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Mass Bait and Switch


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#1
leewells

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First of all, any EA execs reading this, read it carefully, anyone else, check the links.

I have a realitive that is a judge in the state appellate court system here in North Carolina.  I was able to talk with him earlier yesterday (it is almost 4am now) and asked him how companies were able to do what BioWare was doing and addressing the substance of the complaint filed by that one fan to the FTC.

Here is what I told him (summerized):

From what I have gathered and from what it seems, BioWare advertised a game to the community as the "Epic conclusion to the Mass Effect trillogy" (ref).  It was also advertised as "retake Earth" (ref).  Instead, we are presented with a dream-state ending that does not appeal to the advertisements in which the ending is left without resolution or conclusion and without retaking earth.  It was announced that they were going to be adding DLC to the "post ending" sequences (ref) presumably to be after Shep wakes up from the indoc attempt (see the indoctrination theories in this forum or this if you need help understanding).

Here is what he said (as exact as possible from audible conversation):

"The act of 'bait-and-switch' is the advertisment of a product and selling that product or a diffrent product for a product that is of lesser value or forcing you to buy a product at a higher value [this is why many packages state 'batteries not included' should the product require them].  To advertise a book as 'the end' of a seriese and only selling the entire book except for the last chapter is not the product advertised and therefor a text-book example of bait-and-switch for digital or printed media.  You should look at the Black's Law Dictionary refrence for bait-and-switch."

Now I don't think that I need much proof except to show that this is what wikipedia has to say about the ILLICIT ACT of "Bait-and-Switch":

"Bait-and-switch is a form of fraud, most commonly used in retail sales but also applicable to other contexts. First, customers are "baited" by advertising for a product or service at a low price; second, the customers discover
that the advertised good is not available and are "switched" to a costlier product."

I would say that if BioWare ever intends on releasing post-ending DLC to be PAID for, they will be giving every purchasor of Mass Effect 3 an opritunity to sue for Bait-and-Switch.

As to avoid making any threats, there has been arguements in this thread already that states that the EULA or TOS restricts your rights to encounter BioWare in court, more specifically, it idemnifies BioWare or EA from being held responsible for their own neglagence -- and this is completely innaccurate and would be a grave mistake for BioWare or EA to assume such is true.  As a business admin graduate with limited education in business law, here is what my text-book had to say about it:

Concerning Oppressive Provisions (Contract "blocks")
It states that voided provisions or oppresive provisions are defined as  ... "or a provision declaring that a party shall not be liable for the consequences of his negligence".

"A provision which gives what the court believes is too much advantage over a buyer is likely to be held void as unconscionable,"

"Business Law, Anderson and Kumf, Tenth Edition" [right page close to the top.]

(Book very greatly details court cases for precendent and uniform code statues defined by the FTC at the bottom of the page)

For those of you whom don't quite understand the rage of bait-and-switch, remember that the game is art and protected.  Now imagine that you just invested in the entire set of Encyclopedia Britanica, and only need to now buy book Z.  When you get it in the mail, you notice that the book has 100 blank pages, with "call our sales team for these pages" on them.  That is EXACTLY what has happened here if BioWare decides to release post-ending DLC that is a "non-dream" ending which is why it "fits" into a "bait-and-switch" scheme. 

"But its just a game":  No, it is a PRODUCT, else you would have been using play-money to buy it.

Now keep in mind that in the eyes of the blind lady justice, price does not matter, it does not matter that the entire ME series costs only a total of $200 with all the addon's and EB costs $4,000, what matters is principal and investment into these products.

PLEASE READ VERY, VERY CAREFULLY: I did not, nor have I ever stated any intention to personally sue BioWare.  I did state that the consumer will have a prema facie case should they release the hypothetical DLC.

Edit: cleaned up quotes from copy & paste -- added wikipedia link to "Bait and Switch".
Edit 2: Added text-book PDF on Oppresive Contracts for those whom think BioWare/EA is immune to law suits via the TOS or EULA.

Modifié par leewells, 03 avril 2012 - 06:46 .


#2
RenascentAnt1

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bump

#3
kilgorek

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Yea, you go ahead with that big guy. I'll just stop buying their games. K?

#4
Fulgrim88

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Yeah, that's how it works with products.

For some reason, in the minds of most people, it's somehow different with Games, though.
Don't ask me why.

It's also funny how he'll say that in response to some of the more vague pre-release statements. There are vastly more misleading ones around. Casey's infamous ABC quote being chief among them

#5
Mannie89

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lol @ "any EA execs reading this"

anyways yeah fight the power dude

*goes to get hot pockets*

#6
Edje Edgar

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Its not a bait and switch. But Rushed and Poorly managed.

They didn't do this on purpose. They just went "corporate mindset" and decided money>effort. So if you spend 50 million on ME2 and it was considered great, then spending 100 million on ME3 would automaticly make it brilliant. Every other aspect just got dropped, time, passion and effort were all replaced by putting in moar money.

No evil plots to see here. Just bad management.

#7
leewells

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Fulgrim88 wrote...

Yeah, that's how it works with products.

For some reason, in the minds of most people, it's somehow different with Games, though.
Don't ask me why.

It's also funny how he'll say that in response to some of the more vague pre-release statements. There are vastly more misleading ones around. Casey's infamous ABC quote being chief among them


As long as they don't release any post-ending DLC (or "the real ending") they can always stick to their guns of "artistic integrity", but as soon as they attempt to make more profit by using this method, they cross a very illegal line in which they're currently encroaching upon now with the ending as it is with a significantly "less than advertised" game.

DLC is legal, just as long as the content wasn't "pulled out" of the game before it was sold.  When they start doing this, or advertising a full game that has to be purchased in pieces to achieve its advertised goal, it becomes illegal.

#8
Aweus

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No. Just no. Stop with this "sue this, sue that" nonsense. I am all for revised endings and will keep holding the line for this cause but just leave the jury system out of this. It is not helping anybody.

#9
leewells

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Edje Edgar wrote...

Its not a bait and switch. But Rushed and Poorly managed.

They didn't do this on purpose. They just went "corporate mindset" and decided money>effort. So if you spend 50 million on ME2 and it was considered great, then spending 100 million on ME3 would automaticly make it brilliant. Every other aspect just got dropped, time, passion and effort were all replaced by putting in moar money.

No evil plots to see here. Just bad management.


If the ending is consistant with the indoc theory (if this is how it is clarified after PAX) and they intend on releasing a "real ending" it is indeed bait and switch by definition.

#10
Fulgrim88

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leewells wrote...

Fulgrim88 wrote...

Yeah, that's how it works with products.

For some reason, in the minds of most people, it's somehow different with Games, though.
Don't ask me why.

It's also funny how he'll say that in response to some of the more vague pre-release statements. There are vastly more misleading ones around. Casey's infamous ABC quote being chief among them


As long as they don't release any post-ending DLC (or "the real ending") they can always stick to their guns of "artistic integrity", but as soon as they attempt to make more profit by using this method, they cross a very illegal line in which they're currently encroaching upon now with the ending as it is with a significantly "less than advertised" game.

DLC is legal, just as long as the content wasn't "pulled out" of the game before it was sold.  When they start doing this, or advertising a full game that has to be purchased in pieces to achieve its advertised goal, it becomes illegal.

I'm aware of that, I was stating it more in a general context. For the amount of crap people are willing to take from Game Developers as opposed to, well...pretty much any other company is staggering.

#11
Catroi

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Omanisat wrote...

From a section entitled THE PLAN:
 
“In Mass Effect 3, you know you need to take back Earth, but the path to victory is less clear at the outset. You won’t just find some long-lost Reaper “off” button; says Hudson "
 
From a section called OLD CONFLICTS, NEW ALLIES:
 
“Don’t expect to win the loyalty of the galaxy by simply completing a series of fetch quests,”
 
In a section called BEYOND THE TRILOGY:
 
“…
part of what you’re trying to do is save the universe so you can live
in it. That’s part of the promise, I think, for any great IP. It has to
be a world worth saving… I think Mass Effect has that quality to it. If
you get rid of the Reapers and win that, wouldn’t it be amazing to just live on the Citadel or just take a ship to Omega? That makes sense.”
 


from Game informer, issue 217, May 2011...

#12
ScriptDiver

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Edje Edgar wrote...

Its not a bait and switch. But Rushed and Poorly managed.


EAs main focus is very short term investments.

That's why they have a seriously bad rep on the market. That's why their shares won't go up. That's why products like ME3 is delivered as they are. That's why EA is the laughing stock among other supersized videogame publishers. And inevitably that's what will bring them down in the end.

You can only slay this dragon by not buying its products.

#13
leewells

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Fulgrim88 wrote...

leewells wrote...

Fulgrim88 wrote...

Yeah, that's how it works with products.

For some reason, in the minds of most people, it's somehow different with Games, though.
Don't ask me why.

It's also funny how he'll say that in response to some of the more vague pre-release statements. There are vastly more misleading ones around. Casey's infamous ABC quote being chief among them


As long as they don't release any post-ending DLC (or "the real ending") they can always stick to their guns of "artistic integrity", but as soon as they attempt to make more profit by using this method, they cross a very illegal line in which they're currently encroaching upon now with the ending as it is with a significantly "less than advertised" game.

DLC is legal, just as long as the content wasn't "pulled out" of the game before it was sold.  When they start doing this, or advertising a full game that has to be purchased in pieces to achieve its advertised goal, it becomes illegal.

I'm aware of that, I was stating it more in a general context. For the amount of crap people are willing to take from Game Developers as opposed to, well...pretty much any other company is staggering.


Agreed, but there are gaming companies being sued (an have to pay) on a near-daily basis.  One of the most hard-hit companies out there is Sony Online Entertainment (in this state from what our department of justice website says).

#14
tenojitsu

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Didnt you know that gamers arent real consumers, or even real people for that matter so laws and basic human decency dont apply to us? We're just entitled, spoiled little kids, according to all the grown ups of the world.

#15
Squiggles1334

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Lawsuits over the ME3 ending, lol what will they think of next?

#16
Valraine

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Catroi wrote...

Omanisat wrote...

From a section entitled THE PLAN:
 
“In Mass Effect 3, you know you need to take back Earth, but the path to victory is less clear at the outset. You won’t just find some long-lost Reaper “off” button; says Hudson "
 
From a section called OLD CONFLICTS, NEW ALLIES:
 
“Don’t expect to win the loyalty of the galaxy by simply completing a series of fetch quests,”
 
In a section called BEYOND THE TRILOGY:
 
“…
part of what you’re trying to do is save the universe so you can live
in it. That’s part of the promise, I think, for any great IP. It has to
be a world worth saving… I think Mass Effect has that quality to it. If
you get rid of the Reapers and win that, wouldn’t it be amazing to just live on the Citadel or just take a ship to Omega? That makes sense.”
 


from Game informer, issue 217, May 2011...


Gee, I bet it would be amazing to just live on the Citadel or just take a ship to Omega.
Oh, right...

#17
Rafe34

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Edje Edgar wrote...

Its not a bait and switch. But Rushed and Poorly managed.

They didn't do this on purpose. They just went "corporate mindset" and decided money>effort. So if you spend 50 million on ME2 and it was considered great, then spending 100 million on ME3 would automaticly make it brilliant. Every other aspect just got dropped, time, passion and effort were all replaced by putting in moar money.

No evil plots to see here. Just bad management.


It IS a bait and switch if Indoc is true and that was their plan all along AND it's paid-for DLC. I think that's a very low possibility, but if its true, it is bait and switch by definition.

#18
Trentgamer

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[/quote]

EAs main focus is very short term investments.

That's why they have a seriously bad rep on the market. That's why their shares won't go up. That's why products like ME3 is delivered as they are. That's why EA is the laughing stock among other supersized videogame publishers. And inevitably that's what will bring them down in the end.

You can only slay this dragon by not buying its products.
[/quote]

This. Truth. In a world ruled by greed, money is your only real weapon.

Modifié par Trentgamer, 03 avril 2012 - 08:34 .


#19
leewells

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Rafe34 wrote...

Edje Edgar wrote...

Its not a bait and switch. But Rushed and Poorly managed.

They didn't do this on purpose. They just went "corporate mindset" and decided money>effort. So if you spend 50 million on ME2 and it was considered great, then spending 100 million on ME3 would automaticly make it brilliant. Every other aspect just got dropped, time, passion and effort were all replaced by putting in moar money.

No evil plots to see here. Just bad management.


It IS a bait and switch if Indoc is true and that was their plan all along AND it's paid-for DLC. I think that's a very low possibility, but if its true, it is bait and switch by definition.


Only if they intend on "selling" (for profit) the real ending.  If they give it away at no cost as part of an appology it becomes a wrong made right.  If they release no DLC, as my uncle said, "it is a very grey area" because the judge can't assume that there was "intent" for profiting for the rest of the product.  If they do come out with a mass effect 4 or dlc in continuation after the ending -- then it is a "for sure" deal.

I would like to add as an edit: the reason for asking my relative about this issue was because of the FTC complaint -- I was on the fense about the fan that filed that complaint against BioWare, and after describing the game to my uncle, he very clearly said that if that was indeed what happened, then the guy had substancial reason to file the complaint.

Modifié par leewells, 03 avril 2012 - 08:38 .


#20
Zolt51

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Look, what you saw was the real ending get used to it. Hudson and Muzyka have pretty much said so themselves. They never expected the huge backslash.

It more a case of: "We've made a game and we *think* it's pretty damn cool. Oops, turns out the fans don't think so."

#21
krogstor

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Trentgamer wrote...

EAs main focus is very short term investments.

That's
why they have a seriously bad rep on the market. That's why their
shares won't go up. That's why products like ME3 is delivered as they
are. That's why EA is the laughing stock among other supersized
videogame publishers. And inevitably that's what will bring them down in
the end.

You can only slay this dragon by not buying its products.

This. Truth. In a world ruled by greed, money is your only real weapon.


Modifié par krogstor, 03 avril 2012 - 08:39 .


#22
Rafe34

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leewells wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...

Edje Edgar wrote...

Its not a bait and switch. But Rushed and Poorly managed.

They didn't do this on purpose. They just went "corporate mindset" and decided money>effort. So if you spend 50 million on ME2 and it was considered great, then spending 100 million on ME3 would automaticly make it brilliant. Every other aspect just got dropped, time, passion and effort were all replaced by putting in moar money.

No evil plots to see here. Just bad management.


It IS a bait and switch if Indoc is true and that was their plan all along AND it's paid-for DLC. I think that's a very low possibility, but if its true, it is bait and switch by definition.


Only if they intend on "selling" (for profit) the real ending.  If they give it away at no cost as part of an appology it becomes a wrong made right.  If they release no DLC, as my uncle said, "it is a very grey area" because the judge can't assume that there was "intent" for profiting for the rest of the product.  If they do come out with a mass effect 4 or dlc in continuation after the ending -- then it is a "for sure" deal.


That would be why I included.

AND it's paid-for DLC



#23
Hy0ga

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 I think this is just bad writing + rushed work. Or the IT is true. In anycase, I bet Casey laughed hard after saying this; 

Posted Image

#24
Dominator24

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1. We still don't know if the last minutes were dream indoctrination or just rushed job.
2. We still don't know if we get the alternate ending and if yes if it will be paid or not.

#25
leewells

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Zolt51 wrote...

Look, what you saw was the real ending get used to it. Hudson and Muzyka have pretty much said so themselves. They never expected the huge backslash.

It more a case of: "We've made a game and we *think* it's pretty damn cool. Oops, turns out the fans don't think so."


Was this not said on April 1st (April Fool's Day)?