251 réponses à ce sujet

[SentientSurfer]

How do your FTL times jive with relativity? It takes 30yrs to the people on the ships, but won't that be 100s of years to people stranded on their homeworlds? O_o

[Heliosas]

Good effort OP

[Zolt51]

Vhalkyrie wrote...
Apparently you missed the part where the Citadel is shown breaking apart.  Even if I bought your conclusion that the 'explosions' are 'different' (which I don't), the Citadel crashing into Earth would destroy life on the planet with the catastrophic fallout of 7 billion metric tons of debris.

Extinction level event.

Before I will take you seriously you will have to prove that
A) The citadel pieces *will* fall to earth in short order.
They will fall with enough velocity to cause extinction level event. Mass is known (7 billion tons, give or take) but velocity is more important here.

Actually I'll spare you the trouble.  I already ran these numbers. There's 2 theories.
A) The citadel was orbiting earth in normal, low earth orbit (approx 20km/s). In this case the pieces will stay up and keep orbiting. Orbits may or may not be unstable. Orbital decay will happen but unless it's much lower than 100km decay can take years or decades, or else we couldn't keep the ISS up.

IF there is an impact at this speed it would certainly be a major disaster, but still short of the dinosaur extinction event by a factor of 50-100. If it crashed on London the UK and a good part of France/Netherlands would be devastated but there may not be long lasting global consequences.

The citadel was maintained artifically in a stationary position over london. Starting velocity is 0 relative to the Earth. I'm assuming altitude is comparable to the ISS (views of earth look similar) so 120 km. I find this somewhat unlikely, but in this case the citadel would fall down on London, in matter of 3 to 4minutes (can't account for atmosphere's drag, sorry). Terminal velocity would be around 3km/s max (less the atmosphere's drag). In that case the impact energy would be 44 times less. In the ballpark of Mt Krakatoa eruption, several times the biggest nukes ever tested. London and everything within 100 km or so would be utter toast. The rest of the world should be OK.

I'm tempted to rule B out altogether because we see Shepard surviving the ending. He's either beamed back to London or still on the ruined citadel which is not possible in ( unless less than 3 minutes have elapsed and the citadel is *just* about to crash.

Warp92 wrote..

I'd like to mention that there is no Friction in space.. so if  you accelerate to to 100,000 mph you will stay at 100,000 
mph until acted on a on outside force IE a Sun or Planet. How could I forget blackholes [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/pinched.png[/smilie]  ( there alot of suns in the

galaxy btw 300±100 billion ) so.. there could and will likely be a fuel problem.

Quite the opposite. It means that fuel use depends on maximum speed desired, distance travelled factors out.

[Warp92]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

Extort wrote...

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

Extort wrote...

Its not just fuel, maintenance thats the issue... what about food? Sanity?

Cryonics.

And the navigation in deep space?

Telescopes.

What about power for all the computers and equipment?

Fusion.

This isn't halo... there is no cryo facilities on ships.

Really?

What are these?


Who is this, what is this apparatus she is in, what was she doing there, and where was this apparatus located?



What did EDI say about transporting the Krogan from Tuchanka to Palaven?

You dont pilot a ship with telescopes...

No, you pilot it with people. Who navigate based upon what they see.

And fusion? You need energy for that as well and theres not enough equipment to get that anyway when all the ships left are battered and exhausted

Protip: Normandy has a fusion plant. It's never mentioned as being a novel part of the ship, so it's safe to assume that building fusion plants is normal and easy. There's no reason to think you need a ship for it when you can just build new ones, after all they invented fusion in this universe before Faster Than Light drive.

full of so much win, also it is mentioned that a lot protheans were cyrogenically frozen ( including Javik ) 

[Gerudan]

Where would these large fleets even get the fuel from? Most Depots and probably most industrial compounds that could produce fuel are destroyed or badly damaged. Maybe a handful of ships would be able to do the trip, but hundreds or even thousands? That would probably be very difficult even if the whole galactic supply infrastructure would still be intact.

[Zolt51]

SentientSurfer wrote...

How do your FTL times jive with relativity? It takes 30yrs to the people on the ships, but won't that be 100s of years to people stranded on their homeworlds? O_o

From the Codex relativity simply doesn't apply here, or not much. Mass effect fields lowers the mass of everything by a factor of X, and conversely increases C lcoally by a factor of SQRT(X). That means that within the mass effect field, they are still traveling slower than light so relativity does not necessarily have a huge effect.

But I beg you, let's not take this further. Relativity is difficult enough as it is, if we try to apply it to an entirely fictional, FTL travel context, I'm afraid the whole thing will blow up in our faces.

[a.m.p]

[quote]Orthodox Infidel wrote...

[quote]Extort wrote...

Its not just fuel, maintenance thats the issue... what about food? Sanity?[/quote]

Cryonics.

[quote]And the navigation in deep space?[/quote]

Telescopes.

[quote]What about power for all the computers and equipment?[/quote]

Fusion.

*snip*


[quote]
And fusion? You need energy for that as well and theres not enough equipment to get that anyway when all the ships left are battered and exhausted
[/quote]

Protip: Normandy has a fusion plant. It's never mentioned as being a novel part of the ship, so it's safe to assume that building fusion plants is normal and easy. There's no reason to think you need a ship for it when you can just build new ones, after all they invented fusion in this universe before Faster Than Light drive.
[/quote]
[/quote]
When I was talking about all of this being engineering problems I was thinking about that kind of possible solutions.

It really is up to the writers at this point, it's their universe, they can make it work. It won't be genius level of storytelling, but we're in damage control mode here.

[quote]Controller_B wrote...
Yes, the writer's could write their way out of this, but that crap all
over their own narrative. And crapping on their narrative is how we got
to this point in the first place.[/quote]

Not necessarily. If they take their time and approach this problem carefully, it could be done, I think.


count_4, good point about the citadel explosion. I think that cutscene suffers from the same problem as everything else in the ending. They did not mean to imply exctinction level events, they simply didn't think this through.

Modifié par a.m.p, 03 avril 2012 - 03:54 .

[Zolt51]

Gerudan wrote...

Where would these large fleets even get the fuel from? Most Depots and probably most industrial compounds that could produce fuel are destroyed or badly damaged. Maybe a handful of ships would be able to do the trip, but hundreds or even thousands? That would probably be very difficult even if the whole galactic supply infrastructure would still be intact.

Already discussed 2 or 3 times on this thread. Harvesting helium-3 isn't very hard at all.

[The Angry One]

It's not just a case of doubling/tripling travelling times for fuel, it's that it's next to impossible.
You'll need to take a lot of fuel with you for all those ships, and equipment to set up new refineries (because the old ones are all destroyed), and supplies.

You'll need to hop between star systems and HOPE that you reach one with suitable planets in time.
No planets to discharge drive cores? You're toast. No gas giants to mine helium-3? You're toast.

For those talking about cryo facilities, having the technology and being able to use it are two different things, it's likely the vast majority of ships brought to Earth have none.
They never say what those things on the Normandy are. Even if they are stasis pods, guess what? Nowhere near enough for a full crew.

Zolt51 wrote...

*snip*

You're ignoring the fact that the Citadel uses mass effect fields to lighten it's mass.
The moment that's gone it's full mass will be applied and it will drop, hard.

Modifié par The Angry One, 03 avril 2012 - 03:59 .

[The Angry One]

Zolt51 wrote...

Already discussed 2 or 3 times on this thread. Harvesting helium-3 isn't very hard at all.

You need to build mines and refineries, which means you need to carry the resources to do so with you.
Why do you think the Reapers kept destroying them?

[The Angry One]

a.m.p wrote...

It really is up to the writers at this point, it's their universe, they can make it work. It won't be genius level of storytelling, but we're in damage control mode here.

Their universe was destroyed because the lead writer likes to stamp on sandcastles.
This was done without care or thought.

[Zolt51]

a.m.p wrote...

count_4, good point about the citadel explosion. I think that cutscene suffers from the same problem as everything else in the ending. They did not mean to imply exctinction level events, they simply didn't think this through.

Actually, I'd say it's the players that didn't think it through. The citadel blowing up does not in any way imply an extinction event. I don't know where people got the idea that if things blow up in space they will inevitably fall *down*. We wouldn't have so much space junk floating around if that were the case.

Bioware might be guilty as charged on other counts but on this one *not*. Even if the Citadel did fall straight down it wouldn't be extinction level event. Just run the numbers.

[Orthodox Infidel]

Zolt51 wrote...

SentientSurfer wrote...

How do your FTL times jive with relativity? It takes 30yrs to the people on the ships, but won't that be 100s of years to people stranded on their homeworlds? O_o

From the Codex relativity simply doesn't apply here, or not much. Mass effect fields lowers the mass of everything by a factor of X, and conversely increases C lcoally by a factor of SQRT(X). That means that within the mass effect field, they are still traveling slower than light so relativity does not necessarily have a huge effect.

But I beg you, let's not take this further. Relativity is difficult enough as it is, if we try to apply it to an entirely fictional, FTL travel context, I'm afraid the whole thing will blow up in our faces.

Not to mention that Faster Than Light in any form violates relativity anyway, because FTL is functionally equivalent to time travel. 

[Zolt51]

The Angry One wrote...

Zolt51 wrote...

Already discussed 2 or 3 times on this thread. Harvesting helium-3 isn't very hard at all.

You need to build mines and refineries, which means you need to carry the resources to do so with you.
Why do you think the Reapers kept destroying them?

The Quarians have been mobile-harvesting for centuries. You just need to harvest fuel at your starting point (Sol system), accelerate ships to required speeds then everyone jumps into cryo and let inertia do the rest. Use remaining fuel to decelerate on arrival.

You are just refusing any possible solution to humanity's problems without even trying to think them through.

If we ever face a zombie apocalypse, I don't want to be paired up with you. You're definitly the type to just sit and complain instead of scrounging for ammo!

[a.m.p]

The Angry One wrote...

Their universe was destroyed because the lead writer likes to stamp on sandcastles.
This was done without care or thought.

Definitely agree on the 'without care or thought' part. But with the level of ambiguity we currently have, if some (substantial amount) of care and thought is applied the universe could be still salvaged and to hell with the stargazer and his tales.
I think mass effect as a whole deserves that.

[CELL55]

Length is not the only problem. Who knows the height difference between each of the planets. Even if the Reaper cores are still intact, the Reapers could still be emitting indoctro-rays. And getting the cores to work would probably take a lot longer than the food supplies to run out.

[Warp92]

Zolt51 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Zolt51 wrote...

Already discussed 2 or 3 times on this thread. Harvesting helium-3 isn't very hard at all.

You need to build mines and refineries, which means you need to carry the resources to do so with you.
Why do you think the Reapers kept destroying them?

The Quarians have been mobile-harvesting for centuries. You just need to harvest fuel at your starting point (Sol system), accelerate ships to required speeds then everyone jumps into cryo and let inertia do the rest. Use remaining fuel to decelerate on arrival.

You are just refusing any possible solution to humanity's problems without even trying to think them through.

If we ever face a zombie apocalypse, I don't want to be paired up with you. You're definitly the type to just sit and complain instead of scrounging for ammo!

Only problem with that is you can't really ever have a straight path to where you want to go, there a hundreds of billions of suns and lets not forget planets and blackholes... I don't think traveling millions of miles a second will prevent you from crashing into a undiscovered star or planet .. possibly blackhole

[hippieslayer555]

id say its to much of a bad idea to use a reaper anyway as xxLDZxx pointed out wasnt a dead reaper indocrinating people in ME2?

[Orthodox Infidel]

The Angry One wrote...

It's not just a case of doubling/tripling travelling times for fuel, it's that it's next to impossible.
You'll need to take a lot of fuel with you for all those ships, and equipment to set up new refineries (because the old ones are all destroyed), and supplies.

This concern is legitimate. I don't know about "next to impossible" but it's certainly a legitimate problem to consider.

You'll need to hop between star systems and HOPE that you reach one with suitable planets in time.
No planets to discharge drive cores? You're toast. No gas giants to mine helium-3? You're toast.

I'm pretty sure the galaxy is dense enough, even in our own neighborhood, that when you're flying at 12 ly/day, you'll find plenty of stuff to discharge against. Most people are going coreward, so they're more likely to find stuff to discharge against as they go on the trip. And it could be possible to carry all necessary fuel with you without having to stop, scoop, and refine on the way; then again it might not be.

For those talking about cryo facilities, having the technology and being able to use it are two different things, it's likely the vast majority of ships brought to Earth have none.

Every Krogan brought to Earth was brought there in cryo. EDI says they can't stand space travel without being in cryo freeze, or else they'd kill each other on the trip. Considering that Hackett, Victus et al were able to coordinate the logistics of this well enough to actually stall the Reapers, we can assume that it's not an impossible challenge to retrofit more cryo pods onto ships for a one-way trip.

You're ignoring the fact that the Citadel uses mass effect fields to lighten it's mass.
The moment that's gone it's full mass will be applied and it will drop, hard.

I've seen you say this in several threads. What's your evidence for this? I assume you have some, because every other argument I've seen you make is well founded on established lore or common sense.

[Zolt51]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...
Not to mention that Faster Than Light in any form violates relativity anyway, because FTL is functionally equivalent to time travel. 

Well at least the writers made the effort of creating a loophole that makes FTL possible without downright contradicting relativity.

Note that you have examples of faster-than light speed even in our universe. Original expansion after the Big Bang was much faster than light. Likewise, Dark Energy may eventually accelerate all galaxies so that they move away from us at FTL speed.  This is permissible because it's not really the galaxies moving, it's the space between itself that's expanding.

So if mass effect fields allows you to manipulate constants as fundamental as C, yes, the universe is your oyster.

[Zolt51]

SentientSurfer wrote...

How do your FTL times jive with relativity? It takes 30yrs to the people on the ships, but won't that be 100s of years to people stranded on their homeworlds? O_o

By definition, you aren't *stranded* when you are at *home*. 

[The Angry One]

Zolt51 wrote...

The Quarians have been mobile-harvesting for centuries. You just need to harvest fuel at your starting point (Sol system), accelerate ships to required speeds then everyone jumps into cryo and let inertia do the rest. Use remaining fuel to decelerate on arrival.

You are just refusing any possible solution to humanity's problems without even trying to think them through.

If we ever face a zombie apocalypse, I don't want to be paired up with you. You're definitly the type to just sit and complain instead of scrounging for ammo!

I'm what's called a realist.
You do realise that the Quarians have relied on *barter* to gain supplies for their ships?
Their entire society is built around gaining resources from elsewhere, a Quarian upon coming of age must leave the fleet and find something of value before returning.
Hell, even Admirals do it. You find Tali on the Citadel at one point trying to negociate for supplies from the Turians.

To claim that the Quarians are self sufficient mobile harvesters is plainly wrong.
If we ever face a zombie apocalypse, I don't want to be paired up with you. I'll be trying to survive and hoard ammo, you'll be the one charging at them with a katana.

[The Angry One]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

This concern is legitimate. I don't know about "next to impossible" but it's certainly a legitimate problem to consider.

I'm considering the sheer amount of ships needed for this voyage, the Quarian flotilla alone is 50,000 ships.
Let's be EXTREMELY generous to the Reapers and speculate (I said SPECULATE NAO!) that they destroyed half of them. That's still 25,000 ships for the Quarians alone.

I'm pretty sure the galaxy is dense enough, even in our own neighborhood, that when you're flying at 12 ly/day, you'll find plenty of stuff to discharge against. Most people are going coreward, so they're more likely to find stuff to discharge against as they go on the trip. And it could be possible to carry all necessary fuel with you without having to stop, scoop, and refine on the way; then again it might not be.

In clusters it seems that actual star systems are not that numerous, hell there are a couple of systems that have no planets whatsoever and had asteroids towed in to serve as fuel refineries and outposts.
There are a lot of systems without gas giants too. I don't know how realistic that is for actual solar system formation given astronomers tend to find a lot of gas giants, but in the ME universe that's how it is.

Every Krogan brought to Earth was brought there in cryo. EDI says they can't stand space travel without being in cryo freeze, or else they'd kill each other on the trip. Considering that Hackett, Victus et al were able to coordinate the logistics of this well enough to actually stall the Reapers, we can assume that it's not an impossible challenge to retrofit more cryo pods onto ships for a one-way trip.

EDI says they were sedated, as far as I remember. Why would Turian troop transports have cryo facilities as standard?

I've seen you say this in several threads. What's your evidence for this? I assume you have some, because every other argument I've seen you make is well founded on established lore or common sense.

Common sense. A 7 billion ton space station would not be able to maintain such a low Earth orbit without using the mass effect technology that everything else uses.

[Zolt51]

Quarians are moslty seen negociating for *parts* or new ships to repair old ones. That's the whole point of the pilgrimage. Supplies are necessary in ME3 because they just fought a major battle and are preparing for another. They also need some equipment and supplies to start rebuilding Rannoch.

The Quarian fleet has relied on stealth and secrecy for centuries to protect themselves. They hang out in remote systems, and keep the location of the fleet secret. Big shipments of He-3, or even any significant purchase of Dextro food would be noticed immediately. In the novels even Cerberus didn't have an easy time finding the migrant fleet.

Show me one instance of a Quarian buying He-3 fuel from other systems and I'll wholeheartedly jump on your ship, but with what money would they even buy it? They're not exactly big exporters of anything.