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[The Angry One]

Zolt51 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Buzz Aldrin is a big damn hero.
Stargazer is a horrible, misguided and worthless addition.

Nope. Billions of people slaughtered by the reapers on Earth, that is horrible. The Normandy ending up in the middle of nowhere for no good reason, that is worthless. The stargazer scene in comparison.. that's just meh. You either like it or you don't but it's not something to get upset about.

Edit: Sorry forgot who I was talking to. You're the Angry One after all. Get upset if you want. Are you sure you don't want a cookie?

FYI I consider using my nickname in a debate as if it means anything equivalent to "I HAVE LOST THE ARGUMENT, I CONCEDE."

With that out of the way, the Stargazer caps the other horrible decisions.
It makes the lives lost meaningless. It confirms that the ending is as bleak as nonsensical as we think it is. It spits in the face of everyone who wants closure with a condescending martyr complex religious overtone of "The Shepard".
It is quite simply the final nail in the coffin of a story that just commited seppuku.

Modifié par The Angry One, 03 avril 2012 - 05:50 .

[a.m.p]

@ Ieldra2, I'll definitely take a look, I'm interested in any aftermath scenarios that involve getting out of the dark age in a reasonable amount of time.

Modifié par a.m.p, 03 avril 2012 - 05:53 .

[SmokePants]

SentientSurfer wrote...

SmokePants wrote...

The only distance that matters is the distance from Earth to Pluto. It takes a beam of light between 4 and 7 hours to travel between the final Citadel location and the Mass Relay, which is plenty of time to assess the situation, fire up some FTL drives, and outrace the burst to the relay with time to spare.

How would the fleets know that the relays are about to go bye-bye?

You mean the beam rocketing away from an exploding Citadel straight at the only way home for many of the fleets isn't enough impetus to at least exercise a bit of caution?

They don't know what will happen, but I think they would have cause to believe that SOMETHING will happen. Don't you?

Bit of advice if anyone ever finds themselves in a similar situation. Go someplace safe and THEN take a "Wait and see" approach.

Modifié par SmokePants, 03 avril 2012 - 05:55 .

[Shalewind]

SmokePants wrote...

The only distance that matters is the distance from Earth to Pluto. It takes a beam of light between 4 and 7 hours to travel between the final Citadel location and the Mass Relay, which is plenty of time to assess the situation, fire up some FTL drives, and outrace the burst to the relay with time to spare.

It's also worth noting that in the Control ending, the Citadel doesn't even fire a burst. The chain reaction is triggered by the slowly expanding energy field reaching the relay. If the speed of expansion shown was constant, then it would have taken days or weeks.

The ending was clearly not being shown in real time.

I see no reason to think it wasn't in real time, else the reapers could have easily evaded the said energy wave. Also, the Normandy is attempting to escape at FTL. Speed of light doesn't matter here, the whole thing is done at extreme relay level FTL. 

[Orthodox Infidel]

Lozark wrote...

Warp92 wrote...

Really?

What are these?

Those are beds.  Not cryo-whatevers.  Sleep pods.  The crew use them for, wait for it, sleeping.

If those are used for sleeping, then what are these used for:



Protip: The answer isn't sexual intercourse.

Modifié par Orthodox Infidel, 03 avril 2012 - 05:54 .

[shepskisaac]

The Angry One wrote...

The point was information exchange alone won't get you anywhere.

But having instant-communication still exist is ENERMOUS advantage compred to being completly cut-off. This doesn't even have to be explained. I enjoy alot of your posts, but at the same time it's obvious you just want to argue that "it's all doomed!" because you're mad at the endings in general. You argued that Quarians took every single one of the 17 million of their people to Earth, now you argue "ohh having instant-communication system still alive doesn't do anything".

The Angry One wrote...
The Normandy was intended as Anderson's command post, it probably had a few QEC pairs installed.
That doesn't mean the system is exclusively used for QEC (or do the Quarians have QEC now?)

The Council uses QEC, the Salarian Dalatrass uses it, Cerberus had the technology. Seriosuly, it is obvious that at the governemnt/military level this technology is already prevalent.

[SentientSurfer]

You mean the beam rocketing away from an exploding Citadel straight at the only way home for many of the fleets isn't enough impetus to at least exercise a bit of caution?

They don't know what will happen, but I think they would have cause to believe that SOMETHING will happen. Don't you?

Caution doesn't normally = "everyone run!" 

I'd assume the beam is going to take out reapers - not the relays. After winning the battle, I'd be hesitatnt to order an all out retreat. 

[The Angry One]

IsaacShep wrote...

But having instant-communication still exist is ENERMOUS advantage compred to being completly cut-off. This doesn't even have to be explained. I enjoy alot of your posts, but at the same time it's obvious you just want to argue that "it's all doomed!" because you're mad at the endings in general.

It's speculation that QEC is prevalent, and information exchange is nice, but what's required to rebuild is a resource exchange.

You argued that Quarians took every single one of the 17 million of their people to Earth, now you argue "ohh having instant-communication system still alive doesn't do anything".

The Quarians are based on precident. The flotilla does not seperate. Ever.
They took civilians to war before, now you claim they'll leave them on Rannoch to be eaten by random Reapers because...?

]The Council uses QEC, the Salarian Dalatrass uses it, Cerberus had the technology. Seriosuly, it is obvious that at the governemnt/military level this technology is already prevalent.

You're talking about the richest powers in the galaxy.
The Council is dead, Cerberus is dead. I don't see any proof that the Salarians have it, but let's assume they do as they're rich and hi-tech.
Okay, so. Earth and Sur'Kesh can communicate. It's something, but it just isn't enough.

[Tleining]

IsaacShep wrote...

The Council uses QEC, the Salarian Dalatrass uses it, Cerberus had the technology. Seriosuly, it is obvious that at the governemnt/military level this technology is already prevalent.

Was it ever actually stated that the Council is contacting you via QEC? Or the Dalatrass? Remember, ComBuoys still exist. It's just Anderson and (hopefully) Hackett you are communicating via QEC.

And most of the Alliance QEC Network was on Arcturus Station and is now lost.

[Lozark]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

If those are used for sleeping, then what are these used for:

Protip: The answer isn't sexual intercourse.

I believe they are called sleep pods.  I need to reread the ME1 codex to doublecheck if they do work on cryo, but I don't have access to that right now.

Also, running the cryo systems will still take fuel.  They're not free.

As an aside, wasn't QEC expensive to do and it's applications really only useful for government and military?  I think we can rule out the Quarians or most ships having it, given that the Normandy SR1 didn't have a QEC and it was top of the line.  Most of the galaxy communicated through FTL comm buouys that were routed through the relay network.

Modifié par Lozark, 03 avril 2012 - 06:05 .

[Zolt51]

The Angry One wrote...

Zolt51 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Buzz Aldrin is a big damn hero.
Stargazer is a horrible, misguided and worthless addition.

Nope. Billions of people slaughtered by the reapers on Earth, that is horrible. The Normandy ending up in the middle of nowhere for no good reason, that is worthless. The stargazer scene in comparison.. that's just meh. You either like it or you don't but it's not something to get upset about.

Edit: Sorry forgot who I was talking to. You're the Angry One after all. Get upset if you want. Are you sure you don't want a cookie?

FYI I consider using my nickname in a debate as if it means anything equivalent to "I HAVE LOST THE ARGUMENT, I CONCEDE."

With that out of the way, the Stargazer caps the other horrible decisions.
It makes the lives lost meaningless. It confirms that the ending is as bleak as nonsensical as we think it is. It spits in the face of everyone who wants closure with a condescending martyr complex religious overtone of "The Shepard".
It is quite simply the final nail in the coffin of a story that just commited seppuku.

So how about that cookie?

[Shalewind]

QEC is not the only FTL comm in the game. It's stated as a new state of the art tech. Some other FTL comm must be available prior to it for anything in the series to work. Perhaps some sort of tight FTL mass effect aided beam through the relays.

[Tleining]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...


If those are used for sleeping, then what are these used for:


Protip: The answer isn't sexual intercourse.

On the Normandy SR-1 the Pods were Sleeping Pods. On the Normandy SR-2... i don't think we ever got a Codex-Entry for it. I just assumed that some People wanted to Sleep in Pods because other Crewmembers were snoring

[The Angry One]

Shalewind wrote...

QEC is not the only FTL comm in the game. It's stated as a new state of the art tech. Some other FTL comm must be available prior to it for anything in the series to work. Perhaps some sort of tight FTL mass effect aided beam through the relays.

Standard FTL communication is done by comm buoys placed in each system that send info through the mass relays, yes.

[The Angry One]

Tleining wrote...

Orthodox Infidel wrote...


If those are used for sleeping, then what are these used for:


Protip: The answer isn't sexual intercourse.

On the Normandy SR-1 the Pods were Sleeping Pods. On the Normandy SR-2... i don't think we ever got a Codex-Entry for it. I just assumed that some People wanted to Sleep in Pods because other Crewmembers were snoring

They probably just worked from the SR-1 plans and put them in.
In retrospect we know Mass Effect engineers are good at following schematics and implementing everything in them without knowing or caring what the hell they actually do (re: the Crucible).

[Lozark]

The Angry One wrote...

They probably just worked from the SR-1 plans and put them in.
In retrospect we know Mass Effect engineers are good at following schematics and implementing everything in them without knowing or caring what the hell they actually do (re: the Crucible).

Eh, I figured they were useful if the ship had to pick up a bunch of passengers for some reason.  Although re: your point about the Crucible... <_<

[Shalewind]

The Angry One wrote...

Shalewind wrote...

QEC is not the only FTL comm in the game. It's stated as a new state of the art tech. Some other FTL comm must be available prior to it for anything in the series to work. Perhaps some sort of tight FTL mass effect aided beam through the relays.

Standard FTL communication is done by comm buoys placed in each system that send info through the mass relays, yes.

Thanks. I didn't know the lore on that one. It's good to know that all communication is good and rightly screwed after relay death too. So too with most long distance navigation too I'd imagine. Ah the warm fuzzy feeling.......

Three words: Galactic Dark Age. 

[shepskisaac]

The Angry One wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

But having instant-communication still exist is ENERMOUS advantage compred to being completly cut-off. This doesn't even have to be explained. I enjoy alot of your posts, but at the same time it's obvious you just want to argue that "it's all doomed!" because you're mad at the endings in general.

It's speculation that QEC is prevalent, and information exchange is nice, but what's required to rebuild is a resource exchange.

You argued that Quarians took every single one of the 17 million of their people to Earth, now you argue "ohh having instant-communication system still alive doesn't do anything".

The Quarians are based on precident. The flotilla does not seperate. Ever.
They took civilians to war before, now you claim they'll leave them on Rannoch to be eaten by random Reapers because...?

]The Council uses QEC, the Salarian Dalatrass uses it, Cerberus had the technology. Seriosuly, it is obvious that at the governemnt/military level this technology is already prevalent.

You're talking about the richest powers in the galaxy.
The Council is dead, Cerberus is dead. I don't see any proof that the Salarians have it, but let's assume they do as they're rich and hi-tech.
Okay, so. Earth and Sur'Kesh can communicate. It's something, but it just isn't enough.

Like I said. You will argue everything to make it look as "doom and gloom" as possible, since then you can hate more "Bioware ruined the universe completly and utterly".

[Wulfram]

The Angry One wrote...

- Dead Reapers are either fried to the point of uselessness, or... indoctrination for everybody! o/

Well, it's dangerous certainly.  But it might be worth the risk.

Not sure how indoctrination works after the reapers are gone anyway.

- Yes, the Citadel. Making the Control ending (i.e. TIM's plan, THE BAD GUY) the only workable one. What.

Well, unlike my Shepard, TIM was presumably planning to use the control of the reapers for something other than "Fly into the nearest star".  Or maybe "Fly into Darkspace until you've used up too much fuel to get back".

- The Crucible team is stranded elsewhere, last I checked.

Is it?  I guess I don't know.  Would have made sense to take a few of the experts along, at least.

[SmokePants]

Shalewind wrote...

SmokePants wrote...

The only distance that matters is the distance from Earth to Pluto. It takes a beam of light between 4 and 7 hours to travel between the final Citadel location and the Mass Relay, which is plenty of time to assess the situation, fire up some FTL drives, and outrace the burst to the relay with time to spare.

It's also worth noting that in the Control ending, the Citadel doesn't even fire a burst. The chain reaction is triggered by the slowly expanding energy field reaching the relay. If the speed of expansion shown was constant, then it would have taken days or weeks.

The ending was clearly not being shown in real time.

I see no reason to think it wasn't in real time, else the reapers could have easily evaded the said energy wave. Also, the Normandy is attempting to escape at FTL. Speed of light doesn't matter here, the whole thing is done at extreme relay level FTL. 

It's simple: if it's happening in real time, nothing makes sense. If it's not in real time, then it may make sense. That seems like a reason to me.

I don't think the Reapers were necessarily threatened by the energy wave, which was clearly expanding at well below c. People often make the mistake of trying to assign a human perspective to the Reapers. They may have been perfectly willing to accept "new orders", even if those orders were to fry them.

As for the wave catching up to Joker, the Relay accelerated the wave, just like it accelerates a ship. Ships don't have their FTL engines engaged during Relay transit (well, at least the Conduit on Ilos didn't work that way and it was based on relay design) and the Normandy was travelling slower relative to the energy wave.

The wave itself may not have even damaged the Normandy directly. It may have dissipated the relay acceleration and dropping the Normandy back into normal space violently may have disabled it.

[Orthodox Infidel]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Noticed the discussion about QE devices. I'd say quite a few ships have them. There will be no instant loss of communication between the main worlds. It will gradually be lost over time because the QE devices can't be refueled (for refueling, transport of matter between the two stations is necessary)

STOP NOW PLEASE

Sorry for the all caps but quantum mechanical misconceptions are a major pet peeve of mine. Ignoring that using Quantum Entanglement for communication is not actually possible (for reasons we don't have to get into, just like how FTL isn't actually possible) there are still some rules to be aware of.

Quantum Entanglers work by manipulating a particle in one place, which causes another particle it's entangled with somewhere else to respond to. The particles aren't "sent out" with the message, nor do they get "used up" when you send a message. In some sense, the two particles act like a traditional telphone cable; it's the medium for the transmission only. QE particles don't get used up when Shepard talks to Anderson for the same reason that telephone cable doesn't get used up when you call London from New York.

Secondly, it was established clearly in ME2 that Quantum Entanglement Communicators are a new, extremely expensive technology. I don't remember what number EDI attached to it and I can't find it by just googling, but it was made clear that they were so prohibitively expensive that it can't possibly be standard equipment. And the Normandy is special, because Anderson was having it refitted to act as his own mobile command post.

Thirdly, these things only work point-to-point. In order to call Thessia from Earth, someone had to create an entagled pair (or many entangled pairs) and split them between the two planets. That might be plausible between highly advanced worlds who have good diplomatic relations. But it also assumes that both ends haven't lost their particles someplace.

[shepskisaac]

Tleining wrote...

And most of the Alliance QEC Network was on Arcturus Station and is now lost.

But the Earth/Anderson->Normandy and Hackett->Normandy communications seem to work perfectly fine. Not to mention, Hackett was communication with Shep from the base they were building the Crucible. The galaxy's brightest minds are gathered there.

[SmokePants]

SentientSurfer wrote...

You mean the beam rocketing away from an exploding Citadel straight at the only way home for many of the fleets isn't enough impetus to at least exercise a bit of caution?

They don't know what will happen, but I think they would have cause to believe that SOMETHING will happen. Don't you?

Caution doesn't normally = "everyone run!" 

I'd assume the beam is going to take out reapers - not the relays. After winning the battle, I'd be hesitatnt to order an all out retreat. 

Retreat from what? The battle is over. And you'll have between 4 and 7 hours to rethink your position on which side of the relay you want to be on when that beam hits.

[Beliyaal]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...
Sorry for the all caps but quantum mechanical misconceptions are a major pet peeve of mine. Ignoring that using Quantum Entanglement for communication is not actually possible (for reasons we don't have to get into, just like how FTL isn't actually possible) 

For my own mollification, is the reason just the fact that it's a causality violation via special relativity, or is there another reason?

[Shalewind]

SmokePants wrote...
It's simple: if it's happening in real time, nothing makes sense. If it's not in real time, then it may make sense. That seems like a reason to me.

I don't think the Reapers were necessarily threatened by the energy wave, which was clearly expanding at well below c. People often make the mistake of trying to assign a human perspective to the Reapers. They may have been perfectly willing to accept "new orders", even if those orders were to fry them.

As for the wave catching up to Joker, the Relay accelerated the wave, just like it accelerates a ship. Ships don't have their FTL engines engaged during Relay transit (well, at least the Conduit on Ilos didn't work that way and it was based on relay design) and the Normandy was travelling slower relative to the energy wave.

The wave itself may not have even damaged the Normandy directly. It may have dissipated the relay acceleration and dropping the Normandy back into normal space violently may have disabled it.

Lol. Sorry. The "making sense" line makes me chuckle. But to your point we are discussing it so, can you at least agree that the relay accelerates the wave? I surely don't think you mean to imply the wave takes 5-10,000 years to reach some sections of space?