It is art, but it's commercial art, which means it can be altered without losing its standing as "commercial art." Comparing Mass Effect to an operating system is almost as dumb as comparing it to a Picasso.
It is not Art.
Débuté par
tjc2
, avril 03 2012 05:38
Retour en haut
#227
Posté 03 avril 2012 - 10:44
avonkorff
-
- Members
- 22 messages
This recurring theme of yours "mass media =/= art production" leads me to believe you do not understand what I am saying by mass media art production.
Mass media refers collectively to all media technologies that are intended to reach a large audience via mass communication. Broadcast media (also known as electronic media) transmit their information electronically and comprise television, film and radio, movies, CDs, DVDs and some other devices like cameras and video consoles.
Therefore, mass media art production refers to a (in respect to games) developers artistic intent to create a piece (game) that will be experienced by the masses (gamers) and will be disseminated to said group (gamers) by electronic means (digital download) or physical means (brick and mortar stores or online big-box orders) for a cost to support further artist endeavors and to allow the developer the ability to survive, and create more pieces (games).
Mass media formats can support artist endeavors.
It is evident that your definition of art is innately narrow...considering the fact that it seems you believe that if money changes hands to experience what began as an artistic endeavor, the final product of said artistic endeavor can no longer be called art, but must be qualified as a commodity. I believe that this is an inherently flawed view, and reduces an alarming amount of perceived "art" to your definition of "commodity".
There is really no point in carrying on this discussion if the end game is always going to be "Did you pay money for the right to experience it? Okay it's not art". This obviously means not one video game, piece of art in a museum with an entrance fee, film, or record album is a work of art...which, as stated, is both alarming and nearsighted.
The OP (as the person above me stated) ludicrously compared ME3 to an operating system...and if the main voice for ME3 as a commodity defines art int he way I've restated above....then.....
/thread
*edited for clarity*
Mass media refers collectively to all media technologies that are intended to reach a large audience via mass communication. Broadcast media (also known as electronic media) transmit their information electronically and comprise television, film and radio, movies, CDs, DVDs and some other devices like cameras and video consoles.
Therefore, mass media art production refers to a (in respect to games) developers artistic intent to create a piece (game) that will be experienced by the masses (gamers) and will be disseminated to said group (gamers) by electronic means (digital download) or physical means (brick and mortar stores or online big-box orders) for a cost to support further artist endeavors and to allow the developer the ability to survive, and create more pieces (games).
Mass media formats can support artist endeavors.
It is evident that your definition of art is innately narrow...considering the fact that it seems you believe that if money changes hands to experience what began as an artistic endeavor, the final product of said artistic endeavor can no longer be called art, but must be qualified as a commodity. I believe that this is an inherently flawed view, and reduces an alarming amount of perceived "art" to your definition of "commodity".
There is really no point in carrying on this discussion if the end game is always going to be "Did you pay money for the right to experience it? Okay it's not art". This obviously means not one video game, piece of art in a museum with an entrance fee, film, or record album is a work of art...which, as stated, is both alarming and nearsighted.
The OP (as the person above me stated) ludicrously compared ME3 to an operating system...and if the main voice for ME3 as a commodity defines art int he way I've restated above....then.....
/thread
*edited for clarity*
Modifié par avonkorff, 03 avril 2012 - 10:49 .
#228
Posté 03 avril 2012 - 10:44
AtreiyaN7
-
- Members
- 8 398 messages
Maria Caliban wrote...
The problem is that some people still have a romantic, almost sacred view of art. If Mass Effect was art then it would be sacrosanct and above criticism. Also the creators could only be living out of cardboard boxes and subsisting on Ramen noodles.
Ergo, Mass Effect can't be art because that conflicts with their desire for a different ending.
Yeah, I agree. Some people are treating this as an either-or situation when that shouldn't be the case. As far as games go, I think it's a much more malleable and fluid field.
#229
Posté 03 avril 2012 - 10:44
wantedman dan
-
- Members
- 3 605 messages
OMTING52601 wrote...
wantedman dan wrote...
DranakShadow wrote...
Still art, even on a legal level, as of 2011.
Yes, because law is the be-all, end-all, guide of perfection.
No.
It's only 'art' insofar as it receives 1st Amendment protection. In short, so that game producers can continue to create games with age appropriate content, like nudity and graphic violence. Pornography is also 'art' under the law, though I'm not sure most of us would call the 'home video' adult vignettes 'art'. Or maybe you would, DranakShadow, in which case, ignore me
That's an important distinction you've made.
Modifié par wantedman dan, 03 avril 2012 - 10:56 .
#230
Posté 03 avril 2012 - 10:53
wantedman dan
-
- Members
- 3 605 messages
avonkorff wrote...
This recurring theme of yours "mass media =/= art production" leads me to believe you do not understand what I am saying by mass media art production.
Mass media refers collectively to all media technologies that are intended to reach a large audience via mass communication. Broadcast media (also known as electronic media) transmit their information electronically and comprise television, film and radio, movies, CDs, DVDs and some other devices like cameras and video consoles.
Therefore, mass media art production refers to a (in respect to games) developers artistic intent to create a piece (game) that will be experienced by the masses (gamers) and will be disseminated to said group (gamers) by electronic means (digital download) or physical means (brick and mortar stores or online big-box orders).
Mass media formats can support artist endeavors.
It is evident that your definition of art is innately narrow...considering the fact that it seems you believe that if money changes hands to experience what began as an artistic endeavor, the final product of said artistic endeavor can no longer be called art, but must be qualified as a commodity. I personally believe that this is an inherently flawed viewpoint, and reduces an alarming amount of perceived "art" to your definition of "commodity".
There is really no point in carrying on this discussion of the end game is always going to be "Did you pay money for the right to experience it? Okay it's not art". This obviously means not one video game, piece of art in a museum with an entrance fee, film, or record album is a work of art...which, as stated, is both alarming and nearsighted.
The OP (as the person above me stated) ludicrously compared ME3 to an operating system...and if the main voice for ME3 as a commodity defines art int he way I've restated above....then.....
/thread
I'm not going to even bother breaking down your post as the vast majority of it, I've already discussed in one form or another.
If you choose to misrepresent my argument based off of false assumptions you've made from the little discussion we've had, go right ahead. Intrinsically, your argument suffers from the same nearsightedness that you have so accused me of, all because you've chosen not to fully comprehend the argument you're making against me.
So be it.
/argument
#231
Posté 03 avril 2012 - 10:57
OMTING52601
-
- Members
- 565 messages
wantedman dan wrote...
OMTING52601 wrote...
wantedman dan wrote...
DranakShadow wrote...
Still art, even on a legal level, as of 2011.
Yes, because law is the be-all, end-all, guide of perfection.
No.
It's only 'art' insofar as it receives 1st Amendment protection. In short, so that game producers can continue to create games with age appropriate content, like nudity and graphic violence. Pornography is also 'art' under the law, though I'm not sure most of us would call the 'home video' adult vignettes 'art'. Or maybe you would, DranakShadow, in which case, ignore me
That's an important distinction you've made.
That 'art' as defined by the law has zero to do with artistry, artistic integrity, artistic vision, or artful construction, but is instead defined as a product which can be allowed the freedom to be expressed however it's creator sees fit and complying with any other state/local/federal laws in such matters?
Yeah, it is important. Because 'art' is subjective, not objective, and as such no two humans perception of 'art' will be identical, which kind of makes these arguments seem a bit circular and moot, but again that's only my opinion. Personally, if one pays for something, be it 'art' or not, it's still a commodity and subject to the laws of the free market, supply, and demand. FWIW.
#232
Posté 03 avril 2012 - 10:59
lillitheris
-
- Members
- 5 332 messages
This thread, again, shows how you're playing into ‘their’ hands by arguing the definition of art. That is, arguing against eachother, wasting effort. An actual meritful discussion might be nice, but given the volatile situation, that won't happen.
The ‘artistic integrity’ argument is well-crafted and insidious. You need to turn it around. The suits ruined the artistic integrity of the game. You want it back.
The ‘artistic integrity’ argument is well-crafted and insidious. You need to turn it around. The suits ruined the artistic integrity of the game. You want it back.
#233
Posté 03 avril 2012 - 11:02
AtreiyaN7
-
- Members
- 8 398 messages
wantedman dan wrote...
AtreiyaN7 wrote...
It's a commercial product but still a work of art. In a rather detailed post in another thread, I pointed out that many of the great works of art by Michelangelo, Bernini, etc. were actually commissioned pieces done for money. That still didn't stop anyone from considering them brilliant pieces of art. The two things aren't mutually exclusive.
And there is an arguable and substantial difference between massive dissemination of a product and commissioning its creation.
A commission is done to earn money. Prints with runs of a thousand per edition are made to earn money. Would you call a Rembrandt etching less of a work of art than one of his paintings just because it was aimed at a wider market instead of one person? There's still the obvious power and talent his prints.
In any case, ME3 is both a commercial product and a piece of art. That doesn't mean it can't be altered just because it is art. Presenting this as some kind of either-or situation just strikes me as silly.
#234
Posté 03 avril 2012 - 11:04
avonkorff
-
- Members
- 22 messages
If I couldn't fully comprehend the argument I was making against you, I would not be able to articulate the argument I was making against you. Furthermore, my assertion that your definition of art v. commodity is determined by money changing hands is directly supported by your responses to my posts. I'm not going to even bother breaking down said responses.
Either way,
Thanks Ariella, I fully agree with you. I'm sure many people see things the same way we do when it comes to the qualification of Bioware games (or Bethesda games, etc etc etc) as pieces of art based on the clear and present intentions of the creators (developers).
Either way,
Ariella wrote...
I've spent time talking to some of the people at Bioware, PMs etc....snip.....So to say these guys are just in it for the money (which is the underlying complaint) is unfair. They do have vision, intergrity and the right to stand up...snip
Thanks Ariella, I fully agree with you. I'm sure many people see things the same way we do when it comes to the qualification of Bioware games (or Bethesda games, etc etc etc) as pieces of art based on the clear and present intentions of the creators (developers).
#235
Posté 03 avril 2012 - 11:05
AxeloftheKey
-
- Members
- 343 messages
So, OP, as a future Game Designer, screw you. Stories, character designs, gameplay mechanics, and the experience of the player is artistic in nature.
#236
Guest_The Mad Hanar_*
Posté 03 avril 2012 - 11:06
Guest_The Mad Hanar_*
Guest_The Mad Hanar_*
-
- Guests
It's kinda sad, people were starting to take videos games seriously. This topic was discussed by multiple media outlets, and sometimes even Congress. We were starting to convince the World that games were an artistic medium. Now, we're trying to change that and say it's not. So much progress has been made, and people want to stomp it into the dust.
#237
Posté 03 avril 2012 - 11:06
wantedman dan
-
- Members
- 3 605 messages
AtreiyaN7 wrote...
A commission is done to earn money. Prints with runs of a thousand per edition are made to earn money. Would you call a Rembrandt etching less of a work of art than one of his paintings just because it was aimed at a wider market instead of one person? There's still the obvious power and talent his prints.
In any case, ME3 is both a commercial product and a piece of art. That doesn't mean it can't be altered just because it is art. Presenting this as some kind of either-or situation just strikes me as silly.
A commission is also a singular instance purchasing one or more works of original art.
There is not any less power and character in different works of an artist, i.e. Rembrandt. There is, however, truth in that the prints that run thousands per edition take more and more power away from that original piece.
You and I disagree on that last sentiment.
#238
Posté 03 avril 2012 - 11:07
Cadence of the Planes
-
- Members
- 540 messages
tjc2 wrote...
Mass Effect 3 is software designed to be sold/liscenced to generate revenue.
Is Windows Art, is OSX Art, is Adobe or Microsoft Office Art?
If any of the above products were (yes I know some of them are) massively flawed would it be the right, artistic choice, if Microsoft/Apple/Adobe ignored customer feedback?
Do windows OS and Adobe have a story, characters, love interests, antagonists, plot twists, endings that people love/hate/are confused by?
Does making arbritrary comparisons prove your point? Hardly.
There are so many better straw mans than the one you just put up. Nice try... wait.. not really.
#239
Posté 03 avril 2012 - 11:07
leapingmonkeys
-
- Members
- 529 messages
It doesn't matter whether it is art or not - the question is irrelevant.
Bioware/EA is *selling* it to *customers*. That makes it a *business*. First rule of business - "the customer is always right".
Bioware/EA is *selling* it to *customers*. That makes it a *business*. First rule of business - "the customer is always right".
#240
Posté 03 avril 2012 - 11:08
Cadence of the Planes
-
- Members
- 540 messages
The Mad Hanar wrote...
It's kinda sad, people were starting to take videos games seriously. This topic was discussed by multiple media outlets, and sometimes even Congress. We were starting to convince the World that games were an artistic medium. Now, we're trying to change that and say it's not. So much progress has been made, and people want to stomp it into the dust.
A few sour pusses wont change the fact that art is whatever the individual pleases it to be.
#241
Posté 03 avril 2012 - 11:08
Cadence of the Planes
-
- Members
- 540 messages
leapingmonkeys wrote...
It doesn't matter whether it is art or not - the question is irrelevant.
Bioware/EA is *selling* it to *customers*. That makes it a *business*. First rule of business - "the customer is always right".
But who is the customer? The one who hates the ending- the one who loves the ending- or the one who is indifferent? Or the one who is confused?
#242
Posté 03 avril 2012 - 11:09
wantedman dan
-
- Members
- 3 605 messages
avonkorff wrote...
If I couldn't fully comprehend the argument I was making against you, I would not be able to articulate the argument I was making against you. Furthermore, my assertion that your definition of art v. commodity is determined by money changing hands is directly supported by your responses to my posts. I'm not going to even bother breaking down said responses.
You didn't fully comprehend the argument, as evidenced by the fact that you did not include my differentiations in regard to the exchange of funds. You're making my argument unnecessarily and incorrectly narrow.
If you chose to fully understand what my argument was, you'd do what I told you and look at the hundred other posts I've made here. Instead, you'll rant.
Done.
#243
Posté 03 avril 2012 - 11:11
Cadence of the Planes
-
- Members
- 540 messages
veramis wrote...
Art is something with aesthetic value or requiring skill. I see little of either in ME3.
Disagree.
BOOM
#244
Posté 03 avril 2012 - 11:11
OkaeOne
-
- Members
- 13 messages
IGSR wrote...
Are a lot of people saying that ME3 shouldn't be critiqued because it's art? I haven't heard that one
myself, which is why I ask.
If Bioware changed the story in order avoid the financial repercussions of keeping it as is, such a move
would constitute a strong admission that ME3 is not art. In my opinion.
I think Bioware has a lot more to gain from sticking to their guns.
Not in those exact words but many pro-art/pro-ending arguements seem to be predicated on it. And it's moreso 'complain' than 'critique' afterall if someone is throwing a fit complaining about something it's hard for many to accept it as a critique. Simply, replace criticize with complain. I've read debates about how ME3 is just like a poem or movie and BW as the writer shouldn't have to change anything. Then I've seen people argue about how if BW listens to it's upset consumers then they're sacrificing their creative freedom and everything they've done. My favorite variant I've seen is that the ending is so artistic that very few can truly understand/appreciate it and thus BW shouldn't change a thing. The problem in these type of arguements is it turns ME3 into 'ART' something that is so subjective that any critique is pointless and only those with a deep appreciation for 'ART' can respect it... it becomes a very pro-Bioware (seller) stance.
I agree that if ME3 changes the story it would constitue that it's not art. Then again, I don't see it as art but a product with artistic components. BW can still add to the ending through dlc, plugging up plot holes, epilogue, giving closure, etc. without damaging or compromising it's so-called 'artistic integrity' or modifying the story. A perfect example imo is Bethesda and it's Fallout series. Fallout 3 was a great game but the ending was a bit disappointing. The critques were far less harsh than it is for ME3. Regardless, Bethesda created the dlc 'Broken Steel' that addressed the ending and gave back life to thegame despite having to build on something that many found broken. FO3 eventually ended up having a few dlc's that all did well. Their follow up game, Fallout: New Vegas, was quite successful as well.
If Bioware sticks to it's guns more than likely they won't be able to build on the success of the Mass Effect universe and perhaps some of their other titles will suffer some of the fallout. The reality is they need to be able to sell their products and they can't have dissention in it's consumer base. Sure they have every right to stick to their guns and not do a darn thing but I doubt pride is more valuable to them than sales. I also think that if they address the ending in a proper way then they're more than likely to get a boost from the gaming community. Gamers love to know that they're valued and their input/feedback is considered during development.
I don't think anyone really wants to see BW go down or suffer failure. In fact, I think It's actually quite the opposite. I think most want them to succeed with ME3 so that their future titles can be just as enjoyable and successful as the ME series as a whole. I'd love to see BW bounce back from this and create a whole new epic series... it's very possible.
Modifié par OkaeOne, 03 avril 2012 - 11:15 .
#246
Posté 03 avril 2012 - 11:23
Ariella
-
- Members
- 3 693 messages
avonkorff wrote...
If I couldn't fully comprehend the argument I was making against you, I would not be able to articulate the argument I was making against you. Furthermore, my assertion that your definition of art v. commodity is determined by money changing hands is directly supported by your responses to my posts. I'm not going to even bother breaking down said responses.
Either way,Ariella wrote...
I've spent time talking to some of the people at Bioware, PMs etc....snip.....So to say these guys are just in it for the money (which is the underlying complaint) is unfair. They do have vision, intergrity and the right to stand up...snip
Thanks Ariella, I fully agree with you. I'm sure many people see things the same way we do when it comes to the qualification of Bioware games (or Bethesda games, etc etc etc) as pieces of art based on the clear and present intentions of the creators (developers).
Welcome. Personally, I've always felt art is something experienced which has nothing to do with either commerical value or the medium it is set in.
For example, just after Return of the King came out, there was a touring show of concept art set to the soundtrack of the trilogy with Howard Shore conducting IIRC. I got tickets to see the show for my husband's birthday present. The Chicago Symphony Orchestra was trancendant. That's art.
Art gets inside a person and makes them feel. One of the reasons I would qualify ME 3 as art, is not just for the sheer beauty of some of it (darn game has some of the best graphics of a Bioware game ever) but it made me feel things. Major spoiler:
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
if one choses the Geth but doesn;t have the rep to pull a paragon, afterward Tali takes off her mask and suicides by streching out her arms and falling off a cliff. So you're there with not only Legion gone just as "we" became "I" but Tali is gone too and it hurts like hell. My eyes burned from crying.
And then there's EDI's reunion with David Archer, it's a small moment, but it shows the beginnings of her humanity "He looks much heathier". Tricia Hielfer nailed those lines, and it inspire another sort of tears as David's "thank you" is "I've been counting... how many days you extended my life". I could go on, but there are so many. Few games have ever done that to me, especially with the regularity ME 3 did. That's what elevates it to art.
#247
Posté 03 avril 2012 - 11:27
bmwcrazy
-
- Members
- 3 622 messages
Call it whatever you want.
In the end, it is just another consumer product to me. If I paid for it and I don't like it, I'll make sure to let its creator know.
In the end, it is just another consumer product to me. If I paid for it and I don't like it, I'll make sure to let its creator know.
Modifié par bmwcrazy, 03 avril 2012 - 11:28 .
#248
Posté 03 avril 2012 - 11:31
Ariella
-
- Members
- 3 693 messages
bmwcrazy wrote...
Call it whatever you want.
In the end, it is just another consumer product to me. If I paid for it and I don't like it, I'll make sure to let its creator know.
But there's a difference between doing that inn a constructive or destructive way, and it seems most 'fans' on BSN trend toward destructive.
Criticism in any thing is fine, as long as it's geared to helping make things better rather than just a complaint fest.
#249
Posté 03 avril 2012 - 11:33
Lethal Lead
-
- Members
- 37 messages
I'd say every aspect of the actual games are art, save for the coding. The audio, the visuals, the stories...I'm pretty sure that is all accepted as art, and for us, those are the main things we experience. I even feel that gameplay design could/should be considered art because it's all done to give the player a truly coherent, amazing experience, which is no small task.
For the most part, it's art. For many reasons.
For the most part, it's art. For many reasons.
#250
Posté 03 avril 2012 - 11:33
Vexia2070
-
- Members
- 260 messages
t is art, but art is not sacrosanct, it is not above revision. The argument that ART is sacrosanct somehow is naive at best. History is replete with examples that is not.
As for the Smithsonian recognizing gaming as art Americana, remember they also enshrined Archy Bunkers chair. I love the Smithsonian, but hardly think of them as the arbiters or what is great art. I wonder had they gotten feedback on ME3 what they would have done. But that too is nothing but supposition...
As for the Smithsonian recognizing gaming as art Americana, remember they also enshrined Archy Bunkers chair. I love the Smithsonian, but hardly think of them as the arbiters or what is great art. I wonder had they gotten feedback on ME3 what they would have done. But that too is nothing but supposition...
