423 réponses à ce sujet

[Transgirlgamer]

To the point about the relay exploding causing it to go nova with the release of the energy built up. What if that energy was released by, for example, sending a signal throughout the network a moment before they were destroyed. I figure the starchild just included a 'release all energy before self destruction' section in the code or something. Or maybe when they were built originally, the species that was clever enough to design and build them were also clever enough to give a way that they didn't wipe out an entire system in the case of them being shut down.

The difference between arrival and the ME3 end in this respect is, as far as I can see, the difference between setting off a nuclear weapon and shutting it down safely.

[Joccaren]

Funkdrspot wrote...

Joccaren wrote...2. In Destroy or Synthesis, all life on Earth is f***ed. Before you go 'Not all life, some will survive!' you are being extremely optimistic there.
What happened:
-Majority of infrustructure destroyed by orbital bombardment by Both Sword Fleet and Reapers
-A lot of 'farming land' turned into infrustructure that was destroyed, or that is flat out destroyed by the Reapers.

all of that can be rebuilt but especially with the tech they have it would be effortless.

What technology? Military ships? I'm sorry, but no. That technology takes time to build too, and resources - resources that they don't have. Its like saying if you had 200 tanks and were in the middle of the Sahara desert you could make a power station, house and mechanics labrotory, and then use that to make a Hercules transport and fly home. Sadly, it doesn't work that way. Even if you could manage to do it, the problems you faced in the meantime would likely be the end of you. I.E: Your fellow surivors killing you because they want food rations to last longer.

When you guys are thinking about the damage a chunk of the citadel falling to earth would do, you're thinking about asteroid-type impact, but the citadel wouldn't be speeding towards earth.
A chunk of the citadel falling to earth wouldn't cause anything close to that nuclear winter you're talking about.

Maybe i didn't read up on a part about the citadel compared to the moon but it looks NOTHING close to 1/4th the size of the moon. More like 1/10th.

Lastly, when I see the citadel explode, it doesn't seem that it's going anywhere. It seems to be staying in earth's orbit.

www.youtube.com/watch

Looks tell you nothing.
However, note two things:
"Every Action has an equal and opposite reaction"
and
"Gravity"

They are your arguments here. The explosion of the Citadel would have knocked it back towards Earth - and gravity would do the rest even if it hadn't. Gravity would pull the Citadel towards Earth - and accelerate it as it did so, so it actually WOULD reach Asteroid impact speed, and cause an impact that would be like the extinction of the dinosaurs on a larger scale. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that asteroid wasn't even 1/10th of the moons size, yet it covered the world in ash and dust for months s well as wiping out a lot of Earth's life at the time.

[Raptr569]

I suspect that Bioware will say that it's a different type of energy or something like that when the relays explode.

Rebuilding the mass relays may not be such a big task.

Remember the FTL comms buoys in most of the galaxy still operate meaning that the races can still work together on the science behinds the relays so if one potentially cracks it then they can communicate how to construct new ones.

[Funkdrspot]

Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...

D.I.Y_Death wrote...

Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

iorveth1271 wrote...

I think you missed the fact that there will be no farming and hunting when there's no worlds to hunt or farm, let alone live on. Mass Relay destructions, according to Arrival, lead to Supernovas, the energy used to destroy the relay doesn't matter there. I dunno why everyone believes people in the Sol system will starve. The way I see it they would most likely just get pulverized.

To everyone responding the same way, I've already answered this in what I see as logical.

Slam an asteroid to a mass relay = solar system explosion

Crucible energy beam = same energy released but to ALL solar systems within that cluster 



It's like lighting a drop of gas on the ground vs in your cylinder.

Sorry but all that is is :lol:SPECULATION:lol:

All we know for certain and from previous history is that when you blow up a Relay the relay goes Nova.

So is your point of view, it's speculation that an asteroid colliding with a mass relay will interact the same was the crucible will with mass relays.
Point being this is all up for debate, don't act like your subjectiveness is the only opinion.

No we know that destroying a relay releases all the energy pent up inside of it at once. It doesn't matter how it was released (ie asteroid/ citadel wave) all that matters is the field containing the energy is gone. That energy has to go somewhere and even if some of it does travel across the relay network the rest still spreads out from the relay, and a little supernova is still not something you want to be in the neighborhood in.

As I stated before,the amount of energy released is the same but the radius is substantially increased, so the focus is reduced.

If a relay gets hit with an asteroid, the whole solar system gets fried. If the crucible is used, each relay bathes the whole STAR CLUSTER ( read = 10s to 100s of solar systems ) in the 'radiation'.

If you did a good job of putting the crucible together, the radiation is focused to the reapers. If not, earth is an example of what likely happens around the galaxy.

[Harbinger of your Destiny]

Funkdrspot wrote...

Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...

D.I.Y_Death wrote...

Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

iorveth1271 wrote...

I think you missed the fact that there will be no farming and hunting when there's no worlds to hunt or farm, let alone live on. Mass Relay destructions, according to Arrival, lead to Supernovas, the energy used to destroy the relay doesn't matter there. I dunno why everyone believes people in the Sol system will starve. The way I see it they would most likely just get pulverized.

To everyone responding the same way, I've already answered this in what I see as logical.

Slam an asteroid to a mass relay = solar system explosion

Crucible energy beam = same energy released but to ALL solar systems within that cluster 



It's like lighting a drop of gas on the ground vs in your cylinder.

Sorry but all that is is :lol:SPECULATION:lol:

All we know for certain and from previous history is that when you blow up a Relay the relay goes Nova.

So is your point of view, it's speculation that an asteroid colliding with a mass relay will interact the same was the crucible will with mass relays.
Point being this is all up for debate, don't act like your subjectiveness is the only opinion.

No we know that destroying a relay releases all the energy pent up inside of it at once. It doesn't matter how it was released (ie asteroid/ citadel wave) all that matters is the field containing the energy is gone. That energy has to go somewhere and even if some of it does travel across the relay network the rest still spreads out from the relay, and a little supernova is still not something you want to be in the neighborhood in.

As I stated before,the amount of energy released is the same but the radius is substantially increased, so the focus is reduced.

If a relay gets hit with an asteroid, the whole solar system gets fried. If the crucible is used, each relay bathes the whole STAR CLUSTER ( read = 10s to 100s of solar systems ) in the 'radiation'.

If you did a good job of putting the crucible together, the radiation is focused to the reapers. If not, earth is an example of what likely happens around the galaxy.

Radiation is still radiation, more than likely the radiation that was created was Gamma Radiation and Gamma radiation is not very good for cells.

[Harbinger of your Destiny]

Raptr569 wrote...

I suspect that Bioware will say that it's a different type of energy or something like that when the relays explode.

Rebuilding the mass relays may not be such a big task.

Remember the FTL comms buoys in most of the galaxy still operate meaning that the races can still work together on the science behinds the relays so if one potentially cracks it then they can communicate how to construct new ones.

ftl comm buoys required the relays to work.

[Lukanp]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@OP:
Here are some reason why people are upset about it:

The relays blowing up fragments galactic civilization into isolated clusters of a few hundred ly radius at best, into isolated star systems at worst. Which means the ME universe as a fictional setting will be destroyed. Most of here have some connection to that universe, to the places, peoples and characters of the ME universe in their interconnectedness. Removing that is like destroying the fundament on which our imagination rests. If we want to imagine what happens after, we first need to rebuild the world.

The second aspect is that the destruction of the relays destroys all the closure achieved by playing the game to that point, because all we have achieved is suddenly open again. The results of all our decisions will be different because of it.

The third aspect is that we all set out to save galactic civilization from the Reapers. *This* galactic civilization, not some unknown one 10k years from now. That's what the story always was about. To see it end like this feels like a failure. It feels like Shepard died for nothing.

I agree with your post 100%. Destroying the Mass Relays would be reminiscent in scope to removing hypertravel or the Force from the Star Wars universe. It's a borderline lazy storytelling tool, which basically cuts all ties to previously established fictional material. It basically makes your decissions from the previous games redundant, but what's worse, we are denied the option to contiune fan fiction in the Mass Effect universe we know.

Modifié par Lukanp, 03 avril 2012 - 10:01 .

[count_4]

Funkdrspot wrote...

count_4 wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

count_4 wrote...
Ah, a troll after all. Shoud have known.

For what it's worth, though, you can't plant anything on Earth after the Reapers are gone. It's inhabitable thanks to (tens of) thounsand(s) of projectile impacts and a 44km Citadel crashing down. Good luck growing food in a nuclear winter(or whatever a nuclear winter is called if it isn't actually nuclear).

You guys are pretty bitter and pessimistic in this form. 1 joke makes me a troll now?

I like how you only reply to my troll statement and completely ignore the rest. 

LoL dood i'm trying. Some people have valid points but some want to completely nitpick every minute detail. Hard to respond to everyone.

Well, in that case I'll take the liberty to respond to you by clarifying what I meant.

Funkdrspot wrote...
A chunk of the citadel falling to earth wouldn't cause anything close to that nuclear winter you're talking about. 

The Citadel alone might not cause it(if it goes down a all) but the combined bombardment of Sword will. They are firing directly at Earth while closing in, almost every shot that misses a Reaper is a direct hit.
That means for every shot a dreadnought misses, there is an impact equal to two times Hiroshima down on Earth. Every single shot.
Now let's assume only 1% of the shots fired deviate enough to miss the Repaers but still hit Earth. I don't exactly know how many dreadnoughts are on site but estimations were about 100 iirc. Over the course of a battle merely half an hour in length, that would equal almost 1000 nuclear bombs worth of impact. And that's just the few dreadnoughts.
There are (tens of) thousands of smaller ships out there that have smaller ordnance than the major vessels but still large enough to pack on hell of a punch.

Earth is a post-apocalyptic wasteland in the middle of a nuclear winter once the fight is over. 

Modifié par count_4, 03 avril 2012 - 10:01 .

[FrozenDreamfall]

And THIS is why we hate the ending the most.I mean the godchild thing was ridiculous but I could've passed it if it wasn't for the damn relays.I kind of understand how they need to be destroyed since it's Reaper teach and their way of traveling but in the end if they explode you kill more than you save,what the hell justifies that?

[legion999]

Funkdrspot wrote...

Witty_Innuendo wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

No mass relays = no efficient interstellar travel = no galactic community.

the Milky Way as it's portrayed in ME could no longer exist. That game world we all loved and worked so hard to save? It's no longer possible.

1st world problems. Your options are to stop crying, rebuild the mass relays and rebuild civilization or galaxy wide genocide.

In a way, it FITS because the reapers made the citadel. They made the relays. They can be made again. Will trade and travel suffer? Sure but it beats being liquified into a McReaper McNugget.

And my question is how do you remake them in time? Surely by the time you figured out the technology, gathered enough resources to build it, and then build a connecting relay, you would have dies from mass starvation (Quarians and Turians on different diets), polution, etc.

All you're doing is massive amounts of assumption. How is mass starvation an issue when earth is right there? Do Quarians and Turians not have plants they can eat? 

Pollution might be a small problem but you act like it can't be figured out. It's not something that's going to cause serious deaths.

<facepalm> Earth is a ruin. Yo're not goimg to support much on it. And on Earth Turians and Quarians don't have plants to eat (nevermind the fact it has to be sterilised for Quarians).

[Funkdrspot]

Joccaren wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

Joccaren wrote...2. In Destroy or Synthesis, all life on Earth is f***ed. Before you go 'Not all life, some will survive!' you are being extremely optimistic there.
What happened:
-Majority of infrustructure destroyed by orbital bombardment by Both Sword Fleet and Reapers
-A lot of 'farming land' turned into infrustructure that was destroyed, or that is flat out destroyed by the Reapers.

all of that can be rebuilt but especially with the tech they have it would be effortless.

What technology? Military ships? I'm sorry, but no. That technology takes time to build too, and resources - resources that they don't have. Its like saying if you had 200 tanks and were in the middle of the Sahara desert you could make a power station, house and mechanics labrotory, and then use that to make a Hercules transport and fly home. Sadly, it doesn't work that way. Even if you could manage to do it, the problems you faced in the meantime would likely be the end of you. I.E: Your fellow surivors killing you because they want food rations to last longer.

When you guys are thinking about the damage a chunk of the citadel falling to earth would do, you're thinking about asteroid-type impact, but the citadel wouldn't be speeding towards earth.
A chunk of the citadel falling to earth wouldn't cause anything close to that nuclear winter you're talking about.

Maybe i didn't read up on a part about the citadel compared to the moon but it looks NOTHING close to 1/4th the size of the moon. More like 1/10th.

Lastly, when I see the citadel explode, it doesn't seem that it's going anywhere. It seems to be staying in earth's orbit.

www.youtube.com/watch

Looks tell you nothing.
However, note two things:
"Every Action has an equal and opposite reaction"
and
"Gravity"

They are your arguments here. The explosion of the Citadel would have knocked it back towards Earth - and gravity would do the rest even if it hadn't. Gravity would pull the Citadel towards Earth - and accelerate it as it did so, so it actually WOULD reach Asteroid impact speed, and cause an impact that would be like the extinction of the dinosaurs on a larger scale. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that asteroid wasn't even 1/10th of the moons size, yet it covered the world in ash and dust for months s well as wiping out a lot of Earth's life at the time.

That's an oversimplification of a complex issue, especially considering it's space. The explosion came from the center so if anything it would push the arms out in all directions. It would also matter at which angle it was sitting with the earth.

Also, in orbit gravity exists in a different form. To say that it just pulls downward is being too simplistic.  which is why we have so much space junk.

Lastly, no, the atmospheric entry to earth would be brief and would not carry nearly the same kinetic energy behind it that an asteroid would. Dropping to earth also would be eventually limited by terminal velocity whereas an asteroid is moving 25km per second. Think about that difference. Terminal velocity of, say, a person is 200km/h compared to that asteroid going at 90,000km/h

[SinerAthin]

The relays blowing up would quite simply exterminate nearly all life in the galaxy.

That's what I don't like about it.

[Wulfram]

Personally, I'm inclined to try to be positive. The ending is sad enough (and bad enough) without assuming the worst

1. I don't think that the Mass Relays blowing up destroys everything. It just doesn't seem the writers intent, and while it might be what you'd expect we don't have the information to say it absolutely would happen.

2. I don't think that the Reapers have been targetting farmland. They've been focussing on the cities - destroying the smaller, occupying the bigger. So I think most worlds will have a decent chance of feeding what population they've got left. Some colonies will starve though - if you settled there for mining and relied on food imports to keep you fed, you're basically dead.

3. Feeding people on wrong chirality worlds. Should be somewhat possible. Not through regular farming, through hydroponics and stuff like that. The Quarians should be experts in this, and may well have some capability built in even to their warships. If the Citadel is still there, then I'd imagine it may possess some amount of self sustaining capability, as well as supplies of food - particularly if, as would be logical, they were preparing for the possibility of a siege.

The Turian forces on Earth are still going to suffer badly, but at least some of them can survive. The Krogan on Palaven I find it very difficult to hold out much for though.

4. Interstellar travel is still possible, just far more limited and slow. 30 years to cross the galaxy, probably more once you have to stop for fuel. Still, the Asari and Krogan have the lifespan to make it back to their worlds and still have a decent life left ahead of them.

The Quarians have a very long trip ahead of them, but in truth I think they'd take this outcome for themselves if it was offered to them before the war started. They know their people have made it home, and a few more decades on their centuries long exile is a tolerable price for that.

5. I believe the mass relays will eventually be rediscovered. Miniature mass relays already seem to be possible to manufacture - the com network relies on them - the Protheans managed it, and Aethyta thought it was possible apparently. And while it'll be harder now, there'll also be a much stronger incentive to do it. Of course, seperated from the path laid out for them, some people in the galaxy may come up with a different way to make regular interstellar travel practical again.

Modifié par Wulfram, 03 avril 2012 - 10:30 .

[Reznore57]

If the relays didn't blow up supernova style , it's pretty impossible to tell what's going on.
But i don't agree everyone will die , i mean the worst might be earth.
The citadelle crashing + the victory fleet orbiting =it sucks for them
But for the others , it was just the beginning of the reaper war , and Prothean fought them for century.
Salarians are probably ok , krogan well they survived thru the genophage and their planet was already a wasteland , asari , even if thessia is lost they can reproduce with everybody.
The quariens , it depends on how many people they left on rannoch but they're pretty handy people who knows how to survive.Turian , they were holding the front on Palaven .
And there are colonies , some of them will survive , others won't.

I think it will be a dark age cause lots of people will die , some races gonna disappear ,batariens , hanar etc, and the evolution will take a step back .

I don't mind the end of the mass relay ,(well i hate the end , but i always thought the end of the reaper will have something to do with that).
But if Bioware wants to keep the end the way it is , we deserve some explanation on what's going on.
It's bittersweet if you can't save them all , but it's just pointless if you comdemn them all.

[Mobius-Silent]

count_4 wrote...

Pacellio2 wrote...
Well all the eezo cores are based on relay technology so therefore if you have something destroying the relays why wouldn't it effect them as well

Not defending OP here but the Relays aren't destroyed by the pulse but by sending out the pulse. This has no implications on other eezo tech.

One of the Catalyst lines that not everyone gets is that the mass relays will be destroyed "and most of the technology you rely upon"

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 03 avril 2012 - 10:29 .

[Joccaren]

Funkdrspot wrote...

As I stated before,the amount of energy released is the same but the radius is substantially increased, so the focus is reduced.

If a relay gets hit with an asteroid, the whole solar system gets fried. If the crucible is used, each relay bathes the whole STAR CLUSTER ( read = 10s to 100s of solar systems ) in the 'radiation'.

If you did a good job of putting the crucible together, the radiation is focused to the reapers. If not, earth is an example of what likely happens around the galaxy.

You don't get how this works do you?
Get a hose.
Turn it on.
Face it into your bathtub.
Now face it into your backyard.
In both cases, do not change the setting of the hose.
What is the difference in the energy released from the mouth of the hose? None. In both cases, the area around the mouth of the hose (Read: The system in which the Relay is situated) is completely saturated by water. Only the further outlying areas are less affected. Hose isn't the best analogy maybe, try a bomb. The same principle applies though: The entire system within which the explosion occurs is hit with masses of radiation. We have no reason to believe most of that radiation doesn't pass through that system, but instead teleports to other systems, bypassing the entry system entirely. Whilst the outer parts of the cluster will be fine, the system with the Relay is F***ed.

[cutegigi]

Transgirlgamer wrote...

The difference between arrival and the ME3 end in this respect is, as far as I can see, the difference between setting off a nuclear weapon and shutting it down safely.

im not aware of any method of BLOWING UP a nuclear weapon safely. please provide source if you can.
The relay was blown up. Shutting down the relay so that it would not result in explosion will indeed make more sense and believable.

[BobbyDylan]

Funkdrspot wrote...

[Lastly, no, the atmospheric entry to earth would be brief and would not carry nearly the same kinetic energy behind it that an asteroid would. Dropping to earth also would be eventually limited by terminal velocity whereas an asteroid is moving 25km per second. Think about that difference. Terminal velocity of, say, a person is 200km/h compared to that asteroid going at 90,000km/h

The Chicxulub asteroid /comet that is though to wiped out the dinosaurs was roughly 10km in diameter.

The Citadel is 45km long by 13km wide (open) and is made up of (indestructable) steel. I'm pretty sure that even one or 2 of the wards crashing into earth , along with the "missed shots" from sword fleet were enough to wipe out all life on the the planet.

Agreed this is specualation, but it's based on in game lore, and science. No on what I think the writers meant or his levels of sobriety when writing the conclusion.

[Joccaren]

Funkdrspot wrote...

That's an oversimplification of a complex issue, especially considering it's space. The explosion came from the center so if anything it would push the arms out in all directions. It would also matter at which angle it was sitting with the earth.

Also, in orbit gravity exists in a different form. To say that it just pulls downward is being too simplistic.  which is why we have so much space junk.

Lastly, no, the atmospheric entry to earth would be brief and would not carry nearly the same kinetic energy behind it that an asteroid would. Dropping to earth also would be eventually limited by terminal velocity whereas an asteroid is moving 25km per second. Think about that difference. Terminal velocity of, say, a person is 200km/h compared to that asteroid going at 90,000km/h

Ah yes, the debris moving in multiple directions. So instead of instantly crashing into Earth, most of it flies into parts of the Sword fleet instead, tearing it into shreds and killing millions, whilst it, as well as those destroyed parts of sword fleet, and the Reapers, enter into a decaying orbit of the Earth. Earth is now living on borrowed time, as the Citadel will eventually impact with it. I also doubt it will be moving at a mere 200Km/h. Most of the citadel is quite streamlined - even when in shreds. It would fall like a hot knife through butter through the Earth's atmosphere, and you can bet it would build up speed. Would it reach 90,000Km/h? Maybe not. Is it more massive than most Asteroids, and far more resistant to heat and thus less loss of Mass during Atmospheric re-entry? Yes. The impact of the Citadel, combined with the impacts from all the Ships in the Sword fleet that quite literally sent a wall of bullets at a fair speed towards Earth, Earth will be sent into a nuclear winter of sorts. Earth is not a sustainable place to live anymore, and won't be for some time. Most, if not all, of its food producing capabilities will be gone, most if not all of its infrustructure will be gone, and there are only 300,000,000 people left alive on Earth pre impacts, or so I'm told. That really paints quite a grim picture of the future.

[Lwyn]

So, using rough (and quick) high school equations with the following simplifications
-m=7.11*10^12 kg
-A=5*225*10^6 m^2 (wards falling on their sides, presidium ring not accounted for)
-rho=4507 kg/m^3 (density of titanium)
-c=0.82 (drag coeffiecient of a rectangle falling on its flat side)
would give us kinetic energy for the Citadel falling at terminal velocity
E=1.2*10^14 J (1.9 times the Little Boy nuke), would mean the Sword fleets bombardment is more devastating than the Citadel (far more)
I did so many simplifications in order to spur someone into making more detailed calculations, have at it.

Modifié par Lwyn, 03 avril 2012 - 10:55 .

[Militarized]

Simple answer = storyboard says no matter which ending you choose the crucible = a new galactic dark age.

galactic travel is impossible with their FTL lore in Mass Effect, says it at the beginning of ME1.

So everyone is stranded where they are except for really, really close systems. No one on Earth is going home. Most are probably going to die/dead. Tech is destroyed.

There is no rebuilding the Relays, no one knows how and now no one can study them.

Theres a bunch of issues.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

I'm completely fine with the concept of the relays blowing up. The idea itself is great. The execution however was beyond terrible.

[SimKoning]

It's because many, like myself, simply forgot that the ships in ME can travel 12 light years in a day. The people that know that, yet are still upset, seem to think that space travel that lasts more than a year is just crazy impossible, and so its the end of everything. In reality it will probably take over a year just to go to Mars in the future, and probably 50-60 years to go to the nearest star with a fusion rocket. People need to read books like Revelation Space or Forever War... I'm now actually glad they blew up the relays, because maybe people will finally get it through their heads that the galaxy is a big place, and it takes time to get around.

Modifié par SimKoning, 03 avril 2012 - 11:06 .

[Chuvvy]

Think about Mass Effect. What three things come to mind?

The Citadel
Shepard
The Mass Relays

Destroying the Mass Relays is like Lucas destroy Lightsabers or the Force. It's something so iconic, that the series isn't the same without them.

Sidenote, all three things I mentioned are gone at the end of ME3.

Modifié par Slidell505, 03 avril 2012 - 11:08 .