15 réponses à ce sujet

[Vanatos]

So ive played all of Dragon Age 3 times, loved it, however some things i am worried about.

Obviously you guys are going for 'dark fantasy', are you particularly going to expand on 'fantasy' in your expansion/sequel?

I feel a lack of alien and fantasy in Dragon Age, it feels more like Middle-Ages then Fantasy setting.

I think this has to do with the imagery (So much brown...) and a lack of really true fantasy settings (pretty much the only one is the Orzammar).

I was kinda dissapointed with the Fade in the game, here i thought the Fade being a truly alien place (in another dimension basically), you'd set up some amazing alien things in it, kinda like in Baldurs Gate 2 where you enter Bhaal's realm, or even the underdark, they were truly alien places.

But instead everything of the Fade was mostly hack and slash.

But this is the first game, hopefully your sequel will greatly expand the setting, like 10x.

[Inarai]

You might be thinking of High Fantasy settings as being the only ones. Ferelden is more of a low-fantasy style, the devs on the making-of features compared it to things like Conan the Barbarian.

[Inarai]

You might be thinking of High Fantasy settings as being the only ones. Ferelden is more of a low-fantasy style, the devs on the making-of features compared it to things like Conan the Barbarian.

Good chance I'm wrong, but it's something to think about.  Not all fanatasy setting must be of some elaborate fanatastical nature.

Modifié par Inarai, 03 décembre 2009 - 09:28 .

[Vanatos]

Humm whats the difference?



For example, i kinda hope they differentiate dwarves,elves and humans more, dwarf society was greatly done, but their character isn't different enough from humans that i felt they were really a race onto themselves.

[Inarai]

Basically? In a lower fantasy setting, you tend to see a closer period apporximation - and in darker fantasy, the fantasy elements are a part of the darkness more than anything.



Think of works like A Song of Ice and Fire.

[Zealuu]

Inarai wrote...
Ferelden is more of a low-fantasy style, the devs on the making-of features compared it to things like Conan the Barbarian.

Low fantasy is not particularly compatible with large populations of very traditional fantasy elves and dwarves who regularly interact with the human contingent of the world, and a large host of generically evil demon-like creatures who want to destroy said world because that's just what they do. The only thing remotely low fantasy about it is the isolated manner in which magic is treated, and that not just everyone can be a mage (yet, for some reason, there are mages all over the place anyway). Since you brought up the ASoIAF example, you should be aware of this already.

As for dark fantasy - Well, I suppose if persistent blood spatter on your armor equals dark fantasy, then Dragon Age is dark fantasy.

Modifié par Zealuu, 03 décembre 2009 - 09:36 .

[Inarai]

Zealuu, you should consider:



- These are ENTIRELY non-traditional dwarves and elves.

- The darkspawn are pretty much the Others - a legion of creatures killing the hell out of everything for unknown reasons? Check.

- The mages are thrown around a little more than they should be by story, but I'd say it's allowable for game design reasons.



Darkness, then, is about 2 things: Twist, and risk or consequence.



The "twist" element is when you take the standard presentation of an element: an example would be turning elves into lithe, pointy-eared creatures whih excel at poverty, and have you even looked at the way the dwarves are here?



As for risk/consequence, well, look at the mages: every magical act places them at risk of posession and transformation into monstrous creatures.

[Vanatos]

Well i have read AsoIaF



The Others are , as of now, portrayed mysteriously, they are not really like how the Darkspawn are handled



I agree their non-traditional dwarf and elves, but their still races, and races should feel different other then a model swap.



'Darkness' in any genre, is really talking about suffering.



Any story that has alot of suffering, is dark.

[Auraad]

I hope they expand the world - quickly! Ferelden and the few lore things are ... tiny tiny tiny.

[Inarai]

The Others and the Darkspawn aren't that different. You don't properly know how the Darkspawn came about, at least at the outset. You know a story that is told, but have no way to judge it as true or false - there were, as I recall, a legend or two about the Others as well.



And races being different off physiology is cheap - it's not substance. The cultural differences are substantive and meaningful.



And no, suffereing is not what makes darkness. You can have suffering without it being dark. Darkness is a question of treatment and structuring, and a large part of that is those elements I mentioned.

[Vanatos]

The cultural differences of Dwarves and Humans even in this game are not substantial, the only thing that was different is Dwarves are not religious.



Suffering is darkness, when something is dark, it means there is an overriding sense of suffering and hopelessness.



Your earlier post proves this, when you say it is dark, you highlight the elves poverty and the dwarven situation, which common theme is their suffering alot.

[Inarai]

Vanatos wrote...

The cultural differences of Dwarves and Humans even in this game are not substantial, the only thing that was different is Dwarves are not religious.

Suffering is darkness, when something is dark, it means there is an overriding sense of suffering and hopelessness.

Your earlier post proves this, when you say it is dark, you highlight the elves poverty and the dwarven situation, which common theme is their suffering alot.

Oh, it's quitee substantial.  Maybe you're not paying attention, but it's huge - night and day, really.

Suffering can be an element of a dark story, but it isn't what makes a dark story, and a dark story can exist without it.

And I highlight the twist, the alterations made that invert what you expect of a brighter tale.

[Zealuu]

Darkspawn have more in common with LoTR orcs than The Others, and both the Dwarves and Elves are painstakingly traditional. Darkspawn are a constant menace to some parts of the realm, and unlike the ethereal Others, they're purely physical in nature, functioning as baseline grunts most of the time. Adding to their LoTR heritage, they are spawned by corrupted members of the "pure" races, and they have one clear-cut leader who also happens to be the major bad guy. They even look and sound like LoTR orcs. Unlike the Others, they aren't near-mythical creatures who haven't been spotted in 8000 years - they function more like a rampaging band, and make their public appearance en masse about an hour into the story. There's not a shred of "mystical" about them.

Bioware approaches low/dark fantasy by allowing for more than token racial issues between all races, rather than the common opposites like elves and dwarves. Yet, the only thing separating the DA:O dwarves from other fantasy dwarves, is their rigid caste system. Beyond that, they remain the utterly unoriginal short, stocky, bearded, and heavily armoured warrior type, who live deep underground and mine even deeper underground. They're even plagued by darkspawn in the same way LoTR dwarves were plagued by tunneling orcs.

The Dalish elves suffer from more or less the same stereotype - xenophobic - and for that, generally mistrusted - woodsmen and hunters. The city elves represent a somewhat original take on the whole elven thing, despite having been done before by Sapkowski in his Witcher-series. The main difference is that DA's elves aren't subject to social equality with humans, they're essentially slaves and second-rate citizens.

The ASoIAF comparison is far-fetched at best, the only real similarity between the two being the historical epoch depicted and the amount of intrigue and politicking that goes on. Yet, in DA:O, the intrigue is incredibly predictable and only achieves the intended effect because the game railroads your character through it as if he or she were a complete dunce (ie. Dwarven and Human Noble origins). None of it equates to dark fantasy, and very little of it to low fantasy.

Modifié par Zealuu, 03 décembre 2009 - 10:42 .

[Vanatos]

Im curious about how a story can be dark and not have suffering as a central theme.

The only relation this game has to AsoIaF

-Night watch and grey warden
-politics

hmm thats about it, i would say magic, but magic is pretty central to the story rather then being behind the scenes.

I thought it was similar at the beginning when you encounter Morrigan and Flemeth, but then it pretty much becomes central what with circle of magi etc.

[ComputerEd]

Zealuu wrote...

Darkspawn have more in common with LoTR orcs than The Others, and both the Dwarves and Elves are painstakingly traditional. Darkspawn are a constant menace to some parts of the realm, and unlike the ethereal Others, they're purely physical in nature, functioning as baseline grunts most of the time. Adding to their LoTR heritage, they are spawned by corrupted members of the "pure" races, and they have one clear-cut leader who also happens to be the major bad guy. They even look and sound like LoTR orcs. Unlike the Others, they aren't near-mythical creatures who haven't been spotted in 8000 years - they function more like a rampaging band, and make their public appearance en masse about an hour into the story. There's not a shred of "mystical" about them.

Read the books and the codex more, the backstory on the Darkspawn is very interesting. They do not have one leader but actually a few that rise one at a time. Additionally a bit of reading shows the Arch Demon is not so much a leader but a catalyst.

As for the elves and dwarves being traditional I am wondering what tradition has the elves as a minor sub race treated as little more than animals by the other races. While dwarves have a more traditional origin they still have some nuiances that make them stand out a bit like the deep political intrigue, something most traditional dwarves would not mess with.

The games settings can be found in the Ice and Fire series. While some elements of Tolken have been used as with all fantasy, Martins work had a heavier influence on the feel of the game.

[Beertastic]

ComputerEd wrote...

Zealuu wrote...

Darkspawn have more in common with LoTR orcs than The Others, and both the Dwarves and Elves are painstakingly traditional. Darkspawn are a constant menace to some parts of the realm, and unlike the ethereal Others, they're purely physical in nature, functioning as baseline grunts most of the time. Adding to their LoTR heritage, they are spawned by corrupted members of the "pure" races, and they have one clear-cut leader who also happens to be the major bad guy. They even look and sound like LoTR orcs. Unlike the Others, they aren't near-mythical creatures who haven't been spotted in 8000 years - they function more like a rampaging band, and make their public appearance en masse about an hour into the story. There's not a shred of "mystical" about them.

Read the books and the codex more, the backstory on the Darkspawn is very interesting. They do not have one leader but actually a few that rise one at a time. Additionally a bit of reading shows the Arch Demon is not so much a leader but a catalyst.

As for the elves and dwarves being traditional I am wondering what tradition has the elves as a minor sub race treated as little more than animals by the other races. While dwarves have a more traditional origin they still have some nuiances that make them stand out a bit like the deep political intrigue, something most traditional dwarves would not mess with.

The games settings can be found in the Ice and Fire series. While some elements of Tolken have been used as with all fantasy, Martins work had a heavier influence on the feel of the game.

The only thing tradational about the Elves and Dwarves in DA:O besides the fact the Dalish are nomadic and xenophobic and that the Dwarves live in underground stone cities, is in their appearance. I don't know how ANYONE can relate "tradtionalism" in fantasy settings purely by appearance because you honestly cannot make Elves and Dwarves look that much different without completely creating an entirely new race (Warhammer and Tolkien are about the two extremes in character design for Dwarves; shorter and stockier looking humans or tiny legged extremely broad chested looking midgets).

I do have to agree with the statement of how much Darkspawn resemble orcs from LotR though. In the opening cutscene when you see the Darkspawn chasing down villagers it immediately reminded me of the scene in which the Orcs raid the village in Rohan. Everything from their armor, weapons, and even general appearance remind me of orcs & goblins (the only thing different is the more monsterous, decayed facial features, though Genlocks look a hell of A LOT like goblins).

Modifié par Beertastic, 03 décembre 2009 - 01:12 .