423 réponses à ce sujet

[SimKoning]

holysmite2 wrote...

I'm sorry if this was mentioned before but another problem with the relay destruction is complete isolation of colonies and thererore death of everyone who isnt able to grow their own food.
Omega- solid rock asteroid> everyone on it is dead
Feros- prothean ruin dust world> everyone on it is dead
Noveria- frozen planet> evrryone on it dead
pretty much every research station , mining facility ,space station or fuel station with any people on it.> dead

Or they get in their starships and travel to the nearest garden world. At most it will only take about a decade, which shouldn't be a problem since many ships seem to have cryo pods. Failing that, I don't see why they couldn't adjust their mass effect fields to allow for more time dilation. If they can do that, then a ten year trip might only take a week in ship time...

Modifié par SimKoning, 03 avril 2012 - 11:15 .

[cyric085]

even if the mass relay explosion does not destroy the entire sector they will just starve to death.

only ones that mays survive are the asari and maybe the krogan (well not so much since the krogan don't have femals at earth sector)

[SimKoning]

I find it interesting how all these space *colonies* are assumed to be devoid of biodomes... hell, it should be among the first things built on ANY colony situated on a hostile planet.

[Militarized]

SimKoning wrote...


Or they get in their starships and travel to the nearest garden world. At most it will only take about a decade, which shouldn't be a problem since many ships seem to have cryo pods. Failing that, I don't see why they couldn't adjust their mass effect fields to allow for more time dilation. If they can do that, then a ten year trip might only take a week in ship time...

You might want to think about how vast/empty space is. Gardens worlds are not a dime a dozen, and intragalactic travel is impossible with the FTL technology/lore in ME. ME1 specifically states galactic travel is -impossible- without the Relays. It is very black and white about that. 

The stargazer scene is also 10k years in the future and they don't have space flight yet, it's all a myth/story(which means no records? Technology lost?). 

Face it, they pushed the big "reset" button, that's what the adam and eve reference planet is for... setting everything back. It's a ridiculous plot device but it is what it is. 

[AkeasharK]

FTL Travel - The reapers FTL drives were fine. Find a way to reverse engineer them. This is assuming that you went Destruction. If you went Control... Hell you've still got the reapers, and can use them for transport. Remember, the reapers went 'They're in Dark Space in the middle of nowhere' to 'Inside Batarian space' in a matter of months after activation at the end of ME2.

Farmland - Major Coats and Anderson both state that the reapers were focussing entirely on population centres so getting out of them into the wilderness allowed them to engage in guerilla tactics. Wilderness = potential farmland (as any fan of British Sci Fi knows)

Chirality - If the Quarians had their Liveships (which I assume they would since they were bringing their whole fleet to the party) then they have the ability to feed the suddenly depleted Turian and Quarian species, and possibly help set up other gardening stations.

Oops I Hit the Earth! - Theres a certain space sergeant thats going to be lecturing people on who the deadliest sommabatch in space is, and why you make sure your shots hit! :3

Krogans on Palaven - Krogans can survive on anything. Like Turians.

But it says/doesn't say in the Codex - For the last time. Stop believing everything the Codex tells you. >< We've had lies and disinformation in the Codex before because its written from an IC standpoint. Case in point - Sovereign being a Geth Ship in ME2, Harbinger being a superimportant reaper rather than just y'know, a Harbinger in ME3. They're all assumptions made by people in-universe.

But Where's the Kaboom? - Discharge and Destruction. The energy is being discharged from the Relay, first in the pulse being continued to connected relays, and second in the 'resonant wave' throughout each sector before the relay itself explodes. The explosion of the relays (to me) seems more of a conventional explosion than the worlds shattering kaboom in Arrival. As for the pulses being different colours... c'mon, do you know how much more complaining there'd be if the wave was the same colour in all the variants of the endings? There'd be even more complaining about reused CG between them than there already is

Modifié par AkeasharK, 03 avril 2012 - 11:23 .

[Joccaren]

SimKoning wrote...

I find it interesting how all these space *colonies* are assumed to be devoid of biodomes... hell, it should be among the first things built on ANY colony situated on a hostile planet.

I love how all cities on Earth are assumed to be free from farms, its the first thing you'd build in the middle of a City. Oh wait...
Things changed. Most colonies rely on other colonies as a source of fuel. Hell, many aren't even colonies, but instead large mining complexes, or stations. A lot of places rely on farming colonies for food. Like most humans no longer grow their food in the backyard because others do it for us, that is the stage most galactic colonies are at. Why spend a lot of resources making a Biodome when you have regular shipments of food coming in? In case the relay is somehow destroyed? Yeah, like they were expecting that.

Also, your logic on more speed by using more Mass Effect crap doesn't quite hold up for one reason: Drive core charge. They tried that, and their crew would be electricuted by the release of the charge inside the core. The ship would kill itself and the crew thanks to this. Reapers don't manage to go as fast as you are making out our ships should be able to, and they are the fastest ships in the galaxy.

[GLR-0053]

^^Speculations on top of more speculations, the thing is you don't know you can only assume. Which is good that you have a positive outlook.

[SimKoning]

Militarized wrote...

SimKoning wrote...


Or they get in their starships and travel to the nearest garden world. At most it will only take about a decade, which shouldn't be a problem since many ships seem to have cryo pods. Failing that, I don't see why they couldn't adjust their mass effect fields to allow for more time dilation. If they can do that, then a ten year trip might only take a week in ship time...

You might want to think about how vast/empty space is. Gardens worlds are not a dime a dozen, and intragalactic travel is impossible with the FTL technology/lore in ME. ME1 specifically states galactic travel is -impossible- without the Relays. It is very black and white about that. 

The stargazer scene is also 10k years in the future and they don't have space flight yet, it's all a myth/story(which means no records? Technology lost?). 

Face it, they pushed the big "reset" button, that's what the adam and eve reference planet is for... setting everything back. It's a ridiculous plot device but it is what it is. 

You might want to think about how insanely fast 12 light years a day is. At those speeds you could go to the edge of the galaxy and back in about a dozen years; that's 60,000 light years round trip and there are 100 to 300 billion stars in our galaxy. Too many people are going off that one line thrown out by Nihilus, while ignoring what the codex says and of course, reality itself. To put things in perspective, 12 light years per day means that you could get to Proxima Centauri in less than a day.... that's absurdly fast. It's as if the mass relays have everyone spoiled.

 

[leewells]

Funkdrspot wrote...

When i hear people talk bad about the ending, i don't quite understand how the relays blowing up factors into the plot holes or the whole 'everyones gonna die/back to midevil times' ideas.

Did i miss something or are people in Mass Effect times somehow completely helpless and totally unable to hunt/farm? It sounds like a FTL-extension of '1st world problems'. I just don't get the idea of complaining about transportation difficulties when the alternative is galaxy wide genocide.

It's not like earth is overpopulated at the moment. Plenty of beach front property in London and Canada, that's for sure.

As far as the plot hole about the relays not asploding entire solar systems, I always assumed that because the radius of the endgame blast were covering each star cluster ( cluster>>>>>system ), that the energy wasn't as concentrated.

Read this carefully and follow the logic... Relays = Gone => Technology = GONE => Galatic armada = STRANDED over Earth => Earth = dead

Also without the mass relays, you cannot insta-travel to other points in the galaxy, making it so all other galatical technology, trade, replecation, etc an impossibility stranding a galactic armada over a singluar planet.

Modifié par leewells, 03 avril 2012 - 11:33 .

[Joccaren]

Lwyn wrote...

So, using rough (and quick) high school equations with the following simplifications
-m=7.11*10^12 kg
-A=5*225*10^6 m^2 (wards falling on their sides, presidium ring not accounted for)
-rho=4507 kg/m^3 (density of titanium)
-c=0.82 (drag coeffiecient of a rectangle falling on its flat side)
would give us kinetic energy for the Citadel falling at terminal velocity
E=1.2*10^14 J (1.9 times the Little Boy nuke), would mean the Sword fleets bombardment is more devastating than the Citadel (far more)
I did so many simplifications in order to spur someone into making more detailed calculations, have at it.

A few points:
1. You'll find the citadel is likely denser than Titanium. Its outer hull is supposed to be basically inpenitrable. If it were made of normal density Titanium, that wouldn't be the case.
2. The Wards are not Rectangles on their sides. More of a Hemisphere, which I'd roughly translate into a Triangle with a reasonably low slope. Some good dimensions there would likely help. If you are counting the sides as the outer facing part of the hull.

Next thing to take into account is that as the Citadel is no longer one central mass, the impacts affect a far greater area. Its like the blowing an asteroid that is going to impact Earth argument: Sure, you get rid of some of the Mass, but what's left now affects a much larger area with its impact, and results in more overall damage because of such.

Agreed Sword fleet would likely provide a lot more damage though. The Sheer number of shots fired by them is means there will be a LOT of damage done to earth.

[SimKoning]

Joccaren wrote...

SimKoning wrote...

I find it interesting how all these space *colonies* are assumed to be devoid of biodomes... hell, it should be among the first things built on ANY colony situated on a hostile planet.

I love how all cities on Earth are assumed to be free from farms, its the first thing you'd build in the middle of a City. Oh wait...
Things changed. Most colonies rely on other colonies as a source of fuel. Hell, many aren't even colonies, but instead large mining complexes, or stations. A lot of places rely on farming colonies for food. Like most humans no longer grow their food in the backyard because others do it for us, that is the stage most galactic colonies are at. Why spend a lot of resources making a Biodome when you have regular shipments of food coming in? In case the relay is somehow destroyed? Yeah, like they were expecting that.

Also, your logic on more speed by using more Mass Effect crap doesn't quite hold up for one reason: Drive core charge. They tried that, and their crew would be electricuted by the release of the charge inside the core. The ship would kill itself and the crew thanks to this. Reapers don't manage to go as fast as you are making out our ships should be able to, and they are the fastest ships in the galaxy.

We will probably start building indoor farms located within cities in the coming decades. The fact is building a biodome and growing your own food would be cheaper than antimatter and fusion rockets, not to mention eezo. 

I also didn't say MORE speed, if anything they could go *slower* and use less of their "mass effect" and the result should be increased time dilation. If they can get closer to the apparent speed of light within their mass effect envelope, time should slow down for the crew, meaning a 10 years trip may only be a month for the crew. 

Regarding the drive charge, they only need to find a magnetosphere, something that should exist around pretty much any gas giant or rocky world with a liquid core. 

Modifié par SimKoning, 03 avril 2012 - 11:37 .

[Jedi1]

I would just like to chime in with those others commenting that a significan't problem they have with the mass relays being destroyed is that it destroys the univers we had come to know and love. I thought the mass effect univers had potential to be the "Star Wars" of video games. By that I mean it could have branched out into books, more games, comics etc, hell it already was doing this, though still focused around the Shepard trilogy. Mass Effect could have been the basis of endless stories varying for during the events of Shepards story to thousands of years before and after.

But then came the starchild and the space magic and the Mass Effect univers as we know it has ceased to exist. It could have been a goldmine for Bioware and EA, but now I just don't think they could pull it back after this debacle especially considering the massive problems they have written into the universe with the mass relays gone.

[Joccaren]

SimKoning wrote...

You might want to think about how insanely fast 12 light years a day is. At those speeds you could go to the edge of the galaxy and back in about a dozen years; that's 60,000 light years round trip and there are 100 to 300 billion stars in our galaxy. Too many people are going off that one line thrown out by Nihilus, while ignoring what the codex says and of course, reality itself. To put things in perspective, 12 light years per day means that you could get to Proxima Centauri in less than a day.... that's absurdly fast. It's as if the mass relays have everyone spoiled.

 

Umm. What?
Are you...
You don't know how big the galaxy is do you?
It is 100,000 diameter.
A round trip would be far more. Yes, you could get to Proxima Centauri in a day or so, but what about Drive charge, refueling, and actually finding a garden world? Going by in game and real life, Garden worlds ain't too common. They're actually quite rare. The odds that you will find one aren't great.
And BTW, estimated return home flight time for the Quarians without stopping to refuel or discharge drive cores and assuming they travel day and night constantly at their max speed, no ship slowing them down that they have to wait for, and with no maintenance - they have 23 years to get back home. Add in all of the other factors, and it doesn't become sustainable. There is a reason why if we suddenly developed FTL travel at 12 lightyears a day we wouldn't have colonies all across the local cluster within a month: We'd need fuel, we'd need resources for repairs and we'd need to find a planet suitable for building a colony on. Not all are so easy as you think.

[SimKoning]

Umm. What?
Are you...
You don't know how big the galaxy is do you?
It is 100,000 diameter.
A round trip would be far more. Yes, you could get to Proxima Centauri in a day or so, but what about Drive charge, refueling, and actually finding a garden world? Going by in game and real life, Garden worlds ain't too common. They're actually quite rare. The odds that you will find one aren't great.
And BTW, estimated return home flight time for the Quarians without stopping to refuel or discharge drive cores and assuming they travel day and night constantly at their max speed, no ship slowing them down that they have to wait for, and with no maintenance - they have 23 years to get back home. Add in all of the other factors, and it doesn't become sustainable. There is a reason why if we suddenly developed FTL travel at 12 lightyears a day we wouldn't have colonies all across the local cluster within a month: We'd need fuel, we'd need resources for repairs and we'd need to find a planet suitable for building a colony on. Not all are so easy as you think.

And do you think we live in the center of the galaxy? The milky way is 120,000 light years in diameter, it has a 60,000 light year radius, we are half way out from the core in the Orion spur, which means it's about 30,000 light years to the edge of the galaxy, making it a 60,000 light year round trip.

Regarding drive charge: learn what a magnetosphere is.

Regarding Fuel: read up on Helium-3 and where it comes from.

And at 12 light years a day, we should be able to explore thousands of star systems in a matter of years.

Modifié par SimKoning, 03 avril 2012 - 11:47 .

[Joccaren]

SimKoning wrote...

We will probably start building indoor farms located within cities in the coming decades. The fact is building a biodome and growing your own food would be cheaper than antimatter and fusion rockets, not to mention eezo. 

I also didn't say MORE speed, if anything they could go *slower* and use less of their "mass effect" and the result should be increased time dilation. If they can get closer to the apparent speed of light within their mass effect envelope, time should slow down for the crew, meaning a 10 years trip may only be a month for the crew. 

Regarding the drive charge, they only need to find a magnetosphere, something that should exist around pretty much any gas giant or rocky world with a liquid core. 

Yes, we will. That is because we are producing insufficient resources to sustain an ever growing population. If we had trillions of tons of food coming in from farms to each city each week, we wouldn't bother with that cost.

Whilst yes, a Biodome may be cheaper than Anti-Matter and fusion rockets, or Eezo, you can count out the cost of fusion rockets and Eezo - they are already there on trade ships - and the cost of Helium 3 is likely equivilent to what the cost of fuel would be to us. Would you buy the 6 closest houses to you, demolish everything on them, then make a farm there, or would you buy the fuel to go to the Grocery store each week?

As for time dialation, that is all well and good for the Crew of the ship - but that's only 50-75 people, and at most if cramped maybe 80-120. For a frigate/cruiser. For small colonies, this wouldn't be a massive problem. They'd likely have a number of ships there as they are still importing supplies to help set themselves up and such, and they would have relatively few people there too. However, you then have other places like Terra Nova. A lot more ships - yes - but millions of people. There is no hope for such colonies - millions will be left behind to starve, whilst only a few thousand will get to fly off in Cryostasis - assuming the ship pilots itself [Read: Doesn't happen] - and survive.

As for the Magnetosphere: Yes, but the rapid buildup of charge by overusing the drive core would fry them quicker, and such prodedures for releasing the charge can take anywhere from an hour to a day or more, dependent on the ship and the strength of the magnetosphere. Discharging drive cores would take a significant amount of time.

[Transgirlgamer]

cutegigi wrote...

Transgirlgamer wrote...

The difference between arrival and the ME3 end in this respect is, as far as I can see, the difference between setting off a nuclear weapon and shutting it down safely.

im not aware of any method of BLOWING UP a nuclear weapon safely. please provide source if you can.
The relay was blown up. Shutting down the relay so that it would not result in explosion will indeed make more sense and believable.

I meant it's the difference between a catastrophic collision in arrival and a controlled, deliberate shutdown and destruction in ME3.  Now that I put it that way, you're right, my analogy was wrong.  I find it hard to believe that when the relays were built, there wasn't a safety system built in for when one was eventually shut down to prevent the destruction of everything in the same solar system.  Engineers would think of these things.  I know, I am an engineer.

I would also put forwards the proposal that the explosion seen when the relays self destruct wasn't the built up energy being released, as I believe that would have already been done in sending out whatever signal you chose to the entire network.  I suggest that it was a deliberate explosive device, designed to only destroy the superstructure of the relays.  After all, the races of ME3 may not have the technology to damaage a relay wihout driving an asteroid into it, but the builders of the system would have been able to. 

[Joccaren]

SimKoning wrote...

And do you think we live in the center of the galaxy? The milky way is 120,000 light years in diameter, it has a 60,000 light year radius, we are half way out from the core in the Orion spur, which means it's about 30,000 light years to the edge of the galaxy, making it a 60,000 light year round trip.

Regarding drive charge: learn what a magnetosphere is.

Regarding Fuel: read up on Helium-3 and where it comes from.

And at 12 light years a day, we should be able to explore thousands of star systems in a matter of years.

Ok, new quesiton, round trip for what? and for who? It seems you are making a round trip to darkspace, and I have no clue why you would want to go there.

Regarding a magnetosphere: Explained above. It takes time to discharge a drive core. It ain't instant.

Regarding Fuel: Read up on the ships. The Quarians use Helium 3 as they use moslty non-military vessels, and are similarly the only ones who can harvest it atm: All normal refining stations have been destroyed.
Other fleets, which are military fleets, use Antimatter in their drives. That is a LOT harder to make, especially without the right facilities.

And lastly, that is my point. Years. Do you honestly think they will live for those years on what little food supplies they have? Could you live for the next year on only what you have in your pantry? I doubt it. Most don't have years. Many won't even have months. The time it takes to explore and find another garden world is time in which people die. They may get lucky and find one quick. Odds are, they won't get lucky, and many will die because of this.

[AkeasharK]

holysmite2 wrote...

AkeasharK wrote...



Chirality - If the Quarians had their Liveships (which I assume they would since they were bringing their whole fleet to the party) then they have the ability to feed the suddenly depleted Turian and Quarian species, and possibly help set up other gardening stations.

I see this thing mentioned over and over and noone realizes they are wrong.The quarians didnt bring their live ships to the battle.Read the description of the Migrant Fleet after you finish Rannoch.It sais that the live fleets and a part of the patrol fleet will remain on Rannoch and only the heavy fleet and another part of the patrol fleet will accompany you to the battle.
P.S.it may be different depending on what you did(i wiped out the geth) but i doubt it.

Challenge Accepted!

I made peace with the Geth and Quarians, and yes my comment was correct, according to the War Room the Quarians bring all three of their fleets to the party, including the Thanix cannon armed liveships.

... Well, thats a fairly significant difference about the level of serious doodoo a stranded Quarian fleet would be in.

EDIT:  In the instance where you wipe out the Geth and they leave pretty much everyone at home instead, that is.

Modifié par AkeasharK, 03 avril 2012 - 12:00 .

[NasChoka]

It's very funny to read this. Reminds me of the 4 guys in Big Bang theory arguing about something like supermans powers ;-)

- shepard would not destroy the relays if earth ...
- interstellar travel is also possible without relays (otherwise the reapers would not be able to reach earth)

Modifié par NasChoka, 03 avril 2012 - 11:59 .

[SimKoning]

As for the Magnetosphere: Yes, but the rapid buildup of charge by overusing the drive core would fry them quicker, and such prodedures for releasing the charge can take anywhere from an hour to a day or more, dependent on the ship and the strength of the magnetosphere. Discharging drive cores would take a significant amount of time.

Most systems would have gas giants, which have incredibly strong magnetic fields. Jupiter's magnetosphere can act like a giant particle accelerator it's so strong. These ships shouldn't have a real problem dumping their charge.

As far as the colonies go, I'm sorry but I have a hard time believing that a colony with millions of people wouldn't have indoor farms. Growing food locally would be cheaper than importing in their case. As far as smaller colonies go, yeah, they are either screwed or they need to find a ship. Considering billions were killed by the Reapers, and Shepard killed 300,000 Batarians just to stop them, I can't say I'm surprised it ended this way.

[pharsti]

I dont get it either, people seem to dislike 2 points about it.

That in arrival it wipes out systems, while im pretty sure thats not what happened at the end of ME3 many seem to not be able to accept it. No one can prove either way, except that we do see humans be completely unaffected after being hit by the blast.

And that without relays there is no ME and everyone is stranded or something, i dont see this as that big a problem either, its a science fiction story, where a bunch of humans with a lab managed to bring someone from the dead and do quite a bunch of other amazing stuff, them finding a solution or simply a way to survive does not seem so far fetched to me.

But well.... since BW decided to go with the "speculation" thing, this is all just that, and thats annoying

I for one would love proper closure based on my choices, but the relays? They can blow up, i actually liked it.

[Pottumuusi]

The Mass Relays are the most fundamental infrastructure of the galactic civilization, it's like destroying all electronics on modern day Earth, hell, just destroying the internet or even just all the satellites would result in a total ****storm far beyond any disaster movie.

[Joccaren]

Transgirlgamer wrote...

I meant it's the difference between a catastrophic collision in arrival and a controlled, deliberate shutdown and destruction in ME3.  Now that I put it that way, you're right, my analogy was wrong.  I find it hard to believe that when the relays were built, there wasn't a safety system built in for when one was eventually shut down to prevent the destruction of everything in the same solar system.  Engineers would think of these things.  I know, I am an engineer.

I would also put forwards the proposal that the explosion seen when the relays self destruct wasn't the built up energy being released, as I believe that would have already been done in sending out whatever signal you chose to the entire network.  I suggest that it was a deliberate explosive device, designed to only destroy the superstructure of the relays.  After all, the races of ME3 may not have the technology to damaage a relay wihout driving an asteroid into it, but the builders of the system would have been able to. 

Two things:
One, its more like Nuke bomb vs normal power plants. One is a catastrophic uncontrolled explosion, the other is a more controlled explosion. If there is nothing containing the radiation given off by the power plants however - and there is nothing containing the radiation given off by the Relays in ME3 end - it will still kill a lot of people. The core of power plants is well insulated to stop radiation escaping, and the radioactive waste is stored in a safe place that is usually somewhat insulated - usually by the ground and sand - to stop it from damaging the ecosystems and life around the plant. In the ME3 ending, there is no insulation for the radiation given off by the Relays. There is no careful storage of the radioactive waste left behind from the explosions. The damage to Organic life will still be done.

Secondly: What do you propose this 'signal' is? And where do you think all this energy being sent around the network ends up? It isn't nothing, and it doesn't just disappear. In both cases, the energy will be eventually released - likely in a greater concentration at different points around the galaxy - and I doubt that the radiation that the signal gives off is 100% friendly to organics. Look at what it does to Earth if things don't go quite right.