403 réponses à ce sujet

[DarthSyphilis59]

Are you a rEAper?

[TheLastAwakening]

Basically if you insert blah blah blah anywhere there is a potential plot-hole the ending becomes the best of the series. At least that is what I think I was suppose to get from this thread. Unless, I missed the point.

Also if Bioware changes the ending = you writing the ending= them losing artistic integrity = OP can't be a fan.

[Mandemon]

Gigamantis wrote...

ME2's ending was actually kinda boring.  ME1 was good but I can't say I really got all that emotional.  This is just the first time I actually felt any need to register the game.  I wanted to be able to talk on the forums. 

ME2 ending boring? Dude, have you ever played it even? Care to elaborate this further? Why was it boring?

Gigamantis wrote...

I honestly think the majority was just upset at the sad ending but decided that overstating plot-holes made them sound more rational in their extreme emotional reaction.  That's just my opinion, though.  

 

It's not the "sadness" of the ending that has up in the arms, it's the plot holes and inconsistencies that invalidade the earlier games. Hell, the ending of ME3 makes entire ME1 plot pointless.

[The Night Mammoth]

Gigamantis wrote...

So this is ultimately about their artistic integrity?

We definitely haven't heard that before.

It's ultimately about me liking the ending.  I would like Bioware to maintain their integrity, though, mainly because I'd like to continue being a fan and if they start letting you write their stories for them I won't be able to. 

I'd like them to maintain it too.

By releasing ending DLC, of course. 

That way, you don't have to download it, and their artistic vision stays intact and unchanged. 

[Wolven_Soul]

Glad you liked it, but I whole heartedly disagree with you.  It was the worst ending in the series.

[clipped_wolf]

Gigamantis wrote...

It was intense, it was beautifully cinematic and it actually choked me up a bit.  The ending to the first ME didn't elicit much emotion from me at all and at one point I remember actually trying to skip through parts of the ME2 ending. 

I actually felt the same way the first time.  I thought I had just gotten my LI killed by bringing her into my final squad, a relationship that had existed on my harddrive since November 2007.  Every wobly step toward the beam of light I felt light-headed and numb..  Oh well, I thought, time to finish this.  When I watched Anderson die it snuffed the joy of watching TIM kill himself...then the relays exploded and the thought: what did I just do? No. What was I just forced to do?  Then the Normandy was flying away and I felt uneasy.  Logic was kicking in and it told me that should not hvae been possible.  When the Normandy crashed and I saw my LI step off I felt confused and cheated.
I would have been fine with Liara dying.  I would have been fine with Shepard dying.  I would have been fine with the Normandy exploding to dust.  But the forced betrayal of the "greater good" that I thought my Shep stood for was tossed out at the last minute.  The feeling I, the player, was forced to make my avatar kill galactic civilization was the first of many problems I have with the ending.

[xxskyshadowxx]

Gigamantis wrote...

Exactly how does someone, anyone steal anothers integrity? You either possess this intangible or you do not. Folks can defame you. Lible you. Sure. But No one can take it from you if its part of your inate nature. You can lose it, sell it, give it way....You can even redeem yourself and take pride in your intregrity again.

One can only lose their integrity on their own.

You're really going to make this about semantics. You steal their integrity by forcing them to abandon their artistic vision. It's an expression, obviously integrity is an intangible that can't be physically stolen.

Once again....you can't claim artistic vision when you steal it from someone else. Play Deus Ex1. It's pretty inexpensive now. The fact that Bioware is even claiming it as their own proves that they have no integrity, so a changed ending is no big deal.

Not to mention the fact that they would hardly be the first:

J.K. Rowling rewrote her books more than once. (before publication but that's how books work...and videogames SHOULD work).

Many artists who work on commion redo their work to suit the buyer MULTIPLE times.

Great Expectations was rewritten after publication, based on reader response.

When readers outcried against Sherlok Holmes death,,,,the book was rewritten.

Most movies/TV series are redone/edited again/reshot after focus screenings, based on viewer response.

Even game companies have done this before...Bethesda in Fallout 3 for example.

None of this is unprecedendted in the artistic medium....none of it. In fact...if Bioware doesn't change the endings based on fan outry, they will actually be going against the establshed norm for the medium.

[Utopianus]

Gigamantis wrote...

*snip*

I do my April fools pranks in February.

You people are really bad at this.  Being forced to resort to the "troll" cop-out so soon in the thread.  It's like you've all never had a conversation before.  

I am beginning to wonder about the intention of people who posts these kinds of posts in this section of BSN. If your real intention is to inject positivity you'd write this either in the feedback section, General Discussion section, or an email/traditional handwritten mail to BioWare as means to cheer them up and let them know they still have supporters who believe in them, and that is by all means a good thing. Posting this here however is akin to intentionally poking a wasp nest - you know and can see lots of wasps buzzing around angrily and that poking their nest will further provoke them, and the only reason you'd do that is because you derive entertainment from doing so, thus stiring up more negativity than positivity. So, if you genuinely believe the ending was excellent and you want a productive debate, you would not put a disclaimer stating you disregard the long and growing list of complaints, but instead actively address them in one go, as elements of your singular overarching argument - that the ending was great. If however you simply wanted to inject some positive feedback, that's what the "Feedback" section is for - it will certainly inject some positivity in that sea of negative feedbacks. If you didn't want a solid debate nor simply offering a feedback and still posted here with the provocative language and condescending tone shown in your first post, then your intention is suspect, i.e., you intentionally instead of accidentally bumped into the wasp nest, thus you may and very likely will be accused of being a troll.

[Joccaren]

Gigamantis wrote...

Read that already and all it does is complain about the catalyst and complain that ME3 didn't adhere to the exact same formula as the original 2 and questions some inconsistent personality traits going into the third game.  All of it is completely serviceable right up until you throw in the catalyst. 

I honestly think the majority was just upset at the sad ending but decided that overstating plot-holes made them sound more rational in their extreme emotional reaction.  That's just my opinion, though. 

And that is the point, is it not? 'Right up until you throw in the Catalyst'. Most would have been happy if Shepard died there with Anderson, and not activated the Crucible, and the fleets fought the Reapers above Earth. 7K EMS and you win, less you lose.
The Catalyst, its logic that makes little sense, and the three options that are contrived, torn from Deus Ex and make little sense in the overall context of the series, as well as the inability to argue with the Catalyst, the lack of closure, the gaping plot holes, the lack of any choice in the end, or choices mattering in the end - it all adds up.
Yes, he does state that it not following the Hero's journey is a bad thing - but there is a reason for that. The hero's journey is not just something that ME1 and 2 did for fun. It is the formula used in the majority of grand adventure stories. It works, and breaking from that formula presents a big risk. Usually, that risk does not pay off - like seen in ME3. The lack of any conclusion, or even a concrete base to start making one's own conclusion, is severely problematic to the story. There is no 'Return with the Elixir' stage, as the hero's journey puts it, and this will almost always cause problems for you. Imagine Star Wars where the Death Star blowing up is the lst thing you see. Imagine LoTR where the last thing that happens is Frodo dropping the ring, then fade to credits. Imagine Inception where the last thing you see is the guy jumping off that building in his mind to enter his subconcious. These would be terrible endings. They offer no conclusion, raise more questions than they answer, and will leave most hating the franchise. This is the reason that deviating from the Hero's path is often such a bad thing. It is an extremely broad and generalised formula for storytelling, that can occur in so many ways its not funny. You break from it though, especially in so major a way as to leave an entire stage out, and there will be consequences.

The majority is not upset because the endings were sad. I've seen endings sadder that were proposed: The Normandy Ramming Harbinger, resulting in the Death of Joker and the crew. Squadmates fighting at the Conduit on the ground, being overrun by Reaper forces. Wrex/Reave falling to an army of Ravagers, Liara falling to a Banshee, Garrus being out flanked by Marauders. There are fan writes where everyone dies, but its still considered better than the ME3 ending. People don't like the ME3 ending as it makes no sense. There is no logic behind it. It is a cheap tactic that tries to force an emotional response through the protagonists death, as opposed to letting it happen naturally. We are literally told "You don't need to know the answers" by the lead writer, and are given 0 conclusion because of this. We have space magic kill Shepard, Destroy the Relays and move the Normandy to a random planet. Had a reasonable reason been given for this, we wouldn't have minded.
Most of the fixes for the endings have put forward three main points:
-Remove the Catalyst, which is the point at which you yourself noted the ending fell to pieces
-Don't have the Normandy stranded for no reason, don't destroy the relays for no reason, and if appropriate have Shepard live
-Have player choices matter in the end, and not be disregarded by it, resulting in a multitude of different endings.

Those are three very reasonable requests that would fix most problems with the ending. In a Role Playing Game, no choice is given at the end. This is a big problem with the ending, as well as its failings in comprehensibility. That is what we want fixed. The majority of complainers would love their own special ending, but won't complain if they don't get their headcanon - so long as the endings make sense. That is what we want. An ending that makes sense. I see nothing unreasonable about that.

[Gigamantis]

Mandemon wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

ME2's ending was actually kinda boring.  ME1 was good but I can't say I really got all that emotional.  This is just the first time I actually felt any need to register the game.  I wanted to be able to talk on the forums. 

ME2 ending boring? Dude, have you ever played it even? Care to elaborate this further? Why was it boring?

Gigamantis wrote...

I honestly think the majority was just upset at the sad ending but decided that overstating plot-holes made them sound more rational in their extreme emotional reaction.  That's just my opinion, though.  

 

It's not the "sadness" of the ending that has up in the arms, it's the plot holes and inconsistencies that invalidade the earlier games. Hell, the ending of ME3 makes entire ME1 plot pointless.

What exactly is interesting about the ME2 ending?  Raid collector base, kill boss, steroetypical harrowing escape ... it was a typical B action movie ending.  There was no emotional weight and it wasn't very interesting.   Easily the worst in the series.  

Also, plot-holes make people critical but they don't start teary eyed internet riots.  I really feel this is all a byproduct of the sad ending. 

[xxskyshadowxx]

Gigamantis wrote...

Joccaren wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

I'm not a writer and neither are you.  Besides the introduction of the catalyst at the end the story is perfectly serviceable and the ending was indeed intense and moving.  I leave it to the real creative minds to continue building on what they've hinted at in DLC.  I don't want you or your horrible ideas involved any more than you would want me writing this series.  

Read this for me:
http://jmstevenson.w...-mass-effect-3/ 
I think this clearly explains why the ending is not servicable.

As to whether it is intense and moving, I will leave that to subjectivity. Suffice to say, the apparent majority thought it was not intense and moving, but instead confusing and not thought out.

Read that already and all it does is complain about the catalyst and complain that ME3 didn't adhere to the exact same formula as the original 2 and questions some inconsistent personality traits going into the third game.  All of it is completely serviceable right up until you throw in the catalyst. 

I honestly think the majority was just upset at the sad ending but decided that overstating plot-holes made them sound more rational in their extreme emotional reaction.  That's just my opinion, though. 

Um...I was okay with Shepard dying. I am NOT okay with Shepard blindly agreeing to become Space Hitler. In all honesty, why are YOU okay with that?

[DxWill103]

[quote]Gigamantis wrote...



At least people who complain about the ending list WHY they don't like it.
[/quote]
Actually, they don't. 

[/quote]

lolwut?

[DxWill103]

[quote]Gigamantis wrote...

[quote]DxWill103 wrote...

Yet again, an OP that says nothing but

The ending was great bioware you rox

At least people who complain about the ending list WHY they don't like it.
[/quote]
Actually, they don't.

[/quote]


[/quote]
lolwut   Have you been on the forums the past month?

Modifié par DxWill103, 03 avril 2012 - 05:00 .

[Madecologist]

Gigamantis wrote...

So this is ultimately about their artistic integrity?

We definitely haven't heard that before.

It's ultimately about me liking the ending.  I would like Bioware to maintain their integrity, though, mainly because I'd like to continue being a fan and if they start letting you write their stories for them I won't be able to. 

Again, I think people take the interpertation of it too far. If Bioware chooses to change its ending, or expand on it (doesn't matter what the motivations are) they are still in the driving seat. They decide what the changes or additions will be. Not us. So they still maintain their artisitic integrity.

Asking them to change the ending or expressing dissatisifaction and saying the ending as is doesn't cut it is not telling them how to write the end. Yes people that are doing fanfics are but I am not speaking of them here. Most people are saying they are not satisified and that if the endings are they way they are they have lost interest in future products.

You can not ask someone to like something they don't like nor can you ask them to keep buying from a company that someone feels is not satisfying them. It is still art but once you start selling it you are influenced by market pressures the same way anything else that is sold is. An artist that wants to make money better be able to sell his work.

Actually did you consider saying Bioware should ignore the complaints or not listen to the Retakers is just as bad as saying they should change their ending. You -ARE- telling them what they should do or not do. If you truely believe in their artistic right than you support them no matter what they decide be it change or not change.

I personally am not asking for a new ending. I think they are bad and I am not interested in a company that makes endings like this. I will take my business elsewhere. Bioware can choose to whatever it wants, as can I (all within the reason of the Law... none of us can go streaking in the middle of the street.. for example).

Modifié par Madecologist, 03 avril 2012 - 05:03 .

[Gigamantis]

Um...I was okay with Shepard dying. I am NOT okay with Shepard blindly agreeing to become Space Hitler. In all honesty, why are YOU okay with that?

Shepard wasn't exactly in great shape and teeming with other options at that point. Besides, the option to control the reapers wasn't genocide.

[gnaag]

Your opinion that sad ending is the reason for the internet riots................wow. Please watch jeremy jahns, angryjowshow or that new guy youtube vids, read the posts, the rage is not over a sad ending or in biowares words "bitter sweet" ending.

The whole thing makes little to no sense but clearly you are uninformed if thats your opinion.

[bboynexus]

Although I don't really consider myself among those many who feel the ending ruined the entire series, you'd do well to consider the GIGANTIC plot holes it creates, Gigamantis. They aren't minor. They're huge.

[bboynexus]

Gigamantis wrote...

Um...I was okay with Shepard dying. I am NOT okay with Shepard blindly agreeing to become Space Hitler. In all honesty, why are YOU okay with that?

Shepard wasn't exactly in great shape and teeming with other options at that point. Besides, the option to control the reapers wasn't genocide.

But is incongruous with the central theme of the series....

SELF-DETERMINATION.

[Joccaren]

Gigamantis wrote...

What exactly is interesting about the ME2 ending?  Raid collector base, kill boss, steroetypical harrowing escape ... it was a typical B action movie ending.  There was no emotional weight and it wasn't very interesting.   Easily the worst in the series.  

Also, plot-holes make people critical but they don't start teary eyed internet riots.  I really feel this is all a byproduct of the sad ending. 

I don't know about you, but in my playthrough of ME2 my entire squad died, and Shepard fell off as he was trying to escape, dying tragically at the collector base.

You see, this is why the ending of ME2 is heralded as being great: Your choices matter. You can have that happy ending if you want, or you can have a sad one, or you can have a bittersweet one. Your choices allow you to have different outcomes, and you decide whether you send the crew to their deaths, or whether they live.
This is Mass Effect, there is no canon ending, the ending you described was the 'Perfect' ending for ME2, not the canonicle one. Hell, in the start-from-scrath ME3, half your squadmates are dead. That is emotional, especially when you sent them to their deaths.
ME1 is considered good too as you are given a valuable choice in the end, and shown its outcomes: Kill or Save the Destiny Ascension. It has an effect on 2 and 3, and the way that the galaxy treats you and humanity.

This ain't a linear game, a movie or a book. This is a Role Playing Game, and your choices matter. In 3, your choices change nothing, and that is a major complaint about them. That, in addition to the ending making little sense, is why many hate the ending. You don't hear people complaining about the fact that Shepard could die at the collector base. You hear them complaining that he was forced to die at the Crucible.

[The Fazzle]

I wish I could feel the same way OP does, and I'm serious when I say that...I'm totally jelly =(

[GLR-0053]

Gigamantis wrote...

Mandemon wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

ME2's ending was actually kinda boring.  ME1 was good but I can't say I really got all that emotional.  This is just the first time I actually felt any need to register the game.  I wanted to be able to talk on the forums. 

ME2 ending boring? Dude, have you ever played it even? Care to elaborate this further? Why was it boring?

Gigamantis wrote...

I honestly think the majority was just upset at the sad ending but decided that overstating plot-holes made them sound more rational in their extreme emotional reaction.  That's just my opinion, though.  

 

It's not the "sadness" of the ending that has up in the arms, it's the plot holes and inconsistencies that invalidade the earlier games. Hell, the ending of ME3 makes entire ME1 plot pointless.

What exactly is interesting about the ME2 ending?  Raid collector base, kill boss, steroetypical harrowing escape ... it was a typical B action movie ending.  There was no emotional weight and it wasn't very interesting.   Easily the worst in the series.  

Also, plot-holes make people critical but they don't start teary eyed internet riots.  I really feel this is all a byproduct of the sad ending. 

You do realize that the ME2 suicide mission could end tragically with all your squadmates dying, and yeah I agree the Mass Effect series sold characters better than plot which is why its pretty good. As for the ending being sad eh not so much it's just dissapointing how the 3 decisions play out so similar to each other. 

[Unit-Alpha]

Can I have some of what you're smoking?

[RenascentAnt1]

Gigamantis wrote...

Yes, I know.  Blah blah need more explanation.  Blah blah I'm sad because everyone died and my choices didn't change the ending enough to make me less sad in future playthroughs.  

The ending was the most well produced and moving one in the entire series.  Definitely a fitting conclusion. 

I'm all for lobbying to fill in a few of the plotholes with explanations, maybe in future DLC, but man can you people overreact like no one else on the planet.  They had better not change the ending.  The game was fantastic. 

Let me guess: Bioware intern?

[Larryboy_Dragon]

Well...the others had better final missions, but ME3's actual ending was on par.

The bigger surprise is that people are surprised that it's like all Bioware's other games.
Some folk here were clearing drinking the marketing kool-aid.