423 réponses à ce sujet

[fafnir magnus]

Zolt51 wrote...

That: Mass relay destruction = nova argument is a bit tired IMO. If Bioware wanted to imply that you've just killed everyone in every system they would have said so outright.

There's a lot of different ways for the same object to explode. You can blow the radiator on your car or you can blow up the fuel tank. In nuclear terms, you can have Chernobyl, Fukushima, or Three Mile island. Same basic setup, vastly different consequences and Chernobyl isn't even the worst you can get.

they did say you killed everyone.  Codex in the same game says the you can't destroy the relays as a tactical decision because even a ruptured (not destroyed, vaporized, asteroid-smashed relay, but a RUPTURED relay) will release enough energy to devastate all terrestrial planets in the system.  It is explicitly stated in the game.  This is not fro the ME 2 codex, it is in the ME 3 codex.

[B3ckett]

How to rebuild them if your transportation ability is crippled?

But, the main problem, IMHO, is not about the mass relays being destroyed and relay journeys made impossible. It's about the overwhelming destruction. The whole galaxy gets blown up more or less.

Instead of sending a SIGNAL to disable reapers/synthetics, they send a energy bomb. That's just plain dumb, because it's something the Starchild decided for us.

[likta_]

Zolt51 wrote...

That: Mass relay destruction = nova argument is a bit tired IMO. If Bioware wanted to imply that you've just killed everyone in every system they would have said so outright.

There's a lot of different ways for the same object to explode. You can blow the radiator on your car or you can blow up the fuel tank. In nuclear terms, you can have Chernobyl, Fukushima, or Three Mile island. Same basic setup, vastly different consequences and Chernobyl isn't even the worst you can get.

If they wanted us to not think we killed everybody, because this time it is different than established, they would have said so outright.

[maia0407]

[/quote]

Rebuild the infrastructure.

- Diseases? C'mon are you serious? How is that suddenly going to be an issue? Did they lose all their medical advances suddenly too? Were those advances somehow tied to the relays? No.

- Starvation? Plant some stuff & eat it. 

- War? Possibly, but you don't cry over POTENTIAL war when the alternative is death.

[/quote]

The survivors will need that destroyed infrastructure to feed the massive population of soldiers oribiting earth as well as the survivors on earth. Feeding a population that size is not as simple as just planting food and harvesting it. To produce food on a large scale you need that destroyed infrastructure in place. To rebuld the infrastructure you need food for the people rebuilding it. Food reserves are probably destroyed due to the war, not much of the land is usable and even with gardening a small amount of food the old fashioned way it will take time to see a harvest. See the problem? Millions will starve.

Regarding disease, starvation weakens the immune system. I'm sure they will also have problems getting clean water which will also lead to disease. Medical supplies are limited and the war has probably diminished any reserves on hand. Once again, we are back to the problem of having the infrastructure in place to produce more medicine. People will die. In fact, most people will probably die. The ending as presented leaves the survivors with a very bleak future.

Modifié par maia0407, 03 avril 2012 - 08:25 .

[Witty_Innuendo]

For those who need a quick guide, OP's logic is as follows.

Food = Why can't they just plant it anywhere? Why don't we grow rice in deserts or wheat on Everest for snackies? Why can't we just put a tap on the moon and plant crops there? Your arguments are invalid!

Technology = Someone made it, therefore we can! What... you need materials, huge amounts of eezo, existing knowledge of how exactly the mass relays work? But... they were built before! Why can't tribes in the amazon build planes and fly out of the jungle! Your arguments are invalid!

Modifié par Witty_Innuendo, 03 avril 2012 - 08:24 .

[cpolsonb]

I couldn't care less about whether the scattered survivors of the galaxy could survive through farming or not, it's the fact that the universe that we lived in and were fighting to save has ceased to exist.

[Harbinger of your Destiny]

Funkdrspot wrote...

fafnir magnus wrote...

Why would they pack seeds for what is widely considered a last-ditch suicide mission? Turians have no history of needing long-term sustenance on interstellar missions, and Quarians only brought the heavy fleet, not the life ships of the civilian fleet. Even then, earth in any ending has suffered serious ecological damage. If you have any experience in environmental studies you'll know that introducing entirely new species into an unfamiliar ecosystem can have disastrous consequences. This danger is magnified by introducing MANY different new species.

You're overthinking a simple issue.

1. Turians are military first and military always considers all options, like being stranded. How you would think that they'd not stock months/years of food rations is beyond me.

2. Enviro studies? The only thing that matters is survival. Things might get tough, some people might die but with their level of technology it would be easy to sustain life.

I don't think they or anyone else thought the Mass Relays where going to blow up because of the crucible ( I sure as hell didn't)

[Funkdrspot]

cutegigi wrote...

fafnir magnus wrote...

Why would they pack seeds for what is widely considered a last-ditch suicide mission? Turians have no history of needing long-term sustenance on interstellar missions, and Quarians only brought the heavy fleet, not the life ships of the civilian fleet. Even then, earth in any ending has suffered serious ecological damage. If you have any experience in environmental studies you'll know that introducing entirely new species into an unfamiliar ecosystem can have disastrous consequences. This danger is magnified by introducing MANY different new species.

I wonder if OP thought US army bring potatoes seed to iraq or afghanistan.... just so that you know, in case supply route get compromized, just plat those damn potatoes. 

So the US army DOESN'T stock months of extra rations despite being maybe 1 day away by plane? Your own logic doesn't compute.

[cutegigi]

Funkdrspot wrote...

cutegigi wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

Again, all of this can be rebuilt. It provides a way for tech to deviate from what the reapers want

so.. it can be rebuild for sure because...... you say it can ??

In one form or another I don't see why not. SOMEONE had to build it so that means you can make it again.

The Protheans made a mini-relay on IIos so why another one couldn't be made is beyond me. Probably just your defeatist attitude.

alrite. You can continue to rely solely on your head canon while ignoring established lore and call it optimistic attitude.

[Funkdrspot]

Witty_Innuendo wrote...

For those who need a quick guide, OP's logic is as follows.

Food = Why can't they just plant it anywhere? Why don't we grow rice in deserts or wheat on Everest for snackies? Why can't we just put a tap on the moon and plant crops there? Your arguments are invalid!

Technology = Someone made it, therefore we can! What... you need materials, huge amounts of eezo, existing knowledge of how exactly the mass relays work? But... they were built before! Why can't tribes in the amazon build planes and fly out of the jungle! Your arguments are invalid!

Your entire argument seems to be built on a hasty generalization logical fallacy. Go try again.

[Witty_Innuendo]

Funkdrspot wrote...

cutegigi wrote...

fafnir magnus wrote...

Why would they pack seeds for what is widely considered a last-ditch suicide mission? Turians have no history of needing long-term sustenance on interstellar missions, and Quarians only brought the heavy fleet, not the life ships of the civilian fleet. Even then, earth in any ending has suffered serious ecological damage. If you have any experience in environmental studies you'll know that introducing entirely new species into an unfamiliar ecosystem can have disastrous consequences. This danger is magnified by introducing MANY different new species.

I wonder if OP thought US army bring potatoes seed to iraq or afghanistan.... just so that you know, in case supply route get compromized, just plat those damn potatoes. 

So the US army DOESN'T stock months of extra rations despite being maybe 1 day away by plane? Your own logic doesn't compute.

Even if they stocked YEARS of rations... they'd run out and then die. Quarian and Turian plants wouldnt grow on earth regardless. Your own logic doesn't compute.

[cutegigi]

Funkdrspot wrote...

cutegigi wrote...

fafnir magnus wrote...

Why would they pack seeds for what is widely considered a last-ditch suicide mission? Turians have no history of needing long-term sustenance on interstellar missions, and Quarians only brought the heavy fleet, not the life ships of the civilian fleet. Even then, earth in any ending has suffered serious ecological damage. If you have any experience in environmental studies you'll know that introducing entirely new species into an unfamiliar ecosystem can have disastrous consequences. This danger is magnified by introducing MANY different new species.

I wonder if OP thought US army bring potatoes seed to iraq or afghanistan.... just so that you know, in case supply route get compromized, just plat those damn potatoes. 

So the US army DOESN'T stock months of extra rations despite being maybe 1 day away by plane? Your own logic doesn't compute.

seed is diffrent from ration you know. 

[Funkdrspot]

cutegigi wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

cutegigi wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

Again, all of this can be rebuilt. It provides a way for tech to deviate from what the reapers want

so.. it can be rebuild for sure because...... you say it can ??

In one form or another I don't see why not. SOMEONE had to build it so that means you can make it again.

The Protheans made a mini-relay on IIos so why another one couldn't be made is beyond me. Probably just your defeatist attitude.

alrite. You can continue to rely solely on your head canon while ignoring established lore and call it optimistic attitude.

What lore did i ignore? Point to it.

[likta_]

Funkdrspot wrote...

cutegigi wrote...

fafnir magnus wrote...

Why would they pack seeds for what is widely considered a last-ditch suicide mission? Turians have no history of needing long-term sustenance on interstellar missions, and Quarians only brought the heavy fleet, not the life ships of the civilian fleet. Even then, earth in any ending has suffered serious ecological damage. If you have any experience in environmental studies you'll know that introducing entirely new species into an unfamiliar ecosystem can have disastrous consequences. This danger is magnified by introducing MANY different new species.

I wonder if OP thought US army bring potatoes seed to iraq or afghanistan.... just so that you know, in case supply route get compromized, just plat those damn potatoes. 

So the US army DOESN'T stock months of extra rations despite being maybe 1 day away by plane? Your own logic doesn't compute.

Why would they? Even IF supply chains get cut, stuff in Afghanistan is edible, you know. Its not just poison and deserts over there.

[Witty_Innuendo]

Funkdrspot wrote...

Witty_Innuendo wrote...

For those who need a quick guide, OP's logic is as follows.

Food = Why can't they just plant it anywhere? Why don't we grow rice in deserts or wheat on Everest for snackies? Why can't we just put a tap on the moon and plant crops there? Your arguments are invalid!

Technology = Someone made it, therefore we can! What... you need materials, huge amounts of eezo, existing knowledge of how exactly the mass relays work? But... they were built before! Why can't tribes in the amazon build planes and fly out of the jungle! Your arguments are invalid!

Your entire argument seems to be built on a hasty generalization logical fallacy. Go try again.

I don't have an argument... I'm merely pointing out yours. Any resemblance of generalized logical fallacies is purely coincidental.

[fafnir magnus]

1. military does not consider all options. The army posted in Iraq and Afghanistan does not grow its own food, they eat specially prepared MREs. Your military argument is self defeating. anyone who claims the military prepares for all eventualities all the time is woefully naive, because if this were the case those planes would have been shot down before they impacted the twin towers on 9/11.

2. the only way you survive, even if you get those foods, is you have to find 1) arable land to plant it on, 2) have sufficient time for it to grow and be harvested before you run out of actual food, and 3) have enough seed left over to plant a second harvest. Even then, I have never seen a turian female in their military, so I don't see how they're going to reproduce past their current generation. Quarians have to rigorously care for their immune systems with medical supplies, supplies which will be in short supply and not indefinite. suit ruptures, blah blah..

[Funkdrspot]

cutegigi wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

cutegigi wrote...

fafnir magnus wrote...

Why would they pack seeds for what is widely considered a last-ditch suicide mission? Turians have no history of needing long-term sustenance on interstellar missions, and Quarians only brought the heavy fleet, not the life ships of the civilian fleet. Even then, earth in any ending has suffered serious ecological damage. If you have any experience in environmental studies you'll know that introducing entirely new species into an unfamiliar ecosystem can have disastrous consequences. This danger is magnified by introducing MANY different new species.

I wonder if OP thought US army bring potatoes seed to iraq or afghanistan.... just so that you know, in case supply route get compromized, just plat those damn potatoes. 

So the US army DOESN'T stock months of extra rations despite being maybe 1 day away by plane? Your own logic doesn't compute.

seed is diffrent from ration you know. 

So you're seriously going to tell me that in ALL those fleets, many of which probably have mini-hydroponics, that NONE of them have ANY type of plantable food?

[sedrikhcain]

Funkdrspot wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

The problem isn't what they'll be able to eat, the problem is not being able to travel between systems without spending your whole life doing it, if you can do it at all. Galactic community is no longer possible. Trade, intermingled culture, galactic politics -- it's all out the window.

First world problems my omni-tool. Destroying the relays plunges turns the whole galaxy into a relative third world. Isolated and unknowable.

Still a 1st world problem. You just beat a cycle of genocide spanning back a billion years and you're crying over a loss of travel?! 

Too many of you guys don't know how to prioritize. Survival first, the rest of what you mentioned isn't even on the radar.

You're missing the point. Of course, we're interested in survival. The question is, from a storytelling standpoint, why this had to be the solution. Now, that's just one problem with the ending and could be argued it's definitely not the biggest, but it's a question that should be raised. If the argument is that surviving without any of the tech we don't understand is actually an advancement, then so be it but this creates real tension between the justifications of the characters and the expectations of the players that the fictional world they've become invested in continue in something similar to its current state.

That's not a condemnation. I'm just saying BioWare created for themselves a situation where they upset a lot of people because they didn't spend the time in-game reconciling this conflict and easing this tension -- assuming I'm taking from it what was intended. If they had, we'd all feel a sense of completion, rather than a sense of having somebody pull the rug out from under us at the end.

[Funkdrspot]

fafnir magnus wrote...

1. military does not consider all options. The army posted in Iraq and Afghanistan does not grow its own food, they eat specially prepared MREs. Your military argument is self defeating. anyone who claims the military prepares for all eventualities all the time is woefully naive, because if this were the case those planes would have been shot down before they impacted the twin towers on 9/11.

There you go again overthinking the issue and deviating from the point. How military preparedness for basic needs somehow got mixed in with your idea that they have ESP is beyond me.

fafnir magnus wrote...2. the only way you survive, even if you get those foods, is you have to find 1) arable land to plant it on, 2) have sufficient time for it to grow and be harvested before you run out of actual food, and 3) have enough seed left over to plant a second harvest. Even then, I have never seen a turian female in their military, so I don't see how they're going to reproduce past their current generation. Quarians have to rigorously care for their immune systems with medical supplies, supplies which will be in short supply and not indefinite. suit ruptures, blah blah..

Nothing you just mentioned says to me everyone is going to die or even a majority. You're just listing off minor issues.

[count_4]

Funkdrspot wrote...
Did i miss something or are people in Mass Effect times somehow completely helpless and totally unable to hunt/farm? It sounds like a FTL-extension of '1st world problems'. I just don't get the idea of complaining about transportation difficulties when the alternative is galaxy wide genocide.

U mad?

Transportation difficulties(which is quite the understatement given that reaching anything beyond the own solar system within a timely manner just became impossible) in a galaxy that heavily depends on Mass Relay transportation for supplies (and pretty much everything else) is galaxy wide genocide.

So yeah, you did miss something.

[cutegigi]

Funkdrspot wrote...

What lore did i ignore? Point to it.

like no one in this current cycle know how to built a relay for starter.

[Billabong2011]

@Funkdrspot... is there a reason you've replied to everyone else but me?

[Dominator24]

Warden130 wrote...

The Crucible destroying a Mass relay is differant than slamming an asteroid into one (which was the Alpha Relay as well). Just think people! Don't yell plot hole at every little thing cause the endings were bad.

Mass Relay didn't blow up because asteroid hit it, it blow up because it was destroyed, the means are irrelevant here and the energy form inside the relay makes the damage . Destroy Relay= Supernova, that's what arrival told us.

[fafnir magnus]

How is the inability to reproduce a minor issue? you do realize that's a cause for extinction, right?

If you can't grow food before you run out of your rations, you starve.

If you can't plant a second harvest, once the first harvest runs out, you starve.

You seem to imply the military has ESP since they all must have brought seeds to help them settle on a new world when they foresaw the destruction of the relay network. You're the one who seems to attribute psychic preparations here, I simply demonstrated they didn't have ESP. reading comprehension fail.

[sedrikhcain]

cpolsonb wrote...

I couldn't care less about whether the scattered survivors of the galaxy could survive through farming or not, it's the fact that the universe that we lived in and were fighting to save has ceased to exist.

Exactly. And the reason you feel that way is because they didn't develop the theme of breaking the cycle by ending the dependence on tech we don't understand well enought to make you feel that by doing so they brough the story to its resolution. So there is a disconnect between what you thought you were trying to resolve and what they tried to resolve with their ending.

That's one big reason why the ending has failed in so many people's eyes.