be able to "become gay". We don't know if we could be attracted to aliens or not because we don't have any aliens to test this out on.

[Cazlee]

Garrus, Jacob, Thane are straight.
Miranda, Jack, Tali, Ashley are straight.

Cortez is gay.
Traynor is gay.

Kaidan is bisexual.
Liara, Diana, Kelley are bisexual.


Edit: forgot about Jacob and Thane. So 1/9 squadmates are gay/bisexual.  The only person they changed was Kaidan...

Modifié par Cazlee, 03 avril 2012 - 03:15 .

[AlexWk31]

IBTL!!

Modifié par lxwkl21, 03 avril 2012 - 03:25 .

[kingofkings276]

Arken wrote...

Athro wrote...

This is the thing I don't get about the whole "Kaidan shouldn't be gay!" brigade. His sexuality is linked to YOUR story. So if you play as a straight female and romance Kaidan - he's straight in your story. And to be honest, the fact that Kaidan doesn't romance mShep until the third game makes the bi/gay Kaidan storyline so different it's a different character and story altogether.

There seems to be this weird notion that the characters are set in stone. But they are guided by the story they are in.

I really noticed this watching my flatmate playing femShep in ME3 and talking to Kaidan. In that version, Kaidan came across as kind of whiny and weak next to femShep. But in my playthrough, he was competent, intelligent and very much mShep's equal. Conversations with him had a very different tone and feel to them.

Because, as you say, in MY story he was a different character.

They both work. It just seems to me that some people have trouble separating their story from others.

You see here's the only problem with this, I'd liked to first say that I enjoy that Kaidan is a S/S option, is that Kaidan is not your Shepard nor are any of your squadmates.

What makes the characters great is their personality, motivations, and behavior. You can't simply alter that because it's part of "your story". Yes, who you romance is part of your story, but their sexuality isn't.

When things such as sexuality and personality of a squadmate become nothing more than variables for the player to decide than it diminishes the character themself.

The characters in the game become nothing but playthings for the player do whatever they please with.

"Want Liara to become a renegade? Just click this button."

"Want Garrus to change classes to a biotic? Just click this button."

"Want Wrex as an LI? Just click this button."


Shepard is a plaything, but not his squad. When they do things or change due our actions it should be due to a choice with unintended consequences. An example is the fate of Mordin depending on what choices you made.

You decide the destiny of Mordin, but it wasn't a simple "Click this button to change Mordin's motivations so he doesn't do this." It was an organic process throughout the three games that led up to that moment.

Kaidan should be S/S.

Jack should have been S/S

Thane should have been S/S

And that's it. The only reasons those character should be available as S/S options is due to the fact that it was originally intended, and it fits for each of them. I would have been fine if Thane was an S/S option in 3, because it was intended from the start.

What Bioware needs to remember though, is that no aspect of a character's personality should be up to the player unless it's a well crafter system such as the fate of Mordin. If Kaidan is interested in men in a male Shepard playthrough than his interest in men should at least be recognized in a female Shepard playthrough.

Kaidan is who he is, and it shouldn't change based on Shepard's gender. That should apply for all characters if Bioware cares about the integrity of the artistic importance of their characters.

Although considering the way they ended the trilogy I'm not sure if Bioware really understands art anymore...

Wow, phenomenal write up. Hit it spot on, good job man.

[greggm2000]

Agamo45 wrote...

greggm2000 wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

VerdantSF wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

Yes, it appears to be a naturally occuring disorder. As I said, genetic therapy should eliminate it.

And what are your feelings regarding all the human/alien action going on?

I see it as bestiality. Next.

If you take "bestiality" to have so wide a definition as to include sentient aliens, then ANY sex is bestiality, even that between a human man and human woman.. in which case, the word is almost meaningless.

No, bestiality has a very specific meaning. Having sexual intercourse with any creature that is not a member of the human race, is bestiality. It's actually really simple.

Dictionary.com disagrees with you. Even if it didn't, I don't consider it morally wrong to have sex with a sentient non-human that can and does mutually consent.

[Leozilla]

Cosmar wrote...

I agree. The current amount of same-sex possible romances is fine, and characters like Garrus and Tali never seemed inclined to swing that way so I don't see why they should be changed.

Some people think it was a stretch to make Kaidan bi, but I always thought there was that kind of vibe from him in ME1 anyway.

I got that same vibe from him

[Leozilla]

Sawtooth357 wrote...

Keldaurz wrote...

 So we all get it, the OP doesn't want an option to romance Garrus because he might be tempted by it thus... his "straightness" compromised.

This one would gleefully accept the stalwart Garrus Vakarian into its tentacular embrace. The noble Turian's metallic epidermis would be sharp and painful to the soft jelly of this one's external membrane. Fortunately, this one finds little discomfort in the reception of physical trauma.

awesome.....just awesome:wub:

[shepskisaac]

kingofkings276 wrote...

All the proof I need is that they never made Garrus romancable by male shepard. Bioware made the right decision and realized that not everyone is a bisexual.

Then all the proof I need is that he wasn't romanceable by FemShep in ME1. Sorry, you can't apply your won logic only when it's convinient to you. Seriously dude, you're not original. Every month there's some guy whining how his precious bro bro Garrus can't be "teh bi" because "OMG!". And they always mention Garrus, which is the worst example possible considering he along with Tali weren't available for romance in ME1. Been there done that. We've already saw this thread many times. Think of something new.

[BuckHammer]

Keldaurz wrote...

 So we all get it, the OP doesn't want an option to romance Garrus because he might be tempted by it thus... his "straightness" compromised.

I read it more of that Garrus as a character is heterosexual. Altering his character to make him bisexual would violate the sexual identity of his character.

[frylock23]

S Atomeha wrote...

pomrink wrote...

Aren't there more homosex LI's then hetero LI's? there's nothing wrong with homosexual LI's but they're a bit overrepresented

no?
theres one homosexual LI for each sex, one bi-sexual, one mono-gendered
Males have 
Ashley
Liara
Miranda
Jack
Tali

Females have
Kaiden
Liara
Jacob
Thane
Garrus
Vega

Homosexuals-
Cortez, Traynor

Bi-sexuals-
Kaiden

Mono-gendered-
Liara.

Uh, I think you're mistaken about straight females. We really only get two and even Kaidan went bi, but at least he plays very well as straight - Kaidan and Garrus.

Liara - has female body so technically appeals more to bi or lesbian
Jacob - dumped you for ex-Cerberus scientist
Thane - barely acknowledges any romance at all and you get no achievement for it
Vega - not possible, unless you think simple flirting is romance

Everyone else is much better off.