267 réponses à ce sujet

[Aurvant]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Aurvant wrote...

I am increasingly becoming convinced that if you're seriously typing out the phrase "the ending made sense" then you shouldn't ever pick up a piece of literature ever again.

No, they definitely need to because it means that they've only read maybe 3 pieces of literature  in their lifetimes.

Maybe they should stick to coloring books, for it's clearly their medium. How else to explain the love for such simple and color-coded endings?

[Mcfly616]

Hahaa so true

[beccathelion]

I'm with OP. I'll hold the line until PAX. If they try to peddle some **** then, I'm gonna throw something threw my window and then sell all my games.

[blacqout]

Relwyn wrote...

blacqout wrote...

Relwyn wrote...

As for blacqout, yes, having an education (for instance an english major) does give you some advantages when it comes to discussing literature, as one recieves an education one gains new insights that's hidden for many people. Just as I have a degree in biomedical sciences gains me an insight into research and medicine much more so than what a car mechanic would have. 

This is what we in the biz would describe as a "straw man", and is an all too common fallacy on these boards..

Strawman fallacy: when you attack a position that your opponent does not hold. And here I was only making an analogy, not attacking a position of yours. Please go read up on this before you start calling people out on logical fallacies, and you could use a dose of humility when replying to people. You won't gain many friends (wether it's forums or not) by being arrogant. 

You'll find that many more people will take you seriously and respect your opinion (wether they agree with it or not) if you ...well...act respectful towards them.

Likening my comments to the musings of religious zealots does constitute an attack... though you're being far too literal.

When i say: Having an English degree does not make you the arbiter of great story telling.

And you say: Actually, having an education in something does give you an advantage.

You are a) arguing my opinion, and mispreresenting it to do so. Ergo... straw man.

[Bubalo]

blacqout wrote...

krogstor wrote...

blacqout wrote...

If you couldn't follow the narrative closely enough, or give the major themes due contemplation, then maybe you should just call it a day and leave.

The ending made sense. I get that you dislike it, but whining like a child is just rather sad. Good day.

The ending made sense?  Are you ****ing high?

Some drugs do aid higher thinking. The guy that discovered the double helix nature of DNA did so while high on LSD.

It's unnecessary for me, being a genius, but perhaps you should play the ending again, while under the influence. You might be able to make more sense of it.

The "guy" that discovered the double helix nature of DNA was actually a chick

[Hudathan]

People are asking to be smashed over the head a bit more with the current ending and that's what all the press releases have alluded to. The most they're going to do is fill in the plot blanks so that people can stop arguing about different stuff and then put in some epilogue. Anyone expecting there to be multiple, alternative, conflicting endings is going to get disappointed.

[blacqout]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

blacqout wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

blacqout wrote...

Relwyn wrote...

As for blacqout, yes, having an education (for instance an english major) does give you some advantages when it comes to discussing literature, as one recieves an education one gains new insights that's hidden for many people. Just as I have a degree in biomedical sciences gains me an insight into research and medicine much more so than what a car mechanic would have. 

This is what we in the biz would describe as a "straw man", and is an all too common fallacy on these boards..

For the anti-enders only, of course. Right.

I'm not so petty as to automatically align myself with someone just because they share my opinion on something.

His retort was a straw man, but i am sure that childish approach to discussion is taken by many people on "my side" too.

Sorry, people who defend the ending tend to be labeled pro-enders. That's just how it goes.

As long as you understand that this is very much a two way street.

Well... it's not, because as your signature tells us, you willingly associate with the "retake" group.

I have no such associations, and find most of those that enjoyed the endings similarly ignorant.

[Relwyn]

blacqout wrote...

Relwyn wrote...

blacqout wrote...

Relwyn wrote...

As for blacqout, yes, having an education (for instance an english major) does give you some advantages when it comes to discussing literature, as one recieves an education one gains new insights that's hidden for many people. Just as I have a degree in biomedical sciences gains me an insight into research and medicine much more so than what a car mechanic would have. 

This is what we in the biz would describe as a "straw man", and is an all too common fallacy on these boards..

Strawman fallacy: when you attack a position that your opponent does not hold. And here I was only making an analogy, not attacking a position of yours. Please go read up on this before you start calling people out on logical fallacies, and you could use a dose of humility when replying to people. You won't gain many friends (wether it's forums or not) by being arrogant. 

You'll find that many more people will take you seriously and respect your opinion (wether they agree with it or not) if you ...well...act respectful towards them.

Likening my comments to the musings of religious zealots does constitute an attack... though you're being far too literal.

When i say: Having an English degree does not make you the arbiter of great story telling.

And you say: Actually, having an education in something does give you an advantage.

You are a) arguing my opinion, and mispreresenting it to do so. Ergo... straw man.

First of all, "the likening" as you put it was just a personal opinion that I voiced, since I have heard similar comments come from religious people, zealots or no zealots.

A) i was arguing your opinion,
is pretty much well....BS... considering I did not misrepresent what you said, I countered your argument with one of my own (this is called debating). I do not see how I was misrepresenting your argument when doing so.

Ergo, it's not a strawman fallacy. 

You said: A
I said: No, it's actually B because....[following analogy]

If we'd operate under your logic, then any counterargument ever presented would be a strawman, which it is not. I even went ahead to provide a reason as to why the analogy is valid. 

[blacqout]

Bubalo wrote...

blacqout wrote...

krogstor wrote...

blacqout wrote...

If you couldn't follow the narrative closely enough, or give the major themes due contemplation, then maybe you should just call it a day and leave.

The ending made sense. I get that you dislike it, but whining like a child is just rather sad. Good day.

The ending made sense?  Are you ****ing high?

Some drugs do aid higher thinking. The guy that discovered the double helix nature of DNA did so while high on LSD.

It's unnecessary for me, being a genius, but perhaps you should play the ending again, while under the influence. You might be able to make more sense of it.

The "guy" that discovered the double helix nature of DNA was actually a chick

James Watson and Francis Crick were both men.

[FataliTensei]

blacqout wrote...

If you couldn't follow the narrative closely enough, or give the major themes due contemplation, then maybe you should just call it a day and leave.

The ending made sense. I get that you dislike it, but whining like a child is just rather sad. Good day.

The ending made no sense narrative wise, it goes against every single thematic element of the last 2 games, spits in the face of the lore of the universe and leaves a bitter galaxy where most people will end up starving to death if they weren't killed by the explosions of the Relays.

[Tanis1983]

Simply put, there is far too much thought going into all of this. I highly doubt that there was as much coming from Bioware writers. They thought they did a good job; they believed everyone would be pleased with the ending. Having to explain it to this level was probably something they never saw coming.

The fact that it needs this much explanation and speculation is proof enough that it was not what it was promised to be. And I believe that's something you may have lost sight of Blacquot. The general outrage at the ending comes from a lack of narrative cohesion, yes. But I believe it comes more from a list of broken promises.

There is a rather hefty list of pre-release quotes that promied, and i dare say guaranteed a great number of things. Complete closure of all significant story lines. The lack of 'A,B',C' type endings, etc. That is where the majority of the outrage appears to be coming from.

I do not like the ending, but i will concede you one point. Your argument about Shepard being mentally battered and beaten by the time he reaches the Crucible makes sense.

The rest of it though, is left entire up to speculation. If you can logically reason it out in your own mind, then good for you; that's what BioWare was going for. But the fact that it requires this much digging, explaining, and down-right REACHING, to take away anything from the ending other than what you actually got tells me that it failed.

Just my thoughts.

[Unit-Alpha]

blacqout wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

blacqout wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

blacqout wrote...

Relwyn wrote...

As for blacqout, yes, having an education (for instance an english major) does give you some advantages when it comes to discussing literature, as one recieves an education one gains new insights that's hidden for many people. Just as I have a degree in biomedical sciences gains me an insight into research and medicine much more so than what a car mechanic would have. 

This is what we in the biz would describe as a "straw man", and is an all too common fallacy on these boards..

For the anti-enders only, of course. Right.

I'm not so petty as to automatically align myself with someone just because they share my opinion on something.

His retort was a straw man, but i am sure that childish approach to discussion is taken by many people on "my side" too.

Sorry, people who defend the ending tend to be labeled pro-enders. That's just how it goes.

As long as you understand that this is very much a two way street.

Well... it's not, because as your signature tells us, you willingly associate with the "retake" group.

I have no such associations, and find most of those that enjoyed the endings similarly ignorant.

...Read what I replied to again. The two way street comment was directed at your straw man comment.

I'm pretty sure that's a straw man right there.

Modifié par Unit-Alpha, 03 avril 2012 - 04:19 .

[jlb524]

blacqout wrote...
Mac Walters has written something that a lot of people loved... for the most part. Your english degree does not overide his knowledge of his own story, and your approval is certainly a not prerequisite for a compelling narrative. It's unfortunate that you were unable to properly grasp the story, however.

Not sure what that has to do with people thinking the ending sucked based on standards typically usesd to judge such things.

[blacqout]

Relwyn wrote...

blacqout wrote...

Relwyn wrote...

blacqout wrote...

Relwyn wrote...

As for blacqout, yes, having an education (for instance an english major) does give you some advantages when it comes to discussing literature, as one recieves an education one gains new insights that's hidden for many people. Just as I have a degree in biomedical sciences gains me an insight into research and medicine much more so than what a car mechanic would have. 

This is what we in the biz would describe as a "straw man", and is an all too common fallacy on these boards..

Strawman fallacy: when you attack a position that your opponent does not hold. And here I was only making an analogy, not attacking a position of yours. Please go read up on this before you start calling people out on logical fallacies, and you could use a dose of humility when replying to people. You won't gain many friends (wether it's forums or not) by being arrogant. 

You'll find that many more people will take you seriously and respect your opinion (wether they agree with it or not) if you ...well...act respectful towards them.

Likening my comments to the musings of religious zealots does constitute an attack... though you're being far too literal.

When i say: Having an English degree does not make you the arbiter of great story telling.

And you say: Actually, having an education in something does give you an advantage.

You are a) arguing my opinion, and mispreresenting it to do so. Ergo... straw man.

First of all, "the likening" as you put it was just a personal opinion that I voiced, since I have heard similar comments come from religious people, zealots or no zealots.

A) i was arguing your opinion,
is pretty much well....BS... considering I did not misrepresent what you said, I countered your argument with one of my own (this is called debating). I do not see how I was misrepresenting your argument when doing so.

Ergo, it's not a strawman fallacy. 

You said: A
I said: No, it's actually B because....[following analogy]

If we'd operate under your logic, then any counterargument ever presented would be a strawman, which it is not. I even went ahead to provide a reason as to why the analogy is valid. 

Nope. You didn't argue my point at all. You presented a new one that is easily knocked down. That is a straw man.

I did not state, or imply, that having an education does not give you an advantage.

[Aurvant]

blacqout wrote...

Bubalo wrote...

blacqout wrote...

krogstor wrote...

blacqout wrote...

If you couldn't follow the narrative closely enough, or give the major themes due contemplation, then maybe you should just call it a day and leave.

The ending made sense. I get that you dislike it, but whining like a child is just rather sad. Good day.

The ending made sense?  Are you ****ing high?

Some drugs do aid higher thinking. The guy that discovered the double helix nature of DNA did so while high on LSD.

It's unnecessary for me, being a genius, but perhaps you should play the ending again, while under the influence. You might be able to make more sense of it.

The "guy" that discovered the double helix nature of DNA was actually a chick

James Watson and Francis Crick were both men.

Rosalin Franklin actually "discovered" the Double Helix design. She was an X-ray diffraction expert who's pictures of DNA proteins first revealed the double helix nature. Crick and Watson based their studies off of her findings.

[Relwyn]

FataliTensei wrote...

blacqout wrote...

If you couldn't follow the narrative closely enough, or give the major themes due contemplation, then maybe you should just call it a day and leave.

The ending made sense. I get that you dislike it, but whining like a child is just rather sad. Good day.

The ending made no sense narrative wise, it goes against every single thematic element of the last 2 games, spits in the face of the lore of the universe and leaves a bitter galaxy where most people will end up starving to death if they weren't killed by the explosions of the Relays.

As a chick from Stargate Atlantis said to Dr McKay when he wanted to destroy an entire solar system: "You don't mess around do you?"

She could've said that to Shepard as well  When Shep wants to destroy something, he/she thinks big 

Modifié par Relwyn, 03 avril 2012 - 04:20 .

[Darth Asriel]

OP- I agree with you 100%!! At this point BW needs to be upfront and honest about SOMETHING!!!! I'm tired of twitter updates, storylines being delivered via twitter, Facebook, and wiki pages. MAN UP BW! Either say "our bad and we got this" or tell us to "kick rocks" either way ts way past time.

Oh and to the troll who said the endings make sense........ This is laughable. There is no logic, in any sense of the word that one can use to justify this atrocity. Claiming to "get" the endings doesn't make you smart or a genius. If you like them that's one thing, and everyone is entitled to an opinion. But to say that liking that farce is based on some level of intelligence is illogical at best, and highly insulting at worst.

I would go on further, but frankly I have grown tired. Tired of BW and this whole mess. If they make this right I'll be happy, but the damage has already been done. Continue to kick me in the crotch.... Ito for the scorched earth approach.

[blacqout]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

blacqout wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

blacqout wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

blacqout wrote...

Relwyn wrote...

As for blacqout, yes, having an education (for instance an english major) does give you some advantages when it comes to discussing literature, as one recieves an education one gains new insights that's hidden for many people. Just as I have a degree in biomedical sciences gains me an insight into research and medicine much more so than what a car mechanic would have. 

This is what we in the biz would describe as a "straw man", and is an all too common fallacy on these boards..

For the anti-enders only, of course. Right.

I'm not so petty as to automatically align myself with someone just because they share my opinion on something.

His retort was a straw man, but i am sure that childish approach to discussion is taken by many people on "my side" too.

Sorry, people who defend the ending tend to be labeled pro-enders. That's just how it goes.

As long as you understand that this is very much a two way street.

Well... it's not, because as your signature tells us, you willingly associate with the "retake" group.

I have no such associations, and find most of those that enjoyed the endings similarly ignorant.

...Read what I replied to again. The two way street comment was directed at your straw man comment.

I'm pretty sure that's a straw man right there.

No, that's quite a simple misunderstanding. It wasn't at all obvious which specific part of my comment you were replying to.

[Relwyn]

blacqout wrote...

Nope. You didn't argue my point at all. You presented a new one that is easily knocked down. That is a straw man.

I did not state, or imply, that having an education does not give you an advantage.

blacqout wrote...

Do you really think that having a degree makes you some sort of arbiter of quality story telling? Obviously not, which is why you then defer to a professor's judgement... which is lame, even as far as appeals to authority go. 

 

Would you care to revise your statement?

p.s (I did not come with a new point here, I simply said that you're wrong, because having a degree can give you an advantage - and then Iprovided an analogy to prove my point) Again, please read up on what a strawman fallacy is before you start calling people on it. 

Modifié par Relwyn, 03 avril 2012 - 04:25 .

[Mcfly616]

blacqout wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

Blacquot

I'm an English major....degree and all.....don't go acting like it was a cohesive story all the way through the trilogy....killing off characters with no explanation is LAZY WRITING and shows a lack of creativity by the Writer(Bioware went a step further and killed Everyone).....any Professor will tell you that....that is English 101 so stfu and stop acting like you know what you're talking about

Do you really think that having a degree makes you some sort of arbiter of quality story telling? Obviously not, which is why you then defer to a professor's judgement... which is lame, even as far as appeals to authority go.

I have several degrees myself - though i don't normally bring them up, as i'm not a braggart. One of which is a bachelor of music. While i have some ideas on how Tchaikovsky could have improved Eugin Onegin, i wouldn't presume to know his work better than he did.

Mac Walters has written something that a lot of people loved... for the most part. Your english degree does not overide his knowledge of his own story, and your approval is certainly a not prerequisite for a compelling narrative. It's unfortunate that you were unable to properly grasp the story, however.

Haha you miss the point just like you obviously missed the creators of Mass Effect saying that our decisions shape the outcome.....because they don't...and you're still defending the ending....

Either way, you're a fool to assume I defer to my professors considering I've had published work since high school, and I've been a college graduate for 5 years....I defer to nobody, and I never have....I'll take constructive criticism though, as should all "good" writers....Mac Walters however, obviously didn't.....


I don't need to list my degrees, accolades or accomplishments, but by you assuming that you know anything about me or how I approach my field of work, is just ignorant and foolish and is a perfect demonstration of the intelligence that you are clearly lacking....

My whole point was to say, you're taught from the first time you take Creative Writing and then all the way through college....its common knowledge, that killing off any character in a way that is not cohesive to the story, is LAZY and Not CREATIVE....from middle school, all the way up to college and the professional level....and Bioware killed the entire galaxy....whether it be quick or slow, theyre all dead one way or another...

Alas, this isn't even my real issue....as you've missed time and again throughout this thread...

No....My issue is that my choices Do Not Matter.....they do not decide the outcome in many varying endings as Casey Hudson himself, said they would....and he said this just a few weeks prior to release....

Seriously, QFT...STFU....and get a life....because you know nothing of mine

[blacqout]

Relwyn wrote...

blacqout wrote...

Nope. You didn't argue my point at all. You presented a new one that is easily knocked down. That is a straw man.

I did not state, or imply, that having an education does not give you an advantage.

blacqout wrote...

Do you really think that having a degree makes you some sort of arbiter of quality story telling? Obviously not, which is why you then defer to a professor's judgement... which is lame, even as far as appeals to authority go. 

 

Would you care to revise your statement?

Do you not know what the word arbiter means?

[Karmicmoogle]

I take it the fans also just did not "understand" the Mass Effect Deception novel...

"The teams at Del Rey and BioWare would like to extend our sincerest apologies to the Mass Effect fans for any errors and oversights made in the recent novel Mass Effect: Deception. We are currently working on a number of changes that will appear in future editions of the novel" - Chris Priestly

[AwesomeDudex64]

blacqout wrote...

If you couldn't follow the narrative closely enough, or give the major themes due contemplation, then maybe you should just call it a day and leave.

The ending made sense. I get that you dislike it, but whining like a child is just rather sad. Good day.

Dude what are you smoking?

[Bubalo]

Aurvant wrote...

blacqout wrote...

Bubalo wrote...

blacqout wrote...

krogstor wrote...

blacqout wrote...

If you couldn't follow the narrative closely enough, or give the major themes due contemplation, then maybe you should just call it a day and leave.

The ending made sense. I get that you dislike it, but whining like a child is just rather sad. Good day.

The ending made sense?  Are you ****ing high?

Some drugs do aid higher thinking. The guy that discovered the double helix nature of DNA did so while high on LSD.

It's unnecessary for me, being a genius, but perhaps you should play the ending again, while under the influence. You might be able to make more sense of it.

The "guy" that discovered the double helix nature of DNA was actually a chick

James Watson and Francis Crick were both men.

Rosalin Franklin actually "discovered" the Double Helix design. She was an X-ray diffraction expert who's pictures of DNA proteins first revealed the double helix nature. Crick and Watson based their studies off of her findings.

Yup. And to my knowledge it was only Crick who was supposably on LSD at the time. 

[NA1]

blacqout wrote...

Militarized wrote...

blacqout wrote...

If you couldn't follow the narrative closely enough, or give the major themes due contemplation, then maybe you should just call it a day and leave.

The ending made sense. I get that you dislike it, but whining like a child is just rather sad. Good day.

While I disagree with the message of the OP, the ending did not make sense. Might want to take a writing 101 class. 

What does that even mean? If you're trying to imply that the ending of Mass Effect 3 didn't strictly adhere to well-established and more traditional storytelling formulas, i'd agree.

That doesn't make it "bad" or nonsensical, though. It is okay to do things a little differently.

You make a good point though: i think this is why highly creative people, such as myself, are more fond of the ending than those that rigidly comply with orthodox techniques and formulas.

..... ahahahahahahahahahahaha.