403 réponses à ce sujet

[Gigamantis]

That the Reapers were synthetic was never even an issue raised by anyone in the trilogy. That there was some unescapable eventuality was never even hinted at until the end. That synthetics were a problem because they were synthetic was never debated.

The big reveal about synthetics at the end isn't something that had to be revealed several times in the story. It's an inevitability that apparently only the catalyst was fully aware of, but over-arching problems with synthetic vs organic life were obviously hinted at all throughout the series.

He tells you.

If true then it's an oversite, I don't remember. Not really a big one though.

Could have being the operative phrase.

The catalyst would obviously have been involved with the events in ME1. His intentions are there to speculate on, and that's not a bad thing.

First, I distinctly remember you hearing people over the radio say that Hammer has been wiped out.
Second, with the first element established, and no concrete explanation given, a plot hole arises.

You experienced what shepard experienced through that part of the ending sequence. How your squad escaped wasn't really important and it's easy to assume they were picked up at any point during the sequence in the crucible.

Situation 1 - The Normandy is actually in FTL, which means it didn't get far out of the Local Cluster. Since there aren't any other habitable planets around, it shouldn't have crashed anywhere.

Situation 2 - The Normany drops out of the Mass Effect corridor mid jump. So, it is in deep space, and has exposed itself to lethal radiation due to the extreme decelleration. That's in the codex, by the way, it begins with a 'C'. There are no planets in deep space.

The normandy could've passed through the relay completely before it went down, and from that point where it ended up is a complete mystery. It seems like leaving it a mystery is what they were going for, since we didn't even get to see who survived.

The codex seems to think that blowing up a Relay causes a supernova. Arrival shows you this.

No, I'm not saying it's definite either way, just that the lack of explanation is a plot hole.

To conclude, it's not really the plot holes which bother me, but more the complete disregard for anything that comes before the ending. Be that character, theme, narritive style, premise etc.

All of it, is just tossed on the fire in favor of needless and out-place-ambiguity and nihilism.

Trust me when I say that everyone gets it by now. You don't like open-ended story telling. If everything isn't lined up perfectly for you large fits will ensue. That's fine, but for the most part your reasons don't invalidate my opinion that the ending is good. There's nothing inherently wrong with some open ended elements in a story, whether you like it or not is a matter of personal taste.

[boardnfool86]

Gigamantis wrote...

Yes, I know.  Blah blah need more explanation.  Blah blah I'm sad because everyone died and my choices didn't change the ending enough to make me less sad in future playthroughs.  

The ending was the most well produced and moving one in the entire series.  Definitely a fitting conclusion. 

I'm all for lobbying to fill in a few of the plotholes with explanations, maybe in future DLC, but man can you people overreact like no one else on the planet.  They had better not change the ending.  The game was fantastic. 

agreed.

[Gigamantis]

Right the catalyst is god. So it came up with the "yo dawg" solution to a problem that isn't explained. You still didn't answer why AI eventually wipes out all organics. Well actually you didn't answer anything. You just say "stories can have open ends". An open end is not the same as changing everything in the end. Endings are almost always open because they cannot possibly explain every simple thing that will happen up to eternity. But they made an ending that could be for any story. But since you are not answering anything I guess I don't need to ask you why the Catalyst lets Shepard make the decision abou the future? I mean the catalyst is as you said a god-like being. He had a solution (ignring how stupid it is) and it didn't work. So we need a new solution, but since the starchild got tired of thinking we just give Shepard 3 choices that don't make sense. Why does the starchild not create a new solution? Because Shepard is smarter? Is it that? Let me guess. Your answer is we don't know and we don't need to know. Right? You are working for Bioware, just admit it. Because that's probably what they thought when they made this ending. Seriously. That's the dumbest POS I have ever read.

i actually did explain everything; you're either trying to stall or not actually reading my posts.  AI wiping out organics is just the inevitability the catalyst knows is coming.  The reason is hinted at and almost made obvious by all the conflicts that arise between organics and synthetics.  The catalyst seems god-esque, I didn't say it was all powerful.  What it seems to have at it's disposal is information and the reapers, but once the crucible was erected it seems that crucible allowed Shepard to take control in one of a few ways.  Those were his options to resolve this using the crucible.  You're just being confrontational and angry now; I honestly don't think you're even reading my responses.

And another reason why it is obvious the ending was rushed is simply missing cutscenes. There could have been like half an hour cutscenes showing how all other squadmates and other people are doing. Be it them being blown up by Reapers or taking down Reapers. Alliance, Krogan, Quarian, Asari, etc. Normandy. All the people, squadmates, etc. You just get the most basic ending they could do. Showing only Shepard and Anderson as if nobody else mattered. We know from a leak that the 2 squadmates were supposed to get with you into the Citadel or be blown up, depending on your choices. Where is that? Right, it was cut. You are just excusing a lame rush job of an ending, that's all you do. And the only thing you can say is "open ending". That's why you're a troll and that's why I should never have responded to you other than calling you troll.

Ugh, yes there could've been a lot of things.  The ending could've been a 3 hour movie where we see the minutia of everyone's entire day, but that's not proof that something was rushed.  Leaving you feeling uncertain and helpless may be what they were going for; it was a bleak ending.  You're just so emotional you can't even make a reasonable point, it always degrades to the stupid troll accusations because you're not smart enough to do better.

[QuarkZ26]

Gigamantis wrote...

i actually did explain everything; you're either trying to stall or not actually reading my posts.  AI wiping out organics is just the inevitability the catalyst knows is coming.  The reason is hinted at and almost made obvious by all the conflicts that arise between organics and synthetics.  The catalyst seems god-esque, I didn't say it was all powerful.  What it seems to have at it's disposal is information and the reapers, but once the crucible was erected it seems that crucible allowed Shepard to take control in one of a few ways.  Those were his options to resolve this using the crucible.  You're just being confrontational and angry now; I honestly don't think you're even reading my responses.

How does the catalyst "know"? It doesn't know anything, it just presumes. The fact is, if the reapers didn't come, the Geth wouldn't give a damn about organics. You say the reason is obvious because of all the conflicts?
Well once the Geth kicked the Quarians out of their planets, they didn't try to
pursue and eliminate them, nor they suddenly decided to wipe out all life.
The only reason you fight the Geth is because the Reapers indoctrinated them to fight against organics. (funny, no?)

Saying that synthetics would wipe out organics is pure speculation.
The only way way to know this would be if it actually happened. If it actually happened, there would be no
organics left to "protect".
But it never actually hapenned, and the almighty catalyst just presumed it would.

No wonder you liked the ending, you are as illogical as the catalyst.

Modifié par QuarkZ26, 03 avril 2012 - 05:34 .

[Velocithon]

No way. I hate the ending, but ME2 ending was incredibly epic. Even if they fix the plot holes and all, ME2 still has the better ending. IMO.

[NReed106]

hahahahahaha obvious troll is obvious

[CaliGuy033]

Gigamantis wrote...

Trust me when I say that everyone gets it by now. You don't like open-ended story telling. If everything isn't lined up perfectly for you large fits will ensue. That's fine, but for the most part your reasons don't invalidate my opinion that the ending is good. There's nothing inherently wrong with some open ended elements in a story, whether you like it or not is a matter of personal taste.

So much this.  

[killnoob]

ME2's ending allows you to feel like you have achieved something...ME3's ending is just sad and depressing, and Hudson actually called the ME3 ending uplifting? his view about the ending is almost...comical

Modifié par killnoob, 03 avril 2012 - 06:40 .

[armorrekka]

bioware employee trying to defend the weak ending

[Gigamantis]

QuarkZ26 wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

i actually did explain everything; you're either trying to stall or not actually reading my posts.  AI wiping out organics is just the inevitability the catalyst knows is coming.  The reason is hinted at and almost made obvious by all the conflicts that arise between organics and synthetics.  The catalyst seems god-esque, I didn't say it was all powerful.  What it seems to have at it's disposal is information and the reapers, but once the crucible was erected it seems that crucible allowed Shepard to take control in one of a few ways.  Those were his options to resolve this using the crucible.  You're just being confrontational and angry now; I honestly don't think you're even reading my responses.

How does the catalyst "know"? It doesn't know anything, it just presumes. The fact is, if the reapers didn't come, the Geth wouldn't give a damn about organics. You say the reason is obvious because of all the conflicts?
Well once the Geth kicked the Quarians out of their planets, they didn't try to
pursue and eliminate them, nor they suddenly decided to wipe out all life.
The only reason you fight the Geth is because the Reapers indoctrinated them to fight against organics. (funny, no?)

Saying that synthetics would wipe out organics is pure speculation.
The only way way to know this would be if it actually happened. If it actually happened, there would be no
organics left to "protect".
But it never actually hapenned, and the almighty catalyst just presumed it would.

No wonder you liked the ending, you are as illogical as the catalyst.

The catalyst has apparently seen the cycle happen before and at least feels it's inevitable, even if it doesn't 100% know.  What's the difference?  The catalyst is still invading with the reapers and the crucible could only resolve that in a couple ways.  Even if you think the catalyst doesn't know what he's talking about it doesn't change the situation that it's forced shepard into. 

[Kawamura]

Gigamantis wrote...

The ending was the most [...] moving one in the entire series.  

I agree. 

None of the other endings provoked such a strong emotion from me. A strong negative emotion (anger, frustration, disgust), mind you, but a strong emotion. 

So. My absolute value of my feelings is large?

[Mundl]

i absolutly agree with you OP the ending was awesome!!

someone made a video with all possible endings side by side!!! just imagine ALL masterpiece endings at once!!!

[Nicky 192]

It was the worst ending to a franchise i have ever seen in my life and i have seen a few....

Modifié par Nicky 192, 03 avril 2012 - 06:01 .

[stargatefan1990]

only read the first comment was an obv Troll bait

Try again Casey

[stargatefan1990]

Nicky 192 wrote...

It was the worst ending to a franchise i have ever seen in my life and i have seen a few....

[AzaZeLgaming]

Nice april's fool OP ... oh wait. Trolololo

[QuarkZ26]

Gigamantis wrote...

The catalyst has apparently seen the cycle happen before and at least feels it's inevitable, even if it doesn't 100% know.  What's the difference?  The catalyst is still invading with the reapers and the crucible could only resolve that in a couple ways.  Even if you think the catalyst doesn't know what he's talking about it doesn't change the situation that it's forced shepard into. 

Yep that's the problem. But hey, blessed are the poor of spirit for theirs are the magnificent endings.

Guess I'm done here...

[VoodooDrackus]

QuarkZ26 wrote...


How does the catalyst "know"? It doesn't know anything, it just presumes. The fact is, if the reapers didn't come, the Geth wouldn't give a damn about organics. You say the reason is obvious because of all the conflicts?
Well once the Geth kicked the Quarians out of their planets, they didn't try to
pursue and eliminate them, nor they suddenly decided to wipe out all life.
The only reason you fight the Geth is because the Reapers indoctrinated them to fight against organics. (funny, no?)

Saying that synthetics would wipe out organics is pure speculation.
The only way way to know this would be if it actually happened. If it actually happened, there would be no
organics left to "protect".
But it never actually hapenned, and the almighty catalyst just presumed it would.

No wonder you liked the ending, you are as illogical as the catalyst.

The Catalyst had to have been built at some point millions of years ago. That means some lifeform created it. That same lifeform may have experienced a hostile sentient AI that had the intent of wiping out all organic life so that its existence would not be in jeopardy. We don't know. The Catalyst was given a specific function. Bring order to the chaos so that organic life will always be able to thrive. The Reapers were the solution that it came up with.
It is reasonable to assume that the first Reapers were created using the endangered advanced organics in order to wipe out the synthetic threat. Reapers after all are both Synthetic and organic. That  may have been the sacrifice that first cycle needed to make in order to prevent the synthetics from carrying out their plan. The Citadel also being like a reaper could also be both synthetic and organic, ie the first reaper.

While it is partially true that the Geth do not give a damn about organics. Organics, the Quarian, were always wanting to get back their home world. They would eventually have built up enough firepower to try and take it back waging war against the Geth yet again. The Geth may have eventually decided that it would be better to wipe out all Quarian, organics, so that their existence is not threatened in the future.

Based on that, it is easy to see why the Catalyst would say you bring it on yourselves. The Quarians were so fearful of their synthetic creations, that they tried to destroy them. Their entire effort after being ousted was to see that the Geth were completely wiped out. They were building towards that. And the end result would be that the Geth may very well have decided that organics were a threat to their existence.

[AzaZeLgaming]

VoodooDrackus wrote... And the end result would be that the Geth may very well have decided that organics were a threat to their existence.

LOTS OF SPECULATIONS FOR EVERYONE! , however, the Geth never saw organics as a threat and only acted on self defense remember? Still the godchild is wrong, since it would be completely opposite what it's suggesting; organics killing synthethics. There has been absolutely no "synthetics killing organics" apart from reapers themselves (and reaper controlled/influenced), in any cycle.

plz read:

http://social.biowar.../index/10876976

Modifié par AzaZeLgaming, 03 avril 2012 - 06:53 .

[wotmaniac]

Blah blah I'm sad and my choices didn't matter.
Seriously though, if I want something where my choices don't make much of a global difference, I can just point at pretty much everyone's everyday life.
ME series was about making your choices matter, sure its not 'realistic', but at least it offers a form of escapism where you feel you accomplished something and makes you happy for some time.
Fitting conclusion to A Series of Unfortunate Events maybe, though even that after 13 books of desperation, gave you some hope.

[VoodooDrackus]

DanteImprimis wrote...

I remember the endings of Deus Ex, thanks.

No one is trying to seriously argue that they are literally "the exact same choices as Mass Effect 3." That's obviously not the case -- only one of the two games has Reapers, and only one has J.C. Denton. That's not the point. What is being argued is that Mass Effect 3's three end choices are functionally identical to those in Deus Ex -- thus the accusations of ME3 lazily ripping off Deus Ex. You said it yourself in your descriptions: the choices in both games are control (the world or the Reapers), synthesis (organic-synthetic in both cases), or destroy (wiping out modern civilization's critical technologies in both cases).

To be completely honest, I'm not really sure how you went through the process of typing up those summaries of the endings without seeing the very clear similarities to ME3, but you're entitled to your opinion.

I was giving the ending rundown for those who did not play the game so that they can see that although they can be similar types of choices they are not in fact the same choices. They do not serve the same function.

Synthesis? Seriously how is it synthesis if he already has synthethic parts in his body? Helios is integrating with JC. He is Not modifying JC's body to be a merging of both Organic and synthesis.

On the surface they can be similar but they have different contextual implications.
You are shoehorning your example to add validity to your viewpoint.
You are trying to make the evidence fit your predetermined theory rather than coming up with a theory that matches the evidence.

[VoodooDrackus]

AzaZeLgaming wrote...

VoodooDrackus wrote... And the end result would be that the Geth may very well have decided that organics were a threat to their existence.

LOTS OF SPECULATIONS FOR EVERYONE! , however, the Geth never saw organics as a threat and only acted on self defense remember? Still the godchild is wrong, since it would be completely opposite what it's suggesting; organics killing synthethics. There has been absolutely no "synthetics killing organics" apart from reapers themselves (and reaper controlled/influenced), in any cycle.

plz read:

http://social.biowar.../index/10876976

You are completely missing the point. Yes, the Geth never saw organics as a threat and acted in self defense. But, the Quarians were determined to get back their homeworld sometime in the future. At that point with the Quarians going after the Geth a number of things could have happened. If you are an AI and you see that organics are hell bent on wiping you out, you may take on several different adjustments to your program with a highly possible outcome to wipe out the threat completely.

If you did the Credits mission in the first Mass Effect you see evidence of what an AI can do when it feels threatened. The Geth may have still shrugged off organics trying to destroy them, but all it takes is a different interpretation of a number to have some of the Geth decide that destroying all organics is the final solution.

[Mandemon]

I have only one thing to say about this thread. OP can say whatever he wants, from what he says and does I have concluded this:


Changed to more SWF version

Modifié par Mandemon, 03 avril 2012 - 08:07 .

[AtlasMickey]

OP is correct, but I don't think there are plotholes. There's just a lack of detail.

I am perfectly fine with their releasing a DLC that fleshes out the ending and am looking forward to it.

Modifié par AtlasMickey, 03 avril 2012 - 08:36 .