68 réponses à ce sujet

[The Spamming Troll]

yes, and it was pointed out on this forum LONG before ME3 was even released.

singularity is a pretty weak ass signature ability. im not sure its better then spamming throw and perma staggering. its certainly not better then stasis, which happens to be a BP available to all classes, even nonbiotics. is it wrong that stasis is a better singularity? singularity should be instacast, at the very least.

bioandes are biosplosions without needing the setup. ohhhhh, so inovative. why not grenades that produce bio-enhancement fields instead of more shiny splosions? itd be like having overpower(the proposed adept signature ability) but only in a very specific radius. itd make bionades serve more of a function to the adepts gameplay, rather then being a stupid idea.

pull/throw/shockwave all do the same thing. its like giving the engineer energy drain, overload, and overdrain. id LOVE to know how many adept players even care about shockwave. isnt barrier, stasis, and warp ammo all considered essential adept powers?

youd think easy things like this people point out on a forum about the game would be something an actual developer would be able to realize considering the game is at their fingertips. its like they were confusing their fun of the overall gameplay with the potential of being an actual adept.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 04 avril 2012 - 12:58 .

[atheelogos]

ThatDamnSalarian wrote...

Does anyone else think that the Adept's powers in SP have too much overlap? All you really need is Warp and Throw. Stasis is a nice bonus power that any class can get. Cluster Grenades are good. But everything else feels slightly redundant. Which is why I think going Sentinel is a better bet if you want biosplosions. 

Anyone else feel this way, or am I doing it wrong? Thanks!

Your doing it wrong.... lol 

[JaegerBane]

Fortack wrote...

Yeah. The problem with the ME3 Adept is the complete lack of something special. The "unique" power - Singularity - is available to everyone through Liara and her version is much better too (insta-cast = instant CC > and it cannot be dodged). Plus, with the proper evolutions, she can cast it every 2.5 seconds. There is no point to invest points into that power when you play Adept, and it also makes having Pull rather pointless (you can detonate enemies every 2.5 seconds with Liara around anyway - can't get much better than that).

Sort of. I think the biggest failing is that, much like what happened in ME2, classes moved on and the Adept was left behind. In this particular case, the ability to set off combos became a standard thing across all the classes, which in my opinion has had the same effect as giving them all Biotic Charge. Back in ME2 the true power of the Adept was that it always had the option of setting up and carrying out its own combos, something no other class could without BPs.

Singularity is a red herring. Back in ME2 the only thing it had going for it was the fact it (sometimes) worked on defended opponents - it was slow, unreliable and functionally too similar to Pull on the lower difficulties. Why on earth they chose to remove its effect on defences is beyond me, but it would hardly be the first blatantly nonsensical change bioware have made. At the very least, its a lot more reliable now.

Realistically, they should have given it Stasis. Or made Singularity work like Stasis and kept stasis as it was back in ME2. Something. The Adept is supposed to be the biotic specialist. It shouldn't play like a badly-built sentinel.

That said, I find the Adept a lot more viable now as a class. It may not have a well-designed set of powers but it seems to play a lot faster and focuses more on being walking artillery then being a singularity spammer.

[Mr. Big Pimpin]

Fortack wrote...

Yeah. The problem with the ME3 Adept is the complete lack of something special. The "unique" power - Singularity - is available to everyone

Isn't this also the case with the Engineer and Combat Drone?

[icemount]

I would rather say that Sentinel is an OP class, as You all compare Adept too. In my opinion with Adept You simply have freedom of choice using all BP's. Look at other classes, they all have like one signature power: cloak, ARush, BCharge and so on. All adept powers have different uses and are best in different situation. That said stop complaining and embrace diversity

[Fortack]

JaegerBane wrote...

I think the biggest failing is that, much like what happened in ME2, classes moved on and the Adept was left behind. In this particular case, the ability to set off combos became a standard thing across all the classes, which in my opinion has had the same effect as giving them all Biotic Charge. Back in ME2 the true power of the Adept was that it always had the option of setting up and carrying out its own combos, something no other class could without BPs.

Yeah, my thoughts exactly. In ME2 every class had its own playstyle. Sure there was some overlap here and there. The Sentinel could go warpbombing with the right squadmates, but their true strenght was tanking - and that's how I played that class - Assault Armor FTW!
It wasn't perfect, but good enough. In ME3 only the Infiltrator (Cloak) and Vanguard (Charge) have something special going for them. All the other classes are basically a collection of random powers.

Realistically, they should have given it Stasis. Or made Singularity work like Stasis and kept stasis as it was back in ME2. Something. The Adept is supposed to be the biotic specialist. It shouldn't play like a badly-built sentinel.

Seconded. ME3 Stasis should be called Singularity and there should have been another version - the "real" Stasis - that completely immobilized the target, but also made it immune to damage (like in ME1 & 2). I miss the true CC (only) powers, everything in ME3 is designed to explode the next second. That's rather dull and gets old too quickly. 

That said, I find the Adept a lot more viable now as a class. It may not have a well-designed set of powers but it seems to play a lot faster and focuses more on being walking artillery then being a singularity spammer.

Yes and no. IMO ME3 is doing the same thing DA2 did. Combat looks "better", is more intense (mostly because they increased the pace), but also rather blant. It's fun for a while, but when you get used to it and see through the cloud of smoke it isn't good. In a way you could say that ME3 has evolved into a "hack & slash" game. I don't like that. ME gameplay has always been a little "deeper" than the averange shooter - something I appreciated.

I hope Kronner and everyone else involved in "Spectre Difficulty" are able to give ME3 some of ME2's longevity. There are enough powers and weapons to be found in ME3, but, unfortunately, most are very much alike at best, or worse: redundant

[Fortack]

Mr. Big Pimpin wrote...

Fortack wrote...

Yeah. The problem with the ME3 Adept is the complete lack of something special. The "unique" power - Singularity - is available to everyone

Isn't this also the case with the Engineer and Combat Drone?

Yes, but to a much lesser extent: The ME3 Engi is the only class who can use Turrets. Tali - who can use drones - won't be available for like 50% of the game (and can die when you side with Legion). Plus her drones don't have an insane (neglectible) cooldown (like Liara's Singularity) and are not better than Shep's.

Drones are also unique. All biotic powers are designed to go boom. It's more or less irrelevant whether you use Pull + Throw or Sing + Warp. But that's more a problem of biotics as a whole although it obviously affects the Adept the most.

Modifié par Fortack, 04 avril 2012 - 04:40 .

[RedCaesar97]

It seems to me that the a lot of people really liked the Warp-bomb in Mass Effect 2 and the developers decided to make all biotics detonate. And Singularity only needed some tweaks to make it stronger and more viable in ME3, instead it was nerfed even more and Pull is almost as good or better. Liara having a better Singularity does not help.

Like a lot of other people, I think Singularity needed to be instant-cast, wider radius, last longer, and hold most protected enemies. I have seen ME3 Singularity hold protected some enemies in place, but it was Liara's Singularity and it did not always hold them reliably.

Stasis should act like ME2 or non-Bastion Stasis in ME1: Hold enemies in place but prevent them from taking damage. Not working on armored targets is fine, as most armored targets are larger, boss-type enemies (Harvesters, Brutes, Atlases, and Banshees); although Ravagers and Turrets are also armored.

Also, in my opinion:
- Adept should have Stasis instead of Shockwave by default
- Vanguard should have Throw instead of Shockwave
- Sentinel should have Stasis instead of Throw
- Shockwave should have a larger radius, but make it a bonus power instead (maybe switch Liara's Stasis for Shockwave?)

Also do not like how everything goes boom. Pull+Throw was a great combo in ME2 that only the Adept could pull off (Sentinel could with the right squadmates, but hard since squadmate's Pull was better suited for Warp bombs and not Throw). Now it just explodes, and it appears to better than Warp. I like how the developers wanted biotics to combo more, but having everything explode is too one-note.

I played as Vanguard with Pull, Charge, and Shockwave, and everything just explodes. Other than Charge (and Shockwave a pseudo-Throw), I do not think it played all that differently than the Adept would (other than Charge).

[Soja57]

I'll repost this from another thread:

Soja57 wrote...

The biotic arsenal of the Adept in Mass Effect 3 has lost its unique powers that were present in ME2. Each power had their own unique purpose (excluding Shockwave), and I utilized all of them (all 4 powers mapped to my mouse) in many different situations. Now, I can use 2 hotkeys to completely decimate enemies (with an occasional bring-up-command-menu for a third power). This change has rendered the Adept dull and straight-forward, and part of the reason is because of the insane cooldowns from weapon loadouts, and the lack of imagination when the gameplay designers designed the extended evolution branch trees.

Each power should be clearly defined around a unique purpose without overlapping with one another. For example:

Physical Force
Shockwave
- Area Effect
- Physical Force
- Combo Detonator (Throws enemies along direction of impacts in a wide radius)
- Long Cooldown
Throw
- Single Target
- Physical Force (More force than Shockwave)
- No Detonation
- Fast Cooldown

Damage
Warp
- Single Target
- Damage
- Debuff
- Combo Detonator (Damages and debuffs enemies nearby, but does not knock them down)
- Medium Cooldown

Crowd Control
Singularity
- Area Effect
- Crowd Control
- Combo Starter (Boosts the radius of detonations)
- Long Cooldown
Pull
- Single Target
- Crowd Control (Longer duration than Singularity)
- Combo Starter (Boosts the damage and force of detonations)
- Fast Cooldown

New class-Exclusive Power???
Impulse (Grenade)????
- Area Effect
- Damage (Huge bonus vs Armor + Barriers, meant more for defense stripping than dealing health damage)
- "Throws" nearby enemies towards target enemy or location to set up Area Effect powers, see the following for a visual example: http://www.youtube.c...zuKBTt3U#t=335s
- No Detonation
- Long Cooldown (or in the form of limited Grenades)

Impulse (Grenade) is a new power that adds more to the Adept's arsenal than Cluster Grenades currently do. In addition to setting up clusters of enemies to be crowd controlled by Singularity + Shockwave, Impulse (Grenade) strips the defenses of protected enemies to open up oppurtunities for biotic powers, instead of forcing the player to over-rely on squadmates or weapons like in ME2. Compare this to the rather redundant Cluster Grenades, which serve only to push enemies away (Throw + Shockwave) or deal damage (Warp).

Modifié par Soja57, 05 avril 2012 - 03:50 .

[Jon Phoenix]

Shockwave needed to be changed to a 360 degree power rather than targeted (or at least having an evolution that did that). But then again Vanguards wouldn't need Nova then. Change it to a power similar to Force Repulse from Force Unleashed.

In fact I would have liked an Adept power than required powering up (sort of like the GPS and Chakram Launcher etc.), rather than auto casting. But that doesn't fit all that well with the gameplay mechanics.

[Senario]

Actually...I would only say that there is overlap in terms of how Pull works. Maybe Shockwave but...nobody uses shockwave on Adept Shepard. Pull is so easily over shadowed by how singularity works and how powerful biotic combos are. Biotic Grenade gets a pass since it doesn't work off of the same cooldown as everything else, allowing for spam-ability between skills.

On Insanity I can't tell you how useful it is to singularity to lift the guy without protections, then biotic detonate with warp to kill him and severely hurt/kill the other guy. But as a strict Adept...You really only need Singularity, Warp, Throw, and Stasis(bonus). You can solve pretty much every problem with these skills.

The speed at which you make biotic explosions as an Adept is something that I don't think can be matched by sentinels. Though I have to say...having overload with tech armor AND Biotics makes them a bit too crazy. Overload is something that I thought could only belong to Engineers because of its usefulness.

[Fortack]

Senario wrote...

The speed at which you make biotic explosions as an Adept is something that I don't think can be matched by sentinels.

On paper - yes, in game - no.

The Adept is a gimped Sentinel only. There is nothing the Adept can do that the Sentinel cannot. Having Tech Armor active all the time doesn't change anything. Removing cooldowns completely also has no effect (they are already too fast). Check The Biotic Bomber Sentinel topic and videos to get the idea. If you think you can detonate faster (assuming there are enough enemies around to blow up) please post a video because I don't think that is possible in this game. Some passive bonuses of the Adept look good on paper but are (near) useless when you play.

[JaegerBane]

RedCaesar97 wrote...
Also do not like how everything goes boom. Pull+Throw was a great combo in ME2 that only the Adept could pull off (Sentinel could with the right squadmates, but hard since squadmate's Pull was better suited for Warp bombs and not Throw). Now it just explodes, and it appears to better than Warp. I like how the developers wanted biotics to combo more, but having everything explode is too one-note.

Exactly. It was a little telling that 'biotic combos' are considered just one of many combos, including fire combos, freeze combos etc. They've treated the whole of biotics as if it was just a tech skill, so it isn't any surprise that there doesn't seem to be much variety.

I've noticed that Pull has become more of a directional power rather than just a power to set up warp bombs - more than once I've pulled an enemy off a bridge or something and the speed they're pulled off leaves them getting insta-killed when the effect wears off as they're up in the stratosphere. Singularity seems to be persistent form of Pull from ME2, with similar projectile speed and similar effect on enemies, with ME2's slow, buggy embarrassment being absent altogether. Its similar to the Throw/Shockwave situation - one is more of direct detonator while the other is more orientated to disrupting many opponents at once. Back in ME2 Shockwave had a similar approach but its cooldown and the effects of defences rendered it virtually unusable - now, due to the faster cooldowns, its an option when faced with many opponents, but again, the differences between it and Throw are minor.

This goes back to what I've been saying - there are differences between the Adept's powers, but they're just too subtle to notice in ME3's hectic gameplay. Slight differences in how an enemy is thrown or disrupted just doesn't match up to freezing, burning and stunning.

I'm not overly bothered about the situation, however. The important thing is the Adept is now a class that also doesn't reflect a difficulty setting like it did in ME2, where its entire approach had to change on the higher difficulties due to how badly implemented Singularity was and the lack of other powers to work on defences.

The only major issue I have is that I would have preferred it if the devs had focused on having each power do a specific task, as at the moment, it feels like they designed the powers in isolation and just stuffed them altogether at the last minute.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 05 avril 2012 - 09:43 .

[Nethershadow]

Kronner wrote...

I have no idea why BioWare did not do this:

Pull and Throw = single target powers (first one set ups the bomb, the other power detonates)
-short cooldown

Warp = weakens the target (weakens armor, slows movement speed)
-medium cooldown

Singularity and Shockwave = AoE (first one set ups the bomb, the other power detonates)
-long cooldown

The way it's now, it does not matter what power you use. IMHO Adept is the worst class in ME3 (in terms of fun and variety; it steamrolls Insanity just like any other class)

I agree mostly with what you say but see there should be a few changes.

Pull and Throw = Single target only powers,
                      -Pull can setup a small biotic bomb that isnt nearly as strong as a Singularity bomb
                      -Pull evolutions should allow you to add Slam ability to it as they are far to simular already,
                        as well as doing less damage than Warp, it can stun as well (evo option).
                        This makes it a specialized and viable compared to Sing.
                       -Mid cooldowns for both
                       -Throw is long range, low damage, short cc ability.
                       -Throw can not detonate explosions

Warp = Core biotic damage power, weakens armor, exposes targets defenses and possibly add a DoT evolution.
                -Only ability that can cause major biotic bomb detonations when used with Singularity
                -Small biotic bomb when used with Pull.
                -Evo´s would be exposure/weakness or damage upgrades / dot
                -Short cooldown

Singularity = Strongest CC ability that does no damage except for Warp/Sing large biotic bomb combo.
                 -Core CC ability that instant cast (combination of Singularity and Stasis)
                 -Evo´s should be bigger area/targets or Stasis effects (as like Slam, much to simular)
                 -Can be used on protected enemies like Stasis
                 -Long cooldown as it sets up your big show explosion and is aoe CC.
                 -Singularity is our class power, make it show that.
                 -At the end of duration, it violently throws enemies as if each was Push d. Evo adds damage to burst.

Shockwave = very short range cone knockback that does low damage
                 -Damage is AP
                 -Evo´s increase damage or kb
                 -Short cooldown (Also fits with Adept melee attack)

This would make the crazy biotic explosions appropriate and not fast spammed as they can be now. Gives every power a purpose and use, as well as having to choose how to set things up.

So you can affect sheilded targets on long cd but it doesnt affect thier defenses, Warp is your bread and butter attack that is also your biotic explosion detonator, Pull is single target but offers some cc abilities on med cd, ext.

Power cd as well should not be modified by weight, they should be static like they were in ME2.

The biotic explosions this time around are just crazy and everything creates them which doesnt make sense to me. 

EDIT: Actually just get rid of Shockwave as Push can do what it does, and an evo to push for the dual push makes it semi aoe sorta.

Instead give Warp Ammo, not sure why this power was never given base to Adepts, just makes so much sense.

Modifié par Nethershadow, 06 avril 2012 - 12:16 .

[Soja57]

Nethershadow wrote...

I agree mostly with what you say but see there should be a few changes.

....

EDIT: Actually just get rid of Shockwave as Push can do what it does, and an evo to push for the dual push makes it semi aoe sorta.

Instead give Warp Ammo, not sure why this power was never given base to Adepts, just makes so much sense.

I agree with a majority of your changes (see my post from before), except that Shockwave gets the short end of the stick (again). Shockwave still has potential in the Adept's arsenal, it's just that the way it was designed as a jack-of-all-trades power makes it redundant.

This still doesn't address the issue of the Adept's other class-exclusive power, Cluster Grenades. That power doesn't add anything particularly new to the Adept's arsenal, except a Warp-Throw hybrid capable of being used without cooldowns. Which renders a majority of the Adept's already redundant powers even more redundant. However, replacing it with Impulse Grenades (again, refer to my post from before) will add a unique power that strips defenses (something the Adept has trouble with), and aids in setting up clusters of enemies for biotic combos. It effectively covers the Adept's weakness (shields should still pose a major challenge, however) while further strengthening the Adept's ability to crowd control and execute biotic combos.

[Troubleshooter11]

termokanden wrote...

Hah yeah nothing better than watching your enemies float away towards outer space. Gives a whole new meaning to "space trash".

Or Space Magic..

[tonnactus]

Maze of Torment wrote...

I agree with you, it's like ME1 where some classes were made redundant or diminshed their value due to overlapping powers, e.g. Infiltrator w/AI hack bonus made Engineer redundant,

Wrong for everyone who liked to play as a support class and choose medic.

[tonnactus]

Jestina wrote...

I'm not even sure what the purpose of warp is in ME3 other than setting off biotic boom.

Warp-Throw is the only combination that worked on enemies like atlas mechs,banchees and brutes.(not counting reave and dark channel,because those are bonus powers)
On normal enemies,this combo is a waste.(pull + throw are better there)

[tonnactus]

Fortack wrote...

Yes, but to a much lesser extent: The ME3 Engi is the only class who can use Turrets. Tali - who can use drones - won't be available for like 50% of the game (and can die when you side with Legion). Plus her drones don't have an insane (neglectible) cooldown (like Liara's Singularity) and are not better than Shep's.

Talis Drones have a cooldown of 4 seconds(neglectible) and you could give her heavy shotguns like the claymore because she isnt affected by weight...

[JaegerBane]

Soja57 wrote...
This still doesn't address the issue of the Adept's other class-exclusive power, Cluster Grenades. That power doesn't add anything particularly new to the Adept's arsenal, except a Warp-Throw hybrid capable of being used without cooldowns. Which renders a majority of the Adept's already redundant powers even more redundant. However, replacing it with Impulse Grenades (again, refer to my post from before) will add a unique power that strips defenses (something the Adept has trouble with), and aids in setting up clusters of enemies for biotic combos. It effectively covers the Adept's weakness (shields should still pose a major challenge, however) while further strengthening the Adept's ability to crowd control and execute biotic combos.

To be honest, while I agree the Adept class needs a lot of work, Cluster Grenades are really not a problem. In fact they're one of the few things in the class that are unique.

Generally, I find cluster grenades excellent for three seperate situations:
1) Obscured targets - when a centurion throws down his smokescreen, the Adept can respond by throwing down his cluster 'nades. They cover so much space and do so much damage and force that you're likely going to either kill or flush something from behind the screen.
2) Big targets - if all the nades hit the same target they'll do some unholy amounts of damage, and that is much more likely against things like Atlases and Ravagers. In fact, since they're often accompanied by minions, even if one grenade misses you're still scoring extra damage.
3) Shields - Since the rest of the Adept's powers are rubbish against shields, despite not being particularly effective against shields compared to anything else, they're great to use when you need to crack some shields.

Frankly, cluster grenades are one of the few things that *are* unique on the Adept.

[tractrpl]

Well, stasis is a great help for a soldier/infiltrator. It allows you to set up a headshot perfectly. Adepts aren't supposed to use sniper rifles, but they let you do so in ME3, so I don't see why not. It'll drop your power recharge time, but it's acceptable if you limit the number of weapons you have and their weights. I go in with a black widow or mantis, and a sub-machine gun.

[Gold Dragon]

Shockwave DOES have one power unique to the Adept.

With the right upgrades, it can go thru 10 meters of cover and still hit a target 3-5 meters beyond.  Know of any other weapon in ME 3 that can do that?

Yes, it's a bit weaker than in ME 2, but still being able to hit an enemy without them being able to hit you back is a good thing, no?

[JaegerBane]

A Golden Dragon wrote...

Shockwave DOES have one power unique to the Adept.

With the right upgrades, it can go thru 10 meters of cover and still hit a target 3-5 meters beyond.  Know of any other weapon in ME 3 that can do that?

Yes, it's a bit weaker than in ME 2, but still being able to hit an enemy without them being able to hit you back is a good thing, no?

I think this is where stuff starts becoming circular. The obvious answer is no, no weapon can do that, but in order to have a realistic cooldown on that you need to sink a lot of points in it.

Of course, then you can go weapons light to reduce your cooldown.... but then that drops *all* you cooldowns to a level that basically wipes out any real difficulty.

I both dislike and like the new Adept. My dislike is basically that, thanks to the new cooldown reductions, it becomes a non-stop explosion maker that ultimately doesn't offer any challenge, but I do like that the class is now competitive on all difficulty levels usinge nothing but powers, which IMO was originally what the whole point behind the Adept should have been about. Hell, the devs even said it in the class reveal videos in ME2.

This is the main reason why I modded out the weight mechanic and restarted my current playthrough. Now I can carry whatever weapons I want but with the cost that if I want superfast cooldowns, I have to use the correct gear and skill ranks and they'll never be quite as fast as an adept wielding nothing but a pistol.

[Rasofe]

Sentinels shouldn't have Warp. Warp is a damage biotic power while the Sentinel should specialise in Crowd Control. Pull would be better.
Also, Adepts get biotic combo bonuses from Biotic Mastery, I'm not sure if Sentinels do.

Modifié par Rasofe, 08 avril 2012 - 12:47 .

[rgtm]

I don't think so, the adepts are should be overlapped, it's power-centried class. Using only throw and warp to kill enemies is boring.
Power overlapping it's exactly the reason i love this class, if you don't like it, pick soldier or whatever you want, i suppose they got less powers.
Multiplayer isn't suffer from overlapping at all, btw.

Modifié par rgtm, 08 avril 2012 - 01:39 .