68 réponses à ce sujet

[Rasofe]

rgtm wrote...

I don't think so, the adepts are should be overlapped, it's power-centried class. Using only throw and warp to kill enemies is boring.
Power overlapping it's exactly the reason i love this class, if you don't like it, pick soldier or whatever you want, i suppose they got less powers.
Multiplayer isn't suffer from overlapping at all, btw.

That doesn't make sense. Are you sure you know what power overlap means?
It means Sentinel and Adept classes are too similar.
It's not true because Adepts can use other powers like Singularity, Shockwave and Pull that Sentinels cannot.

However, Sentinels should have pull and not Warp because, as you said, Warp + Throw is the most common (and arguably boring) playmethod for both classes right now. Sentinel Throw + Pull without biotic explosion would be wicked fun but not too OP.

[rgtm]

Rasofe wrote...

rgtm wrote...

I don't think so, the adepts are should be overlapped, it's power-centried class. Using only throw and warp to kill enemies is boring.
Power overlapping it's exactly the reason i love this class, if you don't like it, pick soldier or whatever you want, i suppose they got less powers.
Multiplayer isn't suffer from overlapping at all, btw.

That doesn't make sense. Are you sure you know what power overlap means?
It means Sentinel and Adept classes are too similar.
It's not true because Adepts can use other powers like Singularity, Shockwave and Pull that Sentinels cannot.

However, Sentinels should have pull and not Warp because, as you said, Warp + Throw is the most common (and arguably boring) playmethod for both classes right now. Sentinel Throw + Pull without biotic explosion would be wicked fun but not too OP.

I just meant that adepts is "walking artillery", like it was mentioned above my post, so this class should overlap any other partly biotic class, like vanguards or sentiels.

Modifié par rgtm, 08 avril 2012 - 01:58 .

[Rasofe]

Yeah, thats mostly true. But gameplay kinda overlaps between Sentinel and Adept right now, just watch xcalizorz playthrough.

[JaegerBane]

Rasofe wrote...
That doesn't make sense. Are you sure you know what power overlap means?
It means Sentinel and Adept classes are too similar.
It's not true because Adepts can use other powers like Singularity, Shockwave and Pull that Sentinels cannot.

I would put the same question back to you, Rasofe... when people says there is lots of overlap they don't literally mean that the powers are the same, they mean that the effective ways of playing the class are too similar. Sure, Adepts have Singualrities and Shockwaves to play with, but these don't realistically do anything the Sentinel can't do using warp bombs - they're just ways of throwing undefended enemies around.

When you factor in things like Tech armour and overload etc, you end up with the situation that the sentinel can effectively play the same as an optimal adept, but with the added defensive and offensive abilities.

This only actually matters from a powergaming perspective - personally I like using shockwave and singularity despite the fact they're not as useful as overload and tech armour.... but thats what people mean by overlap. Effective strategy, not the superficial stuff about specific powers.

However, Sentinels should have pull and not Warp because, as you said, Warp + Throw is the most common (and arguably boring) playmethod for both classes right now. Sentinel Throw + Pull without biotic explosion would be wicked fun but not too OP.

Honestly, the whole point behind Sentinels was to be able to deal with any kind of opponent at the cost of sheer specialist capability... which back in ME2 necessitated being both a biotic and a tech character, but meant they couldn't do their own warp explosions. They needed warp to handle barriers and armour.

The thing is now, Overload also works on Barriers, and Throw can be combined with Warp to create the same effect previously exclusive to Adepts to be performed by themselves. And then, of course, you have tech combos now.

Hence, the overlap.

[Rasofe]

I'd make the distinction that a power overlap and a gameplay overlap are two distinct different things and call it a day.

To that end, I'd say the Sentinel is the problem and not the Adept.

"Sentinels need to be able to deal with any opponent but not specialise in anything in particular" is EXACTLY the problem. Sentinels were a support class in ME1 and turned into a 33 % class in ME2 and 3. Luckily, in ME3 you can make the choice to skill Overload without Tech Armour so you can maximise on the following:

Throw
Lift Grenade
Overload
Cryo Blast
Passives
Special Extra (Don't know what to put here yet).

Then use pistols only because we all know that Pistols or SMG's is all a Sentinel should use, cause its not a combat class.

That is, right now the Sentinel can be forced into a 33.3 % class, OR can be turned into a Tech/Biotic Support. Probably the only class in the game that can have two distinct roles.

Modifié par Rasofe, 08 avril 2012 - 04:25 .

[JaegerBane]

Rasofe wrote...

I'd make the distinction that a power overlap and a gameplay overlap are two distinct different things and call it a day.

Neither here nor there - I was just pointing out what people meant by 'overlap'. You're right, there is a distinction, I'm just not sure how it matters.

Then use pistols only because we all know that Pistols or SMG's is all a Sentinel should use, cause its not a combat class.

I have to admit that I've never agreed with the implicit correlation between being a 'power' class witb less weapons and a 'weapon' class. Have the stereotypical 'combat' classes in ME2 had less powers in the same way 'power' classes have less weapons?

As far as I'm concerned weapons and powers should either have no correlation whatsoever, or weapons and power load are modified in the same way on a class by class basis - if an Adept is supposed to be a caster and hence have less weapons, soldiers should have less powers to compensate for more weapons.

If the weight mechanic did anything right, it was that it sorted this imbalance out. It just went too far.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 08 avril 2012 - 04:43 .

[Jestina]

Soldiers have been completely nerfed in ME3.

Sentinel was supposed to be a tech/biotics class, but master of neither. Now it feels more like a new adept class than a hybrid.

[XTR3M3]

adept was a worthless class on insanity in ME2 as nothing worked until you got all barriers, armor and shields down. Soldier is the worthless class in ME3 now....although if you give a soldier the stasis perk ability and use the stasis bubble, you can walk through just fine.

The biotic detonations.....0_o.....spamming singularity then warp....juggernaut power with the fast cooledowns of ME3.

Sentinel's tech armor is...off. the way I see to use it effectively is to use it like a tech nova. I have finally started liking the engineer class. with the drones and turrents, it kinda has a dungeon defenders class feel to it. it also makes insanity quite challenging on lower levels.

[eran5005]

We should all just be happy they got rid of Domination from ME2. It sucked most of the time and did not sit at all with the lore.
Sorry for being off-topic, but just wanted to be thankful for small mercies if we are already in a big discussion about bio powers

[eran5005]

XTR3M3 wrote...

adept was a worthless class on insanity in ME2 as nothing worked until you got all barriers, armor and shields down. Soldier is the worthless class in ME3 now....although if you give a soldier the stasis perk ability and use the stasis bubble, you can walk through just fine.

The biotic detonations.....0_o.....spamming singularity then warp....juggernaut power with the fast cooledowns of ME3.

Sentinel's tech armor is...off. the way I see to use it effectively is to use it like a tech nova. I have finally started liking the engineer class. with the drones and turrents, it kinda has a dungeon defenders class feel to it. it also makes insanity quite challenging on lower levels.

I didn't try soldier on SP, but in MP he's a DPS beast if you max out Adrenaline rush and frag granades - so saying he's worthless is factually not true...and since SP characters are about 20 times stronger than MP i'm pretty sure Soldier shep can be pretty damned effective.
Soldier class is worthless throughout the series because he is super boring to play.

[Rasofe]

XTR3M3 wrote...

adept was a worthless class on insanity in ME2 as nothing worked until you got all barriers, armor and shields down. Soldier is the worthless class in ME3 now....although if you give a soldier the stasis perk ability and use the stasis bubble, you can walk through just fine.

The biotic detonations.....0_o.....spamming singularity then warp....juggernaut power with the fast cooledowns of ME3.

Sentinel's tech armor is...off. the way I see to use it effectively is to use it like a tech nova. I have finally started liking the engineer class. with the drones and turrents, it kinda has a dungeon defenders class feel to it. it also makes insanity quite challenging on lower levels.

You have got to be joking.
Not only did I not get the Stasis ability because that would break the Soldier into some kind of random biotic guy, I played Soldier - on insanity - as my first playthrough, and have played soldier on Silver difficulty on MP since the demo came out. The Soldier is great. Between not having to rely on casting powers ( Adrenrush lets you also fire a concussive shot, works perfectly) and having both Incindiary and Disruptor ammo, the class is great for gameplay. I didn't have any problems, and it was my FIRST playthrough.

Edit: As to whether its boring to play, I personally don't think so. "Just Guns" is fine. Not saying I don't play other classes like Infiltrator and Adept, but Soldier is still my favourite. Besides, Adrenrush + Fortification (purged) creates the most highdamage melee combatant ever. Try it out.

I don't think any of the classes were ever worthless, except maybe the Engineer (never really immersed myself into the class properly, maybe).

Modifié par Rasofe, 08 avril 2012 - 09:17 .

[Abraham_uk]

All classes overlap. Yes they all do.

Adept overlaps with sentinels and vanguards.
Engineer overlaps with sentinels and infiltrators
Soldier overlaps with vanguards and infiltrators
Vanguard overlaps with adepts and soldiers
Infiltrator overlaps with engineers and soldiers

Specialists have six flavour associated skills (including two unique skills)
Hybrids have four overlapping skills and two unique skills

There are no redundant classes. Each class has it's own set of strengths and weaknesses.

The only issue here is the inability for a player to create their own class as they see fit.

As far as I'm concerned each class has its own unique identity.

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 08 avril 2012 - 09:22 .

[Fortack]

Abraham_uk wrote...

There are no redundant classes. Each class has it's own set of strengths and weaknesses.

The only issue here is the inability for a player to create their own class as they see fit.

As far as I'm concerned each class has its own unique identity.

Sentinel: Biotic bomber + (Overload + Cryo = tech bursts) + tech armor.
Vanguard: Biotic bomber + Ammo power specialist + (Charge + Nova = invincibility)
Adept: Biotic bomber only

The ME3 Adept has nothing worth playing it for, you can do all they can do AND have plenty of other stuff to toy with when you pick one of the other 2 biotic classes. If Bioware had removed the class no one would have missed anything (gameplay wise). They are a redundant class in that regard and that isn't opinion but plain simple fact.

[Rasofe]

You play Vanguard as a Biotic Bomber? Seriously?
That said, the Sentinel should certainly not be a biotic bomber. If it were up to me I'd make Adepts the only class able to make biotic explosions. The other classes can only use biotic combos for "pull/throw" sort of stuff.

[Fortack]

Rasofe wrote...

You play Vanguard as a Biotic Bomber? Seriously?
That said, the Sentinel should certainly not be a biotic bomber. If it were up to me I'd make Adepts the only class able to make biotic explosions. The other classes can only use biotic combos for "pull/throw" sort of stuff.

You do know that everytime you use Charge (or Nova) you (can) detonate, right?

Liara gives you a 2.5 sec Sing to detonate (or Warp when target doesn't have a red bar); Javik and Kaidan are equally useful. It's boom boom boom all the time. Or you can setup your own combo with Pull (or Reave, Stasis, Dark Channel bonus power) and detonate with Charge, Nova, or Shockwave. Vanguards can (and should - if you don't intend to gimp yourself deliberately) bomb just as good as Adepts can (if not better - they don't need cover when their shields are down).

[Rasofe]

Hmm, no I didn't know that.
Seems a bit overpowered if you ask me.

[Abraham_uk]

Fortack wrote...

Abraham_uk wrote...

There are no redundant classes. Each class has it's own set of strengths and weaknesses.

The only issue here is the inability for a player to create their own class as they see fit.

As far as I'm concerned each class has its own unique identity.

Sentinel: Biotic bomber + (Overload + Cryo = tech bursts) + tech armor.
Vanguard: Biotic bomber + Ammo power specialist + (Charge + Nova = invincibility)
Adept: Biotic bomber only

The ME3 Adept has nothing worth playing it for, you can do all they can do AND have plenty of other stuff to toy with when you pick one of the other 2 biotic classes. If Bioware had removed the class no one would have missed anything (gameplay wise). They are a redundant class in that regard and that isn't opinion but plain simple fact.

Adepts have more different types of setups for biotic detonations than any other class.
They have more ways to rag doll an enemy foe than any other class (you don't always have to detonate every ragdoll effect you know).
Without the adept I would certainly feel let down by bioware.

[JaegerBane]

Abraham_uk wrote...
Adepts have more different types of setups for biotic detonations than any other class.
They have more ways to rag doll an enemy foe than any other class (you don't always have to detonate every ragdoll effect you know).
Without the adept I would certainly feel let down by bioware.

I would point out that Fortack is speaking purely from an optimal standpoint - obviously, the Adept has 1001 ways of ragdolling and CC'ing enemies - in fact, that is what this whole thread is about.

From an optimal point of view having all these different ways of doing the same thing doesn't sit well. Those of us who play largely for style and flavour, however, see no issue with such overlap.

As far as I'm concerned the cluster 'nades and new duration Warp-Throw bombs plug the gap left in the Adept's traditional issues with shields - beyond that, I'm not bothered.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 09 avril 2012 - 07:49 .

[Rasofe]

I'll say this much - in Multiplayer I played Human Sentinel intentionally not skilling Warp on bronze, but when I went to Silver I had to skill Warp because otherwise I was so useless when I died no one bothered to revive me.

That said, I always thought Throw/Overload would be better for a Sentinel than Warp/Throw so that I'd be playing more support and less biotic bombing. As of now, no such Sentinel kit exists in multiplayer.

In singleplayer this is not an issue whatsoever, because you can chose whatever you want. HOWEVER:
Does anyone have a decent suggestion for a Sentinel's bonus power? I can't make up my mind on this. I'm currently sitting with Stasis but I feel bad about it.

Currently, my Sentinels' kit is:

Throw,
Lift Grenades,
Overload
CryoBlast
Stasis

Note the lack of Tech Armour or Warp.

I REALLY would've preffered to get Neural Shock back. I've always imagined my Sentinel Shepard to be an M.D. (with a little biotic aptitude). This has reflected in the playthrough which follows mostly snobby dialogue but all the Right (to the best of my knowledge) decisions. But since that's not possible, what Bonus Power is especially viable for a Sentinel?