1158 réponses à ce sujet

[Kitedtk]

also... two quick examples,.... one of contructive criticism...


and one of analytical criticism


note.. those are both over 30 minutes long... just to give an example how long analysis and ideas people have worked on...

[Gigamantis]

xMellowhype wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

Then you're definitely not an artist and have absolutely no idea what creating art is about.

Anyone
who has actually worked their ass off producing and improving their art
would know that an integral part of it is having to chop and change it.
Any artist who sits there and says "My art is simply too good for you
philistines" is a crap artist trying to hide their ineptitude behind
superiority because they never would've developed as an artist in the
first place. Noone gets popped out of their mother's womb able to
produce masterpieces. It is a long, drawn out process of improving,
critiquing, being criticized, making amendments, improving, critiquing
etc.

There's a reason they say to be a good artist you need to
have thick skin: this is why. And noone, no matter how good, is above
the criticism that comes with the production of art - noone on this
planet can ever say "I don't have more to learn" or "I can't improve my
work."

Artists make retroactive changes to works all the time,
and they incorporate any criticism they've taken into future works as
well, it's what is required to improve and be as good as you can be in
art. Why? Because art is not produced in a vacuum. If alot of people
think what you produced is crap, in the art world, it is crap.

If you'd been paying attention at all you would know this isn't about integrating criticism into future art, it's about completely abandoning your vision because you're bullied out of it.  RPG players can't handle sad endings.  RPG players don't like open-ended themes.  Great notes for future development, but that doesn't mean you get to tear down and recreate a painting that's already finished.  

Oh look more insults that are somehow valid arguments. "gt a lyfe broz."

Is there anything you don't consider an insult?  

[xMellowhype]

Gigamantis wrote...

Alent wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...
If you'd been paying attention at all you would know this isn't about integrating criticism into future art, it's about completely abandoning your vision because you're bullied out of it.  RPG players can't handle sad endings.  RPG players don't like open-ended themes.  Great notes for future development, but that doesn't mean you get to tear down and recreate a painting that's already finished.  

If Mass Effect was a movie and ended the way it did and the test audience had the same reaction as a majority of the fans did would they have changed the ending or stuck with their "vision" even if that meant it would tank in theaters?  I can tell you what most movie producers do: they would rewrite the ending.

Awesome.  Now I know the retakers how no idea how movies work. 

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Ad_hominem 

How many of those now? 237502380 just by you? Can you just leave the forums already and go back to the sociopathic and well deserved bullfied life you live?

WOW TWO PEOPLE CAN INSULT WHAT A CRAZY IDEA.

Modifié par xMellowhype, 03 avril 2012 - 06:46 .

[xMellowhype]

Gigamantis wrote...

xMellowhype wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

Then you're definitely not an artist and have absolutely no idea what creating art is about.

Anyone
who has actually worked their ass off producing and improving their art
would know that an integral part of it is having to chop and change it.
Any artist who sits there and says "My art is simply too good for you
philistines" is a crap artist trying to hide their ineptitude behind
superiority because they never would've developed as an artist in the
first place. Noone gets popped out of their mother's womb able to
produce masterpieces. It is a long, drawn out process of improving,
critiquing, being criticized, making amendments, improving, critiquing
etc.

There's a reason they say to be a good artist you need to
have thick skin: this is why. And noone, no matter how good, is above
the criticism that comes with the production of art - noone on this
planet can ever say "I don't have more to learn" or "I can't improve my
work."

Artists make retroactive changes to works all the time,
and they incorporate any criticism they've taken into future works as
well, it's what is required to improve and be as good as you can be in
art. Why? Because art is not produced in a vacuum. If alot of people
think what you produced is crap, in the art world, it is crap.

If you'd been paying attention at all you would know this isn't about integrating criticism into future art, it's about completely abandoning your vision because you're bullied out of it.  RPG players can't handle sad endings.  RPG players don't like open-ended themes.  Great notes for future development, but that doesn't mean you get to tear down and recreate a painting that's already finished.  

Oh look more insults that are somehow valid arguments. "gt a lyfe broz."

Is there anything you don't consider an insult?  

Considering your existence in an insult to real living things then no. WOW TWO INSUTLS FOR ME I FEEL ACCOMPLISHED.

[Iconoclaste]

I think we got your point, Gigamantis. Anything else?

[Ashilana]

xMellowhype wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

Awesome.  Now I know the retakers how no idea how movies work. 

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Ad_hominem 

How many of those now? 237502380 just by you? Can you just leave the forums already and go back to the sociopathic and well deserved bullfied life you live?

WOW TWO PEOPLE CAN INSULT WHAT A CRAZY IDEA.

xMellowhype, don't play along with his trolling.  He is just trying to bait you into his shenannigans.

[Gigamantis]

xMellowhype wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

Alent wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...
If you'd been paying attention at all you would know this isn't about integrating criticism into future art, it's about completely abandoning your vision because you're bullied out of it.  RPG players can't handle sad endings.  RPG players don't like open-ended themes.  Great notes for future development, but that doesn't mean you get to tear down and recreate a painting that's already finished.  

If Mass Effect was a movie and ended the way it did and the test audience had the same reaction as a majority of the fans did would they have changed the ending or stuck with their "vision" even if that meant it would tank in theaters?  I can tell you what most movie producers do: they would rewrite the ending.

Awesome.  Now I know the retakers how no idea how movies work. 

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Ad_hominem 

How many of those now? 237502380 just by you? Can you just leave the forums already and go back to the sociopathic and well deserved bullfied life you live?

WOW TWO PEOPLE CAN INSULT WHAT A CRAZY IDEA.

ZOMG u called me a sociopath?  I'd better cry and link wikipedia!

Come on kids, you're tougher than this.  If I'm getting to you this badly it's no wonder the ending to ME3 broke you.  It was some emotional stuff. 

[Kitedtk]

Guys anyway, i've got an actual question... in the idea i posed, my concept was to remove the catalyst and instead have the twist be the crucible being a Reaper trap, this was an idea i came up with and was also mentioned in the first video i linked in my earlier post... what do you guys think of such an idea... i think it would be a better twist than removing the importance from shepard at the last minute... which is exactly what the catalyst does.

Modifié par Kitedtk, 03 avril 2012 - 06:50 .

[Gigamantis]

Ashilana wrote...

xMellowhype wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

Awesome.  Now I know the retakers how no idea how movies work. 

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Ad_hominem 

How many of those now? 237502380 just by you? Can you just leave the forums already and go back to the sociopathic and well deserved bullfied life you live?

WOW TWO PEOPLE CAN INSULT WHAT A CRAZY IDEA.

xMellowhype, don't play along with his trolling.  He is just trying to bait you into his shenannigans.

He's just angry because all of his pixelated friends died at the end of ME3.  How would you feel if your only friends died?

Modifié par Gigamantis, 03 avril 2012 - 06:50 .

[WizenSlinky0]

Gigamantis wrote...

You're being obtuse.  You can't ignore the destructive nature of how this movement was conducted by saying "at least I got what I wanted."  If the ending is changed it sets precedent for things that will invalidate the use of actual writing in games.  You think you want to be able to force everything to end exactly how you want it to, but that's going to get shallow and boring very fast once it's common. 

I've already said it but if Bioware starts letting the fans do that now I'll personally be done with them.  They can let the forums do their writing and I'll stick with the companies who still hire out that work to talented people. 

I think I'm being reasonable. But if you don't believe so then I certainly have no intention of attempting to prove you otherwise. Especially when I didn't even mention anything of the sort. I said that in the end even if I don't get what I'd prefer that Bioware at least had to reflect on the reaction, something they may not have done had the movement not begun considering the current cultural atmosphere of game development that is publisher-centric.

In the end, what they do is irrelevent. Whether I'm happy or still unsatisfied by the conclusion is irrelevent. The fact Bioware had to actually comment and discuss, rather than ignore, how their ending was met by fans...is a big deal and an important thing.

It doesn't set a precedent for anything. Developers can, at their whim, continue to put out games fans will be disappointed by. It's their choice. They just can't expect to make money on them. Nobody can force them to do anything. They could very easily say "Enjoy the ending or GTFO" as their exact PR response. It would not make a difference to anything except their profit margin.

And how is you being done with them for deciding to adjust, change, or add endings any different from people who are done with them for them deciding not to? You're generalizing why they did something. If they outright say they determined their ending was not up to par and needed to be expanded on, that they WANTED to do so? Would you still be done with them? Call them liars who gave into bullying? Kind of like the movement you are insulting have done, calling their press releases before the game outright lies?

Right or wrong you're applying the same logic as the movement you decry, just in the opposite direction.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. You, and those with similar posts, are the opposite reaction to the force of the Retake movement. If you consider them the "extreme" of one side then you inherently encompass the "extreme" of the other side. And 9 times out of 10 the extreme reaction to any situation, at either end,  is over the top and unwarrented.

[Alent]

Ashilana wrote...
xMellowhype, don't play along with his trolling.  He is just trying to bait you into his shenannigans.

Seconded.  I played into the trolling too, my mistake.

By the way, I may have missed this but has no new ending DLC been confirmed as official yet?

[Gigamantis]

Kitedtk wrote...

Guys anyway, i've got an actual question... in the idea i posed, my concept was to remove the catalyst and instead have the twist be the crucible being a Reaper trap, this was an idea i came up with and was also mentioned in the first video i linked in my earlier post... what do you guys think of such an idea... i think it would be a better twist than removing the importance from shepard at the last minute... which is exactly what the catalyst does.

It could be a decent ending if done well.  I'm fine with the original, though.

[Dunmer of Redoran]

I cannot believe that people are seriously believing a statement made by a Mexican corporate.

Seriously.

[Kitedtk]

Gigamantis wrote...

Kitedtk wrote...

Guys anyway, i've got an actual question... in the idea i posed, my concept was to remove the catalyst and instead have the twist be the crucible being a Reaper trap, this was an idea i came up with and was also mentioned in the first video i linked in my earlier post... what do you guys think of such an idea... i think it would be a better twist than removing the importance from shepard at the last minute... which is exactly what the catalyst does.

It could be a decent ending if done well.  I'm fine with the original, though.

yes we all know you would be, which is why it wasn't posed to you... if you want to keep the ending you have fine... great. You've already got that... now let us talk about what we'd like

[Iconoclaste]

What might be the fuel for trolling?

Sociopathy? No... Masochism.

Trolls need some kind of a "kink" to invest themselves so much into it.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 03 avril 2012 - 06:54 .

[Captain Arty]

Gigamantis wrote...

Giga, let me ask you a simple, direct question. Do you think the ending
as it stands now is a fitting conclusion to the rest of the series?

Do
you think it fits the theme of all three games? Do you think it
satisfies the plot? Do you think it satisfies the premise of choices
affecting the outcome?

If you think it does, I would love to here
you justification. If you agree that it does not, than you agree that
the ending is broken and does not work as it is. If you agree the ending
is broken, but do not want it fixed, why not? Because you're frustrated
with people on the forums that want it fixed?

All we're asking
for is a fitting conclusion. We are not specifying how that conclusion
be reached. We have suggestions, but not demands. The developers are
free to ignore our suggestions. We are free to pass on their next
product if we don't like what they come up with. It's as simple as that.

I do think it was a fitting conclusion to the series.  It fits the theme of the first 2 games and adds some new open-ended content to the resolution.  The crucible and the catalyst could've used some more foundation but were interesting, and the choices you had to make at the end were very difficult and emotionally heavy.  I liked the ending way more than ME2's and it's close with ME1's. 

I wasn't really expecting a happy ending to all of this and my choices provided enough variety for me.  I didn't want a rainbow and a dance contest at the end of it like a lot of you did; multiple heavy handed endings were fine for me.

I have to strongly disagree with you that it fits the theme of the series. It certainly does not satisfy the plot line and in fact creates a plethora of new plot holes--not an open ending--actual logical failures. The most egregious is the catalyst's reason for the having the Reapers in the first place. He wants to save organics from a war with synthetics by waging a galactic war on organics with synthetics. The logical failure there is so obvious and so painful, it would be enough to ruin the ending alone, but  there are many, many other reasons why the current ending is broken and terrible. Again, read blog in my sig for more info.

But regardless. I'm reading through your long string of posts in this thread...

There are movies, stories, and games that I like that most people do not like. We need to respect everyone's opinion. You don't have to agree with it. You can ignore it, or you can debate it, but making personal attacks accomplishes nothing and compromises your own credibility.

And just some advice on forum etiquette from an old fart: Calling others childish is a common way to reveal yourself to be a child, or at least immature enough to be a child. It clearly highlights that you haven't given the arguments for and against a new ending the proper amount of thought they require.

Modifié par Captain Arty, 03 avril 2012 - 06:56 .

[Dunmer of Redoran]

Alent wrote...

Ashilana wrote...
xMellowhype, don't play along with his trolling.  He is just trying to bait you into his shenannigans.

Seconded.  I played into the trolling too, my mistake.

By the way, I may have missed this but has no new ending DLC been confirmed as official yet?

A corporate guy from Mexico gave us the information.

Is it REALLY prudent to put stock into that kind of guy?

[Silver]

Nice Job, EA/BioWare, you just lost a customer...

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

why is being Mexican and less creditable than being American?


anyway guess there is no confirmation yet?

[Alent]

DaftArbiter wrote...
A corporate guy from Mexico gave us the information.

Is it REALLY prudent to put stock into that kind of guy?

Hence my request for local confirmation.  Not that there is anything wrong with Latin American media, mostly because I like independant verification.

[Gigamantis]

I think I'm being reasonable. But if you don't believe so then I
certainly have no intention of attempting to prove you otherwise.
Especially when I didn't even mention anything of the sort. I said that
in the end even if I don't get what I'd prefer that Bioware at least had
to reflect on the reaction, something they may not have done had the
movement not begun considering the current cultural atmosphere of game
development that is publisher-centric.

In the end, what they do
is irrelevent. Whether I'm happy or still unsatisfied by the conclusion
is irrelevent. The fact Bioware had to actually comment and discuss,
rather than ignore, how their ending was met by fans...is a big deal and
an important thing.

It doesn't set a precedent for anything.
Developers can, at their whim, continue to put out games fans will be
disappointed by. It's their choice. They just can't expect to make money
on them. Nobody can force them to do anything. They could very easily
say "Enjoy the ending or GTFO" as their exact PR response. It would not
make a difference to anything except their profit margin.

Again, I want Bioware to ignore tantrums and bully tactics, but that's what the majority of this movement was.  I do think they should acknowledge the constructive fans, few they may be, but they should do what is most creatively satisfying.  The fans ideas, honestly, have been absolutely horrible for the most part so hopefully they're not actually being considered as appeasement.

Also, the precedent it sets is for boring formulaic games that try not to upset anyone.  That's fine in the short term but gets boring really fast.  Any company that wants to have any kind of future needs to let the creative people be creative.  That means that while they can acknowledge their uncreative fans they still need to let the actual creative people work uninhibited.

[dawtree]

Okay, since many people dont seem to be seeing this, I'm going to post it again. I tweeted the Mass Effect twitter and got this response:

twitter.com/#!/dawtree/status/187068831632592896

In which they say unless it's from an official EA/BioWare/Mass Effect source, treat it as rumor and speculation. They also went on to say that they will make an announcement for potential DLC on their blog and on Twitter.

[Errant_Geth]

Well this just further solidifies the statements they've already made. They're CLARIFYING not CHANGING. Big difference, and I believed it when Ray first made the post saying so, and I still believe it seeing this new source.

And at this point, I think in my personal canon I'm going to say the Mass Effect series was a duology, and the third game did not exist in the Mass Effect universe.

Think of it: The large and diverse-looking Reaper fleet is headed toward the galaxy, Shepard has his deadly-dozen still assembled, his badass upgraded ship and weapons, etc. He has the schematics of Harbinger and a galaxy of possibilities.

We don't have to believe ME3 if we don't want to.

[Captain Arty]

Alent wrote...

DaftArbiter wrote...
A corporate guy from Mexico gave us the information.

Is it REALLY prudent to put stock into that kind of guy?

Hence my request for local confirmation.  Not that there is anything wrong with Latin American media, mostly because I like independant verification.

Who knows what type of fix is in the works. It could be that whatever/patch/fix/do-nothing they come up with will only be released in markets where there is a sales issue.

The best thing you can do if you don't like the ending is TO NOT BUY DLC until they fix the ending. The DLC from this game was to be a major cash cow for EA and Bioware.

Stand fast. Stand strong. Stand together. Hackett out.

[Dunmer of Redoran]

DinoSteve wrote...

why is being Mexican and less creditable than being American?


anyway guess there is no confirmation yet?

Because Mexican authorities (big biz corporates, politicians, etc.) are typically corrupt as hell, even worse than American ones are.

Not a knock to the average Mexican person, mind.