Gigamantis wrote...
1. The collectors were just gathering data and humans to create husks and a human reaper. They were obviously just part of the preparation phase for a full on attack. Sovereign could have also just been a means to test the waters before a full scale attack. It's war preparation.1. That doesn't answer my question. Let me elaborate a bit more to be
clearer. Why were the Collectors making a human Reaper when the Reapers
had almost arrived, and would have centuries to make Reapers? The
Collectors, of course, also beg another question: If all they were doing
was getting a head start on Reaper production for no apparent reason,
why weren't they used to help ensure that Sovereign succeeded? What is
their point otherwise? In Karpyshyn's (sic) ending, it was because they
were examining species to address a particular problem which the Reapers
were trying to solve, which humanity had the most likely solution to.
But now, with this ending, they serve no real purpose except for Shepard
to kill them.
2. No, it wasn't 'overtaking' or surpassing, it was
'turning on and destroying' that he feared. Those are the exact words he
uses to describe it, and calls it inevitable. The fact that the creator
might be synthetic is irrelevant. The point is that something created
to serve can turn on the creator that made it as slaves if it is truly
intelligent, which the Reapers are. If they do not, then it disproves
his entire assertion that it is inevitable. His solution as it stands is
logically absurd.
3. Yes, I know, that is the only explanation. But
why? Why create a solution which you have so little ability to affect?
Essentially 'firing and releasing' a solution of synthetics, when the
reason behind making it is that synthetics will always rebel and destroy
their creators/organics.
4. No. Shepard, Anderson, they both stand
on this platform before - it's right in front of the control panel that
they have used. Yet when Shepard collapses, too weak to fight on, it
admits him. Without this, he would have failed, and the cycle would have
continued. If this is just another example of the Catalyst's irrational
construction 'If someone's dying, and they collapse here, bring them up
to the catalyst roof. People who are about to fail must be allowed to
win instead if they're actualy standing right there.'), this is yet
another idiotic, nonsensical feature to the ending.
5. "The fact you
have reached here proves my solution will no longer work." 1: Why? 2:
Without his advice, how would Shepard know how to use these devices? He
enables *the dying* Shepard to beat the cycle. Without his advice,
Shepard might have stumbled around blind going 'What the **** is all
this ****, and how does it help me?' until he either bleeds out or the
Reapers, who, if you remember, currently occupy the Citadel, finally
send reinforcements and finish him off. He's certainly not going to
think about just shooting everything, or jumping into beams, or randomly
putting his arms into some big glowy electrodes. These are all actions
which would be naturally counter-intuitive to getting a device to work.
He explicitly states, 'The fact that you are here proves my solution
will no longer work. So we must find a new solution,' and then proceeds
to do nothing of the sort, especially if you don't get a high enough
readiness to achieve synthesis.
6. 'Or something else'. So, an energy
being? If he is not an AI, then why is he limited to the Citadel?
There's all sorts of things he could have done to aid his homeboy
Reapers in the preceeding games. He could have undone the Protheans'
work, for example. And, if he is an independant non-machine entity that
only resides in the Citadel, then why does the Crucible's docking with
the Citadel alter him directly? And don't say that it's because the
Crucible was designed to interact with the Catalyst, because noone has
encountered it before, and hence could not know what it is.
7. A waste of time? Really? Shepard is not that
close to death - he has the strength to take a running leap/fire an
enormous pistol with one arm, and also potentially to survive the
destruction of the Citadel. A few minutes argument, which could persuade
the Reapers' creator that he is wrong, and should do something about
that himself?
8. "All forces wiped out, retreat!" Those exact words.
Noone made it to the beam, and they were right behind you - I know,
because I goddamned checked on my second playthrough, about five seconds
before the inevitable beam blast. The notion that your comrades are at
*least* as badly wounded as you is reinforced by the fact you are left
there to die alone. The galaxy's greatest hero, and their best friend,
and they don't even check for a pulse, or retrieve you for medical
attention. Unless they were also desperately running for the beam,
because saving the galaxy is more important than even *your* life. But
they don't. They certainly don't do an Anderson and make a run towards
the beam now that Harbinger's gone. Therefore, they have bitten the
dust. And yet they appear in the Normandy, having fled the most critical
battle in the history of life ever, with no actual way of knowing
what's just happened, and seem pretty cheerful about crashlanding on an
unknown planet.
9. You misunderstand me. I'm talking about within the
context of this particular game. The Reapers spread rapidly across the
entire galaxy, so they certainly could have reached the Citadel as
quickly as they could have reached, say, Palaven, yet the Citadel is
largely ignored until it actually poses a direct threat. Why did they
leave it alone for so long, when it is, as they well knew, the heart of
galactic government?
10. The Illusive Man told them of humanity's
plan to convince them to take the Citadel. They knew from before you
killed Kai Leng, so well before the council races tried to retake Earth.
Even if not, I don't know about you, but the moment I saw an enormous
unarmed spaceship with a vast powersource turn up, I'd get suspicious,
and at least cripple its engines.
Couple more...
11. Why not
temporarily turn off the beam to the citadel, if it's such a threat that
they send down their largest most powerful warship to kill attackers?
Is it that they can't? Again, seems like a pretty big design flaw if not
- yet another example of the bumbling billion-year old
hyper-intelligent super-advanced machines, I suppose.
12. Why is
there human lettering on the Catalyst's area, when no organic has ever
seen it before? And no, they're not part of the Crucible, I did check.
Bit of a glaringly obvious error, isn't it? Almost like the ending was
deliberately flawed, or rushed out...
2. The catalyst was afraid that synthetics he wasn't controlling would turn on organics and wipe them out. The reapers are the catalysts tools and he's clearly something beyond usual organics.
3. The reapers are the catalysts tools, he can control them and uses them only for these cleansing cycles. They may also be his only means but he clearly doesn't consider them dangerous, PROBABLY because he controls them. At best it's ironic that synthetics are deployed to prevent a synthetic overtaking, but this is definitely NOT a plothole.
4. Shepard did something at the console to activate the crucible but was informed by Hackett that it wasn't firing. Only after that did stumbling onto the platform ascend him to the chamber with the catalyst and the firing mechanisms.
5. There were 2 clear paths and it wasn't all that confusing. The catalyst probably didn't want Shepard stumbling into a solution without understanding the consequences. Knowing the cleansing attempt was most likely over the catalyst probably just wanted Shepard to make an informed decision when using the crucible to end it.
6. They didn't explain what the catalyst is exactly, but they gave us a pretty good idea what it can and can't do. He's some form of life that controls the reapers to initiate a cleansing cycle and can only be interacted with through the crucible. If he could do any of the things you're alluding to, and actually wanted to, he probably would have. They don't really get into the catalysts intentions; it's an open-ended plot device.
7. Shepard could barely stand at that point and being able to move doesn't mean you're not close to bleeding to death. Let me be clear, this is absolutely NOT a plothole. Sparking a debate when you might not even be able to crawl to either solution in a couple minutes is foolish.
8. Right, no one else made it to the beam. You were hit, unconscious for a undisclosed amount of time, and likely assumed to be dead. Your squad may have A) Been still unconscious when you entered the crucible and picked up while you were inside, orAssumed you were dead when you were laying their unconscious and forced to retreat without gathering your body. This isn't a plothole either.
9. It's because it was the center of the gallactic government that it was likely the most difficult to invade, especially since the galaxy is unified in fighting them back. It stands to reason that the reapers couldn't just brute force the citadel and had to wage war on multiple fronts to keep people occupied. The reapers were portrayed as powerful, but not so powerful they could've just taken out the heart and ended it whenever they felt like. They were being held off even when just attacking Earth and Palaven.
10. It was obvious their goal was to hit the Citadel but it's likely not that easy. If no battles were staged at any other points all forces would be defending the citadel and it would've taken just as long, if not longer, to take it down. Waging war on multiple fronts is basic strategy.
11. It stands to reason that it can't just be shut off. There's a war being waged around it and the reaper warships are fairly occupied.
12. The catalyst obviously understood and spoke english, and just because the catalyst inhabits that area doesn't mean he created it. Since that area was the crucibles trigger it even stands to reason that it was part of the crucible itself, which was built by organics.
1. Still doesn't answer my question. WHY ARE THEY BUILDING A HUMAN REAPER ALREADY instead of assisting an actual Reaper to succeed in its mission? Sovereign is aware that it isn't completely invulnerable, however powerful, and the Collectors are actually more advanced than the Geth, so much so that they are supposedly capable of 'hitting Earth'. Sovereign's mission is meant to alow the Reapers to decapitate galactic leadership and allow them to launch a violent surprise attack against the galaxy, that has assured victory countless times before. What is so important about the humans that Harbinger orders the Collectors to not only be about their business instead of ensuring the success of their tried-and-tested tactics, but to escalate it and risk drawing attention to them and being targeted by the galaxy as a threat? In one of the endings proposed by one of the writers, this made sense, with the human Reaper having a vital part to paly in the future of the universe, and ME2 was seemingly designed with this ending in mind. But it doesn't now. Was the whole point of ME2 really nothing more than an elaborate sidequest?
2. How does him not being organic prevent their rebellion? If he breaks the rules of the universe using
space magic, then OK, it's semi-logical, but it is still a cheap
storytelling device, and throws up its own problems. He's either able to continuously influence them - in which case, you certainly should be able to persuade him to call them off instead of needing us to devastate the galaxy with the crucible once you have proved that organic exinction at the hands of synthetics is not inevitable, as I have argued you should be able to, and also impacts their status as 'each a nation, independent and free of all weakness', which is not only asserted by them, but confirmed by Legion. Alternatively, he's able to make them somehow so that they do not rebel against their purpose, in which case he could just show organics the secret of it. Seriously, look at the Reapers. They are ridiculously arrogant and superior. If they have free will (a prerequisite for true intelligence), they would seriously be chomping at the bit, desperate to rebel.
3. Again, the Reapers are independent, free of all weakness. They are each a nation. They are highly intelligent, far above us in their capabilities. His 'solution' to the problem that synthetic intelligencess rebel against their masters is to use synthetic intelligences of exceptional arrogance and cruelty. The mere fact he uses this overrides his assertion that synthetic dominance is inevitable otherwise, because eithe *he* has found a control method for them that works even on the most ridiculously powerful of machines, or machines can be made that inherently enjoy their work and will not rebel. At the very least, Bioware should have allowed us to ask HOW he achieves this non-rebellion, but doesn't, because they didn't think their ending through. WHUT.
4. Shepard opened the arms, allowing the Crucible to dock, then leaves the console and slumps next to Anderson. Perhaps the Citadel is programmed to make it so that, once the Crucible (a device not conceived of during its construction) is docked, it will automatically take Shepard up and end the cycles. Except that the Catalyst states that if Shepard doesn't pick Synthesis, then synthetics will wipe out all organic life, and apparently he was only aware of these possibilities once the Crucible was docked. So, the Citadel responds *automatically* to something that could not have been foreseen, to allow someone to bring about the worst fears of the Catalyst? Again, WHUT.
5. Firstly, there were three clear paths. To mysterious unknown objects and a big beam. Clear paths is not clear purpose. For all Shepard knows, blowing these up will blow the Citadel and Catalyst up and achieve nothing. Maybe the Crucible needs activating on the other side, and the scientists haven't figured that out yet? And why would the Catalyst care what Shepard did? If Shepard broke the control mechanism for the Crucible, then the Catalyst has succeeded, and the cycle of his solution continues. Him simply being there does not prove the cycle can't work. If he succeeds, then he achieves what the Catalyst wants him to anyway. The alternative is that the Catalyst can't decide which is the best option, but wants to do one. But, besides synthesis, neither of them achieve his solution (And even if they did, this dude took it upon himself to launch an eternal system of horrific murder of septillions of conscious beings, why so indecisive all of a sudden?). So why not just say 'Hey, if you run into that beam, you will end the cycle by ending the differences between synthetics and organics. Anything else will do nothing. That's right, I said NOTHING.' Why is he leaving it to Shepard to decide?
6. What tells you what it is capable of? Your second sentence summarises *all* the information we were given about it. As I have explained already, by limiting its capabilities to not directly control the Reapers, you create independent synthetics that have not rebelled in millions of years of self-determination, thus disproving his assertion. By giving him direct power over them, they are not only changed drastically from the Reapers we know and love to hate, he has the capacity to direct their movements completely, and would clearly have the ability to turn them around and send them away. Again, if he doesn't want to, WHY is he helping Shepard to do just that? That *is* a logical paradox, and there is no way around it.
7. Well, I'm not a medical professional, so I wouldn't feel comfortable saying that if you have the energy to stride purposefully whilst shooting a gun, you probably have the energy to at least *try* and say 'But, the Geth refrained from killing their creators, and now live peacefully with them, and I have a loyal AI crew member who is romantically involved with an organic. PLEASE CALL YOUR REAPERS OFF, WE CAN LIVE IN PEACE'. But I AM pretty sure that doesn't qualify as a debate, so much as a reasoned plea. Perhaps it is not a plot hole, but it is certainly a plot weak point, and uncharacteristic of Shepard. At least, for mine, which raises this key point: Surely that should be a choice that should be made by the CONTROLLING player, rather than a decision made for us which we have to sit through. WE, after all, decide Shepard's character and actions. It's one of ME's key features. I don't want to be drawn on that, because it's not a plot hole, and I'm already being long winded as it is.
8. That has not addressed my concerns on this. I do not want to repeat myself, but I suppose I will have to. There are several scenarios, each with issues of plausability/logic.
A: Your squadmates are knocked out at the same time as, and hence next to, you. If this is so, why can you not see them when you wake up?
B: Your squadmates are knocked out after you. In which case, why would at least one of them not *check* to see if you're alive? Especially if you've brought a LI with you. Checking for a pulse is *really* easy, and as devoted friends and well trained soldiers, and you being a major galactic hero and rallying point, I'm pretty sure that they'd at least try to carry you out of the beam instead of leaving you to get processed - that ****'ll get you a VC or MoH, or whatever the ME equivalent is. That, or they'd carry on to the beam, trying to save the galaxy, and be in front of you as you approach it.
As for picking them up in general... Why send them back to the Normandy, a ship currently engaged in battle, instead of a field hospital? Why do they climb out of the Normandy completely unscathed? If people are able to collect them whilst you're at the citadel, why does noone follow you through the beam? Have the Reapers finally shut it off? And if so, why haven't they done that earlier? Again, are they bumbling space-chumps?
9. Actually, they were not being held off when attacking Earth. They took Earth, embarassingly quickly, devastating half our navy in the process. And Palaven was still being devastated, even if the Turians (the alrgest navy in the galaxy) were managing to slow them down at times. Even in the actual mission, fairly early on in the Reaper offensive against Palaven, huge areas of the planet are just devastated and on fire. At the end of the game, when they actually get around to taking the Citadel, they're spread out everywhere, over Thessia, Surkesh, Palaven, Earth, the homeworlds of the Volus, Batarians, Elkor, numerous colonies, and are STILL finding time to chase you down if you scan too much. They're able to use Mass Relays much more effectively than we are, they could have pounced their entire fleet, which is able to match the assembled ships of the rest of the galaxy quite easily, on the Citadel ANY time they wanted to.
10. Why would all forces be defending just the Citadel? They certainly wouldn't be doing that if they were also defending Alliance territories and Palaven. And again, spread out across the entire galaxy, fighting most of the council's collected forces, the Reapers were still winning. If they weren't, why would we have worried about the Crucible? Wouldn't we have just gone, 'Hey, we don't *have* to play with this dangerous potentially apocalyptic toy, we're already winning. Sure, we will lose people, but at least we definitely won't wipe out the entire galaxy.' If the collected fleets attacking Earth were capable of matching the Reapers, why fling things at them so desperately?
11. That is not an answer. Again, it is a priority target, the Reapers know what its purpose is. Disabling it destroys organic hope of victory. They are capable of detaching Harbinger from the main fight to attack ground forces, when another destroyer or two might've been just as good. 'Stands to reason' just doesn't cut it, as it does not stand to reason. Even a single sovereign-class Reaper on a suicide run would've handed the galaxy to the machines in one blow.
12. No, he explicitly states that organics have never been here before, and that you are in his home. It is not the Crucible as that is not his home, and organics stood there whilst building it (You can even see that the pieces with it on are not part of the crucible. Look around you in the final area, you can see exactly where the crucible ends and the citadel begins), nor is there any reason to assume that his ability to understand and speak your language means that he would write 'M1' on the citadel millions of years ago.
Retour en haut
)
