186 réponses à ce sujet

[abaris]

kalle90 wrote...

Skyrim is better simply when standing on some mountain or anywhere and looking at how day turns into night turns into day.

That is art, joy to look at. Not any of the clunky small areas or disconnecting conversations of ME3. No Skyrim isn't perfect either, especially as a pure RPG, but it's close.

Completely different game, completely different game experience.

You can't really compare those two, since Skyrim does offer very little in ways of story. You're choices have next to none consequences. It is a sandbox and - like every Elder Scroll game - lives and thrives by it's modding community. I would certainly wish that kind of possibility on the Mass Effect series, but that's not gonna happen.

Skyrim had and has it's own issues. At the release date it was a bug fest complete with rebooting computers and other game breaking features, made worse by the first patches. The general consensus was, it was a rush job to meet the sexy release date of 11.11.11. Just as with ME3.

[daftPirate]

Nadya2 wrote...

daftPirate wrote...

Nadya2 wrote...

Skyrim wins, but not just skyrim. Fallout, the witcher Drakensang and even Dragon age 2, Beat ME3 easy without a single blink.

they came up with a subpar and very mediocre joke to punch everyone of their fans on the face.

See, its hard to take this seriously by itself. Is there a reason for all this, or is that ending hate talking? What did you expect ME3 to do that it didn't? The ending I can [somewhat] understand, but its hard to believe people calling out a game's downfall based on things like the journal, or that they didn't have as many interactive conversations.

i could never end writing a list of things , that went wrong with ME3.    all that without including  the ending.

But you were anticipating it before release, weren't you? What did you expect? If the list is that extensive, just mention the major things, then. I mean, if anyone wants to say the ending soured ME3 or the entire franchise for them, fine, but what flaws destroyed ME3, compared to any other new game? It just sounds like you had to wade through it painfully even to reach the ending.

[Dude_in_the_Room]

abaris wrote...

kalle90 wrote...

Skyrim is better simply when standing on some mountain or anywhere and looking at how day turns into night turns into day.

That is art, joy to look at. Not any of the clunky small areas or disconnecting conversations of ME3. No Skyrim isn't perfect either, especially as a pure RPG, but it's close.

Completely different game, completely different game experience.

You can't really compare those two, since Skyrim does offer very little in ways of story. You're choices have next to none consequences. It is a sandbox and - like every Elder Scroll game - lives and thrives by it's modding community. I would certainly wish that kind of possibility on the Mass Effect series, but that's not gonna happen.

Skyrim had and has it's own issues. At the release date it was a bug fest complete with rebooting computers and other game breaking features, made worse by the first patches. The general consensus was, it was a rush job to meet the sexy release date of 11.11.11. Just as with ME3.

Both are games.  Both are RPG games. 

It's completely reasonable to compare them.  This whole illusion that things of the same genre are "apples and oranges" and can't be compared b/c they are simply diffferent is getting stupidly ridiculous.

It's like saying you can't compare colors b/c one is bright and the other is just a different shade of bright which is dark....................

Modifié par Dude_in_the_Room, 03 avril 2012 - 08:18 .

[kelsjet]

IntoTheDarkness wrote...
i'm comparing games on different genre.

Skyrim is generally perceived as the best on its genre.

Mass Effect 3, on the other hand, I highly doubt it if anyone would consider it the best theme part RPG since ME2 already beats it.

This is a valid comparison.

If the OP meant to compare each game relative to its respective, percieved genre, then I'm not sure if ME3 can hold a candle to Skyrim.

That being said, I think the key is to also consider a possibility that ME3 might not neccisarrily part of some already existing genre at all, but be either in some 'new' or heavily expanded genre instead. Or perhaps the general 'perception' of ME3's genre is inaccurate.

[Well]

daftPirate wrote...

Well wrote...

daftPirate wrote...

Nadya2 wrote...

Skyrim wins, but not just skyrim. Fallout, the witcher Drakensang and even Dragon age 2, Beat ME3 easy without a single blink.

they came up with a subpar and very mediocre joke to punch everyone of their fans on the face.

See, its hard to take this seriously by itself. Is there a reason for all this, or is that ending hate talking? What did you expect ME3 to do that it didn't? The ending I can [somewhat] understand, but its hard to believe people calling out a game's downfall based on things like the journal, or that they didn't have as many interactive conversations.

Maybe because it isn't one thing but many issues found with the game.Why all this hate for those thaat disagree with you?You forgot to add in whiners,Disneyland endings and the rest of the talking points.

I'm sorry if anything I said sounded hateful, not my intention. I'm not following what you mean about whiners or disneyland endings. Was that in reference to something I said?

In any debate, or discussion, though I like to invest myself in both sides of the issue, and I sincerely want to know what was ME3's downfall for people? On topic, I guess a comparison to Skyrim would suffice (I don't really care too much about the "apples oranges" thing), something that amounts to what did you expect ME3 to do differently? What are these paralyzing issues, and how do they compare, in this case, with issues the Skyrim had when it came out? That particular question I can't answer because I haven't played Skyrim, and most of what I've heard about it has been on these forums, so mostly negative in comparison, but quite likely biased as well.

That one is on me.As soon as I saw hate red flag went up.That is why the talking point spiel.My apoligizes.I jumped to conclusions.Now for the rest.As far as the game.It was a combination of things that made it just average for me.As I stated.Being a avid reader for 45 years endings are keystones to a book sucess.Just like the Start and middle.It all has to gell to me.

[Nadya2]

daftPirate wrote...

Nadya2 wrote...

daftPirate wrote...

Nadya2 wrote...

Skyrim wins, but not just skyrim. Fallout, the witcher Drakensang and even Dragon age 2, Beat ME3 easy without a single blink.

they came up with a subpar and very mediocre joke to punch everyone of their fans on the face.

See, its hard to take this seriously by itself. Is there a reason for all this, or is that ending hate talking? What did you expect ME3 to do that it didn't? The ending I can [somewhat] understand, but its hard to believe people calling out a game's downfall based on things like the journal, or that they didn't have as many interactive conversations.

i could never end writing a list of things , that went wrong with ME3.    all that without including  the ending.

But you were anticipating it before release, weren't you? What did you expect? If the list is that extensive, just mention the major things, then. I mean, if anyone wants to say the ending soured ME3 or the entire franchise for them, fine, but what flaws destroyed ME3, compared to any other new game? It just sounds like you had to wade through it painfully even to reach the ending.

actually no,  i wasen't anticipating it before release.  in fact i purchased the game a week or so after it was released from the store.

game was too short,  0 exploration (this is something i loved doing in ME1)  0 replayability, i played 1 and 2 at least 4 times each.  horrible quest log, horrible side quests.  big nasty issue with the Face imports.  bad quality textures all over,   too many auto dialogs (i felt like i was playing L.A noire)  horrible acting from some characters, (Diana allers)  etc, etc

[kalle90]

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

abaris wrote...

kalle90 wrote...

Skyrim is better simply when standing on some mountain or anywhere and looking at how day turns into night turns into day.

That is art, joy to look at. Not any of the clunky small areas or disconnecting conversations of ME3. No Skyrim isn't perfect either, especially as a pure RPG, but it's close.

Completely different game, completely different game experience.

You can't really compare those two, since Skyrim does offer very little in ways of story. You're choices have next to none consequences. It is a sandbox and - like every Elder Scroll game - lives and thrives by it's modding community. I would certainly wish that kind of possibility on the Mass Effect series, but that's not gonna happen.

Skyrim had and has it's own issues. At the release date it was a bug fest complete with rebooting computers and other game breaking features, made worse by the first patches. The general consensus was, it was a rush job to meet the sexy release date of 11.11.11. Just as with ME3.

Both are games.  Both are RPG games. 

It's completely reasonable to compare them.  This whole illusion that things of the same genre are "apples and oranges" and can't be compared b/c they are simply diffferent is getting stupidly ridiculous.

It's like saying you can't compare colors b/c one is bright and the other is just a different shade of bright which is dark....................

Also, I prefer oranges. It's my opinion, but so is everyone elses. There is no universal truth whether ME3 is better or worse than Skyrim.

[kelsjet]

Well wrote...
Being a avid reader for 45 years endings are keystones to a book sucess.Just like the Start and middle.It all has to gell to me.

This is also a valid point.

If I think of all the "Sagas" that I have read and which I will deeply remember, especially in sci fi or fantasy, the ending could easily have ruined it and made it so that the entire series much less memorable. 

That being said, I actually don't think the ending of ME3, from a storyline standpoint, is actually that bad. The execution? Sure some things here or there, but nothing critically broken. 

Now that's not to say that the Mass Effect series from a literary standpoint can compete with say the Rama series by Clark, but it can still hold its own and actually comes out on top when compared to its peers, that is, other games.

Especially when most other 'popular' games have a story that basically comprises of "HYURR DURR KILL TERZRORITZ!!!"

Modifié par kelsjet, 03 avril 2012 - 08:35 .

[Well]

kalle90 "There is no universal truth"

That should be stickied.On ever thread.

[daftPirate]

Nadya2 wrote...

actually no,  i wasen't anticipating it before release.  in fact i purchased the game a week or so after it was released from the store.

game was too short,  0 exploration (this is something i loved doing in ME1)  0 replayability, i played 1 and 2 at least 4 times each.  horrible quest log, horrible side quests.  big nasty issue with the Face imports.  bad quality textures all over,   too many auto dialogs (i felt like i was playing L.A noire)  horrible acting from some characters, (Diana allers)  etc, etc

I see. I just assumed such a passionate response came as a result of the anticipation for the conlcusion to the trilogy. In my opinion, though, many of these issues are based on expectations and are, at least in part, subjective. The game was certainly shorter than previous instalments, but not by much (ME2 and ME3 without DLC don't have much time difference). On that point, not an issue for me, I had no expectations for the game's length, and found ME3 involving despite being shorter (right now). Replayability I'd say is the sum of any and all issues with a game. The more pros and fewer cons you have with it, the more replayable.

The journal was indeed, weak and barely functional, but it really didn't need to do much anyway, and it's far from game breaking. By sidequests do you mean the fetch quests or things like grissom and the N7 missions? In another conversation someone compared the fetch quests to ME2's resource gathering, which I thought was fitting, and I felt that ME3's resource gathering tied in much better with the setting the way it used cultural relics, refugees and the war effort, and reconnecting with old squad mates in the side missions was fun (though I was disappointed with length and involvement of some, like Kasumi, and Zaeed, their general influence on the game was cool).

The face import was, again, not much more than a small setback. Faces aren't hard to reconstruct, and its already been announced that the issue will be fixed in the first patch.

I guess what this comes down to is: did you feel the same way about Skyrim? I noticed you haven't mentioned it in any of your posts. It's not really a sequel with an immediate lore to uphold, but how were its issues at release less game breaking?

[Well]

kelsjet wrote...

Well wrote...
Being a avid reader for 45 years endings are keystones to a book sucess.Just like the Start and middle.It all has to gell to me.

This is also a valid point.

If I think of all the "Sagas" that I have read and which I will deeply remember, especially in sci fi or fantasy, the ending could easily have ruined it and made it so that the entire series much less memorable. 

That being said, I actually don't think the ending of ME3, from a storyline standpoint, is actually that bad. The execution? Sure some things here or there, but nothing critically broken. 

Now that's not to say that the Mass Effect series from a literary standpoint can compete with say the Rama series by Clark, but it can still hold its own and actually comes out on top when compared to its peers, that is, other games.

Especially when most other 'popular' games have a story that basically comprises of "HYURR DURR KILL TERZRORITZ!!!"

Well switched to Fantasy Adventure in the mid 70s.Heinlein use to be a favorite as far sci fi.What I saw was space magic.Problems I saw were first pre release hype.Never say something your not going to deliver.Internet has a long memory.Second if you are going to throw that aside you best have something put out that makes folks go ooohhh.I don't think it was just poor execution.It seemed just thrown out there.A sort of good enough.Considering it was the ending of a trilogy there should of been a wow factor.I didn't see it.More of a fizzle.There were other things that were really lacking from start to finish.Kudos on Quarian/Geth and Turian/Krogan quest.They were awesome.

[Calbeb]

daftPirate wrote...

I see. I just assumed such a passionate response came as a result of the anticipation for the conlcusion to the trilogy. In my opinion, though, many of these issues are based on expectations and are, at least in part, subjective. The game was certainly shorter than previous instalments, but not by much (ME2 and ME3 without DLC don't have much time difference). On that point, not an issue for me, I had no expectations for the game's length, and found ME3 involving despite being shorter (right now). Replayability I'd say is the sum of any and all issues with a game. The more pros and fewer cons you have with it, the more replayable.

The journal was indeed, weak and barely functional, but it really didn't need to do much anyway, and it's far from game breaking. By sidequests do you mean the fetch quests or things like grissom and the N7 missions? In another conversation someone compared the fetch quests to ME2's resource gathering, which I thought was fitting, and I felt that ME3's resource gathering tied in much better with the setting the way it used cultural relics, refugees and the war effort, and reconnecting with old squad mates in the side missions was fun (though I was disappointed with length and involvement of some, like Kasumi, and Zaeed, their general influence on the game was cool).

The face import was, again, not much more than a small setback. Faces aren't hard to reconstruct, and its already been announced that the issue will be fixed in the first patch.

I guess what this comes down to is: did you feel the same way about Skyrim? I noticed you haven't mentioned it in any of your posts. It's not really a sequel with an immediate lore to uphold, but how were its issues at release less game breaking?

I'm a big Bethedsa fan, but I had a lot of issues with Skyrim. I think with their type of open-world RPGS, it's really easy to forgive a LOT of flaws, just because the way all of the systems interact can be really fascinating. I got every achievement in Skyrim, and honestly a lot of that experience wasn't as much fun for me as I wish it had been.

With that said, it does seem like a lot of the vehement reaction comes from fan expectations, as you said, for the ending. More than that though, there is also the element of investment fans had with this series. The Mass Effect games (including i would argue, this one) do so much right from a narrative and character standpoint that when it misses, and does so at such a crucial junction, people felt especially passionate about it. It actually is kind of a compliment to what bioware did, as much as it sucks for them right now.

[SkyPlus]

Skyrim is soooo boring. Oblivion > Skyrim

[Lee T]

Apples and oranges. I like both what Bioware and Bethesda do. The things I like and I don't like in ME3 are not in any way related in what I like and don't like in Skyrim, they are related to what I expect from a Bioware game.

I'm glad we have different minded studios making different minded RPGs across the world.

[Thorwind]

A comparison between the two of them can not be made, it's like comparing oranges with lemons, they both contain citric acid but they don't quite taste the same, now do they.
Skyrim has it's pleasures and strengths but I wouldn't call it a great game, the story and quests are plain boring, the game is for exploration, freedom and customization not story telling.

ME series is story oriented and it is great at that chapter, even ME3 with it's crappy ending is well above Skyrim in story and magnitude, and let's admit it maybe ME1 fell in the RPG cathegory but ME3 is far from an RPG, it would be more fair to classify it as an action shooter with RPG elements and a great story.

Both games are good at what they do but their not great let alone masterpieces and incomparable both in genre and scope.

In my opinion KOTOR almost was a masterpiece (but failed short), NWN1 and Baldur's Gate were wonderful, NWN2 was ''ok'', MOTB a masterpiece (even if an expansion)...with these games should ME be compared.

Also while we're on this topic, Bethesda was never capable of releasing a game without game-braking bugs from day 1, that's just lame, on the other hand, BW even with their questionable marketing strategies will never release a game that messes with your nerves on that level.



Skyrim was pure madness at bugs and they still aren't capable of fixing them, I know because I bought the game from day 1, that game is a mess although I do admit I'll be returning to it shortly after I'm let down by the PAX thing on Friday, I need a break from ME for a while.

EDIT: typo

Modifié par Thorwind, 03 avril 2012 - 09:25 .

[abaris]

Thorwind wrote...

Skyrim has it's pleasures and strengths but I wouldn't call it a great game, the story and quests are plain boring, the game is for exploration, freedom and customization not story telling.

The Elder Scroll series always lived on it's modding community. The vanilla experience never was that great. The greatness with every Bethesda game lies in their modabilty.

[Thorwind]

abaris wrote...

Thorwind wrote...

Skyrim has it's pleasures and strengths but I wouldn't call it a great game, the story and quests are plain boring, the game is for exploration, freedom and customization not story telling.

The Elder Scroll series always lived on it's modding community. The vanilla experience never was that great. The greatness with every Bethesda game lies in their modabilty.

Quite right, I agree.

[VolusvsReaper]

Why do people compare x game to Skyrim? Skyrim is overrated and not that good to begin with it didn't refine or showcase the RPG genre its just a mediocre sandbox with a ton of glitches and repetitive combat...

[Chromie]

Thorwind wrote...
Skyrim has it's pleasures and strengths but I wouldn't call it a great game, the story and quests are plain boring, the game is for exploration, freedom and customization not story telling.

Man I cannot wait for Wasteland 2. A sandbox game with excellent writing especially if it recieves enough donations to bring in Obsidian. It's almost like bringing back Black Isle.

[Thorwind]

Skelter192 wrote...

Thorwind wrote...
Skyrim has it's pleasures and strengths but I wouldn't call it a great game, the story and quests are plain boring, the game is for exploration, freedom and customization not story telling.

Man I cannot wait for Wasteland 2. A sandbox game with excellent writing especially if it recieves enough donations to bring in Obsidian. It's almost like bringing back Black Isle.

Now that is a game worth the wait, i am curious to see what they do with it. I heard they managed to gather the money they needed for making it. We'll wait and see

Also Baldurs Gate remastered, I'm curious as hell to see the final product.

Modifié par Thorwind, 03 avril 2012 - 09:35 .

[Chromie]

Thorwind wrote...

Skelter192 wrote...

Thorwind wrote...
Skyrim has it's pleasures and strengths but I wouldn't call it a great game, the story and quests are plain boring, the game is for exploration, freedom and customization not story telling.

Man I cannot wait for Wasteland 2. A sandbox game with excellent writing especially if it recieves enough donations to bring in Obsidian. It's almost like bringing back Black Isle.

Now that is a game worth the wait, i am curious to see what they do with it. I heard they managed to gather the money they needed for making it. We'll wait and see

Also Baldurs Gate remastered, I'm curious as hell to see the final product.

Actually they raised 1.9 million so far! At 2.1 million Fargo said they'll be able to hire on Obsidian and Obsidian will ONLY work on design and writing so guys no need to worry on bugs well from Obsidian anyways (even though QA is handled by publishers) I had to donate to them at least enough to get in on the beta.

http://www.kickstart...ile/wasteland-2

i can't wait for Baldur's Gate this summer especially since Overhaul Games are interested in remastering Planescape:Torment.


Sorry for highjacking this thread!

Umm Skyrim is great for what it is. An open world RPG with emphasis on exploration and MY character. Quest and plot are secondary imo but you do learn a great deal by reading the books, scrolls and letters of the world you learn alot.

I have never been a fan of Elder Scrolls but a friend bought Skyrim for me on Steam and I admit I definitely do enjoy it especially since Bethesda is doing a great job incorpating Steam more into the game with the workshop. I really didn't care for Oblivion and I HATE Fallout 3 it doesn't deserve the name.

Now if Bioware wanted to do an open world sandbox game set in the Mass Effect universe I would certainly be happy. Imagine exploring the galaxy with your crew your ship and total freedom.

Modifié par Skelter192, 03 avril 2012 - 09:43 .

[Thorwind]

Skelter192 wrote...

Thorwind wrote...

Skelter192 wrote...

Thorwind wrote...
Skyrim has it's pleasures and strengths but I wouldn't call it a great game, the story and quests are plain boring, the game is for exploration, freedom and customization not story telling.

Man I cannot wait for Wasteland 2. A sandbox game with excellent writing especially if it recieves enough donations to bring in Obsidian. It's almost like bringing back Black Isle.

Now that is a game worth the wait, i am curious to see what they do with it. I heard they managed to gather the money they needed for making it. We'll wait and see



Also Baldurs Gate remastered, I'm curious as hell to see the final product.

Actually they raised 1.9 million so far! At 2.1 million Fargo said they'll be able to hire on Obsidian and Obsidian will ONLY work on design and writing so guys no need to worry on bugs well from Obsidian anyways (even though QA is handled by publishers) I had to donate to them at least enough to get in on the beta.

http://www.kickstart...ile/wasteland-2

i can't wait for Baldur's Gate this summer especially since Overhaul Games are interested in remastering Planescape:Torment.

huba huba, I forgot about Planetscape, I'll happy as a teenager when they get all out on the market, i might need to make a list for family, GF and work to cope with the lack of time while playing the games

ok, that's quite enough offtopic for me

Modifié par Thorwind, 03 avril 2012 - 09:45 .

[Hogge87]

Two years would have forced BW to release the game on the Xbox 3 and Wii U, at which point they'd have to redo all the graphics and missions to not be considered ancient.

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Nadya2 wrote...

ME1= one of the best RPG   is actually bioware masterpiece.   ME2=  great game

ME3=  the game that ruined the whole franchise and made playing the above titles irrelevant.

Well I dont consider any of the Mass Effect games masterpieces though I do think ME2 and ME3 were great games, ME1 on the other hand I have trouble saying that it was better than even DA2, I find it quite funny when those who give ME1 such high praise badmouth DA2 as both games suffer from the exact same problems.

Nadya2 wrote...

skyrim has a very high replayability value

Everyone keeps saying this yet the whole sentence strikes me as false, where is all this "Replay Value" Skyrim has? Racial choice makes little difference to anything and everything can be completed on one character, the only real choice you ever get to make is to either do a quest or not do it.

kalle90 wrote...

Skyrim is better simply when standing on some mountain or anywhere and looking at how day turns into night turns into day.

That is art, joy to look at. Not any of the clunky small areas or disconnecting conversations of ME3. No Skyrim isn't perfect either, especially as a pure RPG, but it's close.

Art is more than just pretty visuals, art is also about evoking emotion, it is the product of somebodies creative skill and imagination. It pains me whenever I hear somebody say that video games arent art, sure in a genre dominated by games like Call of Duty and Halo we may not have seen our magnum opus yet but given the ability of video games to engage the player on a much deeper level video games have the potential to be one of the more powerful forms of art.

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Nadya2 wrote...

0 exploration (this is something i loved doing in ME1)

Dont oversell the exploration aspect of ME1, unless of course you consider driving across baren featureless planets "brilliant exploration". The fact of the matter is the actual missions of ME1 really diddnt have much more freedom to explore than the missions in the last to games, Eden Prime = Linear, Liara's Dig Site = Linear, Feros (the actual mission part that is) = Linear, Sure Noveria had a fork in the road (shoot your way in or get the key card by doing a fetch quest) but for the most part it was linear, hyperbole doesnt make a game great and hyperbole certainly doesnt make ME1 better than the other games in the series. You say the side missions in 3 were crap but did you actually play the side missions in ME3? Do you really think that the same copy and pasted 4 interiors really make for better side quests than ME3?