251 réponses à ce sujet

[JasonShepard]

count_4 wrote...

I don't think a relay as small as the conduit is enough to transport a vessel much larger than the Mako from ME1 which means a lot of resources need to be apprehended to build suffciently large ones.

Well, yes, but we only really need to transport people, not ships. The actual fleets can wait until we've gotten better at building relays, or could be mothballed in order to get the requisite amounts of eezo for the conduits.

count_4 wrote...

The Citadel alone might not cause it(if it goes down a all) but the combined bombardment of Sword will. They are firing directly at Earth while closing in, almost every shot that misses a Reaper is a direct hit.
That means for every shot a dreadnought misses, there is an impact equal to two times Hiroshima down on Earth. Every single shot.
Now let's assume only 1% of the shots fired deviate enough to miss the Repaers but still hit Earth. I don't exactly know how many dreadnoughts are on site but estimations were about 100 iirc. Over the course of a battle merely half an hour in length, that would equal almost 1000 nuclear bombs worth of impact. And that's just the few dreadnoughts.
There are (tens of) thousands of smaller ships out there that have smaller ordnance than the major vessels but still large enough to pack one hell of a punch.

Earth is a post-apocalyptic wasteland in the middle of a nuclear winter once the fight is over.

Hmm. That's a good point. A pincer attack could avoid shots from hitting Earth (ie, don't fire at the Reapers if Earth is behind them) but that isn't what's shown. Alternatively, a Paragon approach could be along the lines of "Don't shoot unless you know you're going to hit!" but to be honest, the stakes are too high. Earth isn't worth more than the one chance to stop the Reapers.

I believe the ME1 codex also goes into some detail about this sort of thing. I'll agree that, at the very least, one side of Earth is going to be in fairly bad shape. America and Australia are probably going to be better off, as well as China/ Eastern Russia.

Modifié par JasonShepard, 03 avril 2012 - 03:12 .

[gekko513]

survivor_686 wrote...

Still...the relays detonated. As established in the Arrival, a relay blowing up wipes out anything in that systems. Yet somehow Shepard survived...or not. Plot hole?

Nah, just stubborn thinking. The star child says that the crucible will trigger a chain reaction using the relays to spread the dark energy signal that does the transformation. The energy from the mass relay that would destroy the system in an uncontrolled blast, is instead controlled to obtain the desired result.

The Citadel, the Crucible and the mass relays are all key components for the device to work. One has to assume that the star child AI has known about all the possible uses including the mass relays for a long time. He could have had the reapers destroy the relay network, but he's waiting for an organic that's willing to help with the synthesis solution.

[pistolols]

Beliyaal wrote...

survivor_686 wrote...

Still...the relays detonated. As established in the Arrival, a relay blowing up wipes out anything in that systems. Yet somehow Shepard survived...or not. Plot hole?

They exploded in the same color as the space magic wave, presumably the space magic converted the relay explosion into more space magic. 

Assuming it is HIGH SCORE space magic, space magic isn't deadly to anyone but the normandy (this is because Engineer Addams once said he doesn't believe in fairies), though it will cause your tongue to taste purple for a while. 

This seems like an issue that needs a direct answer from someone like a casey hudson or mac walters.  I have seen it argued both ways very well, and you can't really ignore shepard taking a breath.

but then why even introduce this concept of systems getting blow'd up in arrival like that?  Just to confuse us?  Some kind of accidental incorrect foreshadowing?  lol.  Or are we meant to wonder if it could go either way?

Modifié par pistolols, 03 avril 2012 - 03:08 .

[JasmoVT]

I think you all are postulating a lot more aliens on earth than are supported by the objective data. Half of landing forcing were wiped out before reaching the surface, radio reports clearly indicate engaged forces were suffering 75% to 100% losses. Best estimate 10% to 20% of alien ground forces remaining with numbers lowest among most agressive. Based on scenes of space battles, 25% to 50% of fleets were wiped out. There are not huge quanties of aliens that need to get back to home worlds in fact the numbers are quite small. So transits are quite doable. Survival of species dependent entirely on what populations left on home worlds were not return of the fleets.

[Extort]

Its not just fuel, maintenance thats the issue... what about food? Sanity? And the navigation in deep space? What about power for all the computers and equipment?

[Orthodox Infidel]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

If the mass relays blew like we were shown in Arrival, then all of those fleets have no homeworld to return to.

No one would be thanking Shepard for his/her supposed 'sacrifice'.

A space magic scenario would have to be invented in order to cover up why we are shown a Mass Relay blowing up in Arrival (and is written in the codex) doesn't do so at the end of ME3.

Because they're not the same kind of blow up. Really, this isn't a stretch; if they were the same kind of blow up, the the Citadel would have blown up so big that it would have completely smashed Earth into tiny pieces. Remember, the Citadel is in reality the largest mass relay in the galaxy.

Then more space magic needs to be invented to manage where they get the fuel.

No space magic is required for this at all; helium-3 is constantly touted throughout the codex as an interstellar fuel, and there's LOADS of it in Saturn's atmosphere that can be scooped up.

As I recall, using FTL drives on the galaxy map burned quite a bit of fuel just going from star system to star system. Nevermind traveling from star cluster to star cluster.

There's a lot of gameplay and story segregation there, but as the OP said, "engineering problem."

[Orthodox Infidel]

Extort wrote...

Its not just fuel, maintenance thats the issue... what about food? Sanity?

Cryonics.

And the navigation in deep space?

Telescopes.

What about power for all the computers and equipment?

Fusion.

[JasonShepard]

pistolols wrote...

but then why even introduce this concept of systems getting blow'd up in arrival like that?  Just to confuse us?  Some kind of accidental incorrect foreshadowing?  lol.  Or are we meant to wonder if it could go either way?

Presumably so they could have a good reason why Shepard would have been taken off the Normandy by the start of ME3. At least, that's all I ever viewed it as.

[Beliyaal]

pistolols wrote...
but then why even introduce this concept of systems getting blow'd up in arrival like that?  Just to confuse us?  Some kind of accidental incorrect foreshadowing?  lol.  Or are we meant to wonder if it could go either way?

Lots of something something everyone. 

[Kamuchi]

What about the 2 dozen massive shockwaves that would rip the ships apart if they traveld into any direction?

[Vhalkyrie]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

If the mass relays blew like we were shown in Arrival, then all of those fleets have no homeworld to return to.

No one would be thanking Shepard for his/her supposed 'sacrifice'.

A space magic scenario would have to be invented in order to cover up why we are shown a Mass Relay blowing up in Arrival (and is written in the codex) doesn't do so at the end of ME3.

Because they're not the same kind of blow up. Really, this isn't a stretch; if they were the same kind of blow up, the the Citadel would have blown up so big that it would have completely smashed Earth into tiny pieces. Remember, the Citadel is in reality the largest mass relay in the galaxy.

Apparently you missed the part where the Citadel is shown breaking apart.  Even if I bought your conclusion that the 'explosions' are 'different' (which I don't), the Citadel crashing into Earth would destroy life on the planet with the catastrophic fallout of 7 billion metric tons of debris.

Extinction level event.

[Zolt51]

Nice work a.m.p and Orthodox Infidel. Your distance estimates look right on point.

What I'm more concerned is how you came up with such a high figure for FTL travel speed. The codex says a normal ship does about 12 LY/day. That's already 4380 times C. The Normandy can do up to 30 LY/day. Travel time would be much greater at these speeds. Not insurmountably so, but greater.

Modifié par Zolt51, 03 avril 2012 - 03:55 .

[Extort]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

Extort wrote...

Its not just fuel, maintenance thats the issue... what about food? Sanity?

Cryonics.

And the navigation in deep space?

Telescopes.

What about power for all the computers and equipment?

Fusion.

This isn't halo... there is no cryo facilities on ships.
You dont pilot a ship with telescopes...
And fusion? You need energy for that as well and theres not enough equipment to get that anyway when all the ships left are battered and exhausted

[gekko513]

How can you not accept that the mass relay explosion is of a different kind? What would be the point of making a design for the crucible throughout the cycles if all it did was use the mass relays to wipe out everything?

[Zolt51]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

As I recall, using FTL drives on the galaxy map burned quite a bit of fuel just going from star system to star system. Nevermind traveling from star cluster to star cluster.

There's a lot of gameplay and story segregation there, but as the OP said, "engineering problem."

Yes that's a gameplay thing. In space propulsion the amount of fuel you needs depends on how fast you want to go, not on the distance. All the ME core does is to create a bubble where mass is greatly reduced and the speed of light is much faster. Then making your ship go forward is just a matter of conventional propulsion and that's where He-3 is used (As a fusion fuel I assume)

[JasonShepard]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Apparently you missed the part where the Citadel is shown breaking apart.  Even if I bought your conclusion that the 'explosions' are 'different' (which I don't), the Citadel crashing into Earth would destroy life on the planet with the catastrophic fallout of 7 billion metric tons of debris.

Extinction level event.

The Citadel could well just be in orbit, in which case most of it would stay in orbit after blowing up. True, it would be a major clean up operation for the Earth to deal with, but no worse than anything else after a Galactic War. You need a lot of force, in a specific direction, to properly knock something out of orbit and down onto the ground.

Modifié par JasonShepard, 03 avril 2012 - 03:22 .

[Warp92]

Extort wrote...

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

Extort wrote...

Its not just fuel, maintenance thats the issue... what about food? Sanity?

Cryonics.

And the navigation in deep space?

Telescopes.

What about power for all the computers and equipment?

Fusion.

This isn't halo... there is no cryo facilities on ships.
You dont pilot a ship with telescopes...
And fusion? You need energy for that as well and theres not enough equipment to get that anyway when all the ships left are battered and exhausted

I'd like to mention that there is no Friction in space.. so if  you accelerate to to 100,000 mph you will stay at 100,000
mph until acted on a on outside force IE a Sun or Planet. How could I forget blackholes   ( there alot of suns in the

galaxy btw 300±100 billion ) so.. there could and will likely be a fuel problem.

Modifié par Warp92, 03 avril 2012 - 03:25 .

[Orthodox Infidel]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Apparently you missed the part where the Citadel is shown breaking apart.  Even if I bought your conclusion that the 'explosions' are 'different' (which I don't), the Citadel crashing into Earth would destroy life on the planet with the catastrophic fallout of 7 billion metric tons of debris.

Extinction level event.

It is not certain at all that those pieces will fall to Earth before someone can push them into a more stable orbit. To know that would require knoweldge about how stable the Citadel's orbit was to begin with, which is knowledge we don't actually have.

Also, I know you don't buy the "explosions are different" story, but the Citadel can't cause an extinction level event by falling into Earth if it's also blown up in a giant supernova. This is a contradiction. Contradictions are problems because they can be used to prove anything, no matter how ludicrous or unrelated, as true. I know you don't necessarily believe this entire set of contradictory statements, but other people do, so I'm compelled to point that out.

[nasamutalisk]

a.m.p wrote...

And I'm not giving up on Mass Effect because of one broken ending.

Finally someone who agrees with me

[Orthodox Infidel]

Zolt51 wrote...

Nice work Orthodox Infidel. Your distance estimates look right on point.

What I'm more concerned is how you came up with such a high figure for FTL travel speed. The codex says a normal ship does about 12 LY/day. That's already 4380 times C. The Normandy can do up to 30 LY/day. Travel time would be much greater at these speeds. Not insurmountably so, but greater.

Umm, they aren't my distance estimates, they're a.m.p's.

Are you sure Normandy does 30 LY/day? I thought that's Reaper speed.

[Vhalkyrie]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

Also, I know you don't buy the "explosions are different" story, but the Citadel can't cause an extinction level event by falling into Earth if it's also blown up in a giant supernova. This is a contradiction. Contradictions are problems because they can be used to prove anything, no matter how ludicrous or unrelated, as true. I know you don't necessarily believe this entire set of contradictory statements, but other people do, so I'm compelled to point that out.

An explosion of the magnitude to destroy 7 billion metric tons would be enough to change orbit.  An explosion is radial, so some of that debris will descend through Earth's atmosphere.

Mass relays go supernova, it's all moot point - the Sol system is cosmic dust.  If there is space magic that says the mass relays don't explode, then the Citadel still does and life on Earth is extinct.

[pistolols]

Keep in mind that with control choice the citadel does not blow up. It is seen closing back up, in fact.

That would be interesting if there were some kind of major implications with the citadel blowing because it would really make the choices different (like shep breathing with destroy).

[tucsondoug]

Now I'm all for a new ending that doesn't require lots of analysis and assumptions to terse out the survival of galactic civilization, but I'm gonna play devil's advocate a bit. What about the Geth, assuming you saved them, and the red space magic doesn't destroy them. They seemed to be miracle workers when it comes to rebuilding, looking at what they did for Rannoch. How long would it take them to get the infrastructure on earth up and running again? Think they can get farms and hydroponic bays built and producing in time to avert the mass starvation looming over the fleets? If so, they could probably help with constructing new relays or faster ships afterwards too.

[Orthodox Infidel]

Extort wrote...

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

Extort wrote...

Its not just fuel, maintenance thats the issue... what about food? Sanity?

Cryonics.

And the navigation in deep space?

Telescopes.

What about power for all the computers and equipment?

Fusion.

This isn't halo... there is no cryo facilities on ships.

Really?

What are these?


Who is this, what is this apparatus she is in, what was she doing there, and where was this apparatus located?



What did EDI say about transporting the Krogan from Tuchanka to Palaven?

You dont pilot a ship with telescopes...

No, you pilot it with people. Who navigate based upon what they see.

And fusion? You need energy for that as well and theres not enough equipment to get that anyway when all the ships left are battered and exhausted

Protip: Normandy has a fusion plant. It's never mentioned as being a novel part of the ship, so it's safe to assume that building fusion plants is normal and easy. There's no reason to think you need a ship for it when you can just build new ones, after all they invented fusion in this universe before Faster Than Light drive.

Modifié par Orthodox Infidel, 03 avril 2012 - 03:35 .

[Controller_B]

If FTL travel was that great, they wouldn't have needed mass relays in the first place. The problem is with discharging the built up static electricity. Unless you have some mapped routing that allows you to stop every 2 days on a years long journey, then you're pretty much on a suicide mission.

Yes, the writer's could write their way out of this, but that crap all over their own narrative. And crapping on their narrative is how we got to this point in the first place.