315 réponses à ce sujet

[lillitheris]

Why? WHY? Why do you have to take the worst possible argument against the game? They want you to, so they can shoot you down.

Video games are art. Period. This is not debateable.

The problem with ME3 is that it is unfinished. Its ‘artistic integrity’ was ruined by the few people who in their hubris thought they could just invent a new ending and didn't even spend/have time to have the rest of the team review it, or add the necessary polish.

THEY ruined their own artistic integrity. We are asking it to be repaired.

[wantedman dan]

lillitheris wrote...

Why? WHY? Why do you have to take the worst possible argument against the game? They want you to, so they can shoot you down.

Video games are art. Period. This is not debateable.

The problem with ME3 is that it is unfinished. Its ‘artistic integrity’ was ruined by the few people who in their hubris thought they could just invent a new ending and didn't even spend/have time to have the rest of the team review it, or add the necessary polish.

THEY ruined their own artistic integrity. We are asking it to be repaired.

Conspiratorial.

Incorrect.

Conspiratorial.

Truth.

[Ziggeh]

wantedman dan wrote...
The grander point I alluded to was that the Windex is just as much commodity as Mass Effect 3--they both have artistic components, however, they've been "commoditized" and mass disseminated.

But for one the creative expression is integral to the function while in the other it's just there so you pick it over Mr Clean. In one the art is the commodity and the commodity is art, in the other the art is attached to the commodity. With glue.

[ForceXev]

Ziggeh wrote...

ForceXev wrote...

This is partly because when you finish a game, you are supposed to feel like you have won, but in ME3 it feels more like a defeat.  Some people claim that this is OK, it's just a new concept in video games.  I disagree, because losing when you win is a concept that will never work.

I don't know, I can recall games that ended with a sense loss or lack of control, but largely where that fitted thematically. Horror games spring to mind. But I do think the general sense of triumphalism and all round bad assery in ME made victory important, rather than it being vital to the medium.

Perhaps... I'd love to see an example of a game that makes this concept work.  Usually, you get a kind of mixed ending.  A bittersweet victory.  Something like you save the day, but your character dies.  I think that's what Bioware was going for, but they missed the mark because they effectively had him destroy the galaxy in order to save it.

Winning and losing aside, my point is that the "art" in ME3 is getting in the way of the game (entertainment, enjoyment, fun), and the game must come first.  Therefore, while art is normally considered untouchable, in this case you can touch it all day long because it is breaking the game.

[samurai crusade]

This topic comes up at least twice a day. Anywho my two cents. The story, the visuals, the characters, the blah blah etc etc. it's all art. I'm sorry you had to buy a box of tissues or fix your wall after the ending. The fact remains that video games are works of modern art. The fact that it is commissioned and altered and stripped does not change the fact that it is a work of art. Take a step back. Embrace eternity. And look at the game from a fresh set of eyes and you'll see how each level design is visually amazing.

I'm going to print off all of the thread titles on this topic and form my own collage piece of art and title it. I'll call it. "Repetition or Consensus"

[wantedman dan]

Ziggeh wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...
The grander point I alluded to was that the Windex is just as much commodity as Mass Effect 3--they both have artistic components, however, they've been "commoditized" and mass disseminated.

But for one the creative expression is integral to the function while in the other it's just there so you pick it over Mr Clean. In one the art is the commodity and the commodity is art, in the other the art is attached to the commodity. With glue.

It, albeit admittedly a weaker example, is still an example embodying both aspects. 

[wantedman dan]

samurai crusade wrote...

This topic comes up at least twice a day. Anywho my two cents. The story, the visuals, the characters, the blah blah etc etc. it's all art. I'm sorry you had to buy a box of tissues or fix your wall after the ending. The fact remains that video games are works of modern art. The fact that it is commissioned and altered and stripped does not change the fact that it is a work of art. Take a step back. Embrace eternity. And look at the game from a fresh set of eyes and you'll see how each level design is visually amazing.

I'm going to print off all of the thread titles on this topic and form my own collage piece of art and title it. I'll call it. "Repetition or Consensus"

There is a difference between comissioning a singular work of art and mass dissemination of a culmination of artistic pieces.

[Ziggeh]

wantedman dan wrote...

It, albeit admittedly a weaker example, is still an example embodying both aspects.

Agree, but the reason the same logic doesn't apply is because the aspects can be seperated in the windex.

[wantedman dan]

Ziggeh wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

It, albeit admittedly a weaker example, is still an example embodying both aspects.

Agree, but the reason the same logic doesn't apply is because the aspects can be seperated in the windex.

Not necessarily--the same logic applies because they ARE sold together as a singular product.

[moater boat]

Video games ARE art. Art can be unpopular. Unpopular things don't sell well. End of story.

[RenascentAnt1]

As I stated many times before and will again, Bioware is a business company, it will not give a fig about whether it made it into the Tate Modern or be shortlisted for the Pulitzer.

Tried to raise this as an art issue, as a business issue, hell, even raised Hitler vs Art (and of course the fools on this forum misread).

So there you go. My conclusion is this: no one cares if ME3 is art, everyone is just here for their 2 cents.

[FatalX7.0]

tjc2 wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

The story is art, which is the topic of discussion.

No it is not art, it is a story. The way the media and devlopers have designed art would be to say that Art is about sending a message. Bioware is not sending a message with this game they are selling a product.

If Bioware wants to start making games that are free, then their argument holds water.

Since when are writing and storytelling no longer art?

Also, Video Games are legally art in the US, so get over it.

[Helishorn]

The problem with this whole 'Art' Talk is that art is subjective. I personally like Teller's, of Penn and Teller, position on art which is, 'Art is what you do when your chores are done.' Sure it might not be great, sell at all, or make you famous but who am i to say that what you do, what your passionate about, what you create...is not art.

As far as art ceasing to be art when it becomes a commodity...Picasso, famous artist, not only mass produced his picture of a dove holding a leaf but also gave his friend the right to create copies and sell them when he needed money. By the logic presented here one would say that Picasso's dove holding a leaf was no longer art...I believe anyone would have a tough time selling this idea to an actual art critic or gallery.

For me though some games can be art. As i play through the games i see plenty that I consider art. I have stooped playing at points just to look around a and say wow! I have taken screen shots and had friends/family come over and look at bits that were stunning. Some of the music in the game was incredible and made me wish i had one of the higher priced editions that would have allowed me to have the CD. Overall the writing and dialog was amazing at evoking emotions in me and making me care about the situation. Sure i was Meh about the ending but I also think Andy Warhol's picture of a soup can is crap as well. Still i would never consider his painting to not be art just because i don't like it.

In the end if a video game is a sum of its parts and most of its parts are comprised of art...it seems logical that it is also art.

Take a look at some of the things you might have missed in the game...Mass effect 3 art

Modifié par Helishorn, 03 avril 2012 - 08:08 .

[wantedman dan]

Helishorn wrote...
As far as art ceasing to be art when it becomes a commodity...Picasso, famous artist, not only mass produced his picture of a dove holding a leaf but also gave his friend the right to create copies and sell them when he needed money. By the logic presented here one would say that Picasso's dove holding a leaf was no longer art...I believe anyone would have a tough time selling this idea to an actual art critic or gallery.

You've misrepresented the argument.

The initial piece of the picture of the dove was the work of art. After its mass reproduction, it then became a commodity. Your argument allies itself to fundamentally misunderstanding exactly what commodities are.

[samurai crusade]

Cut or not. The finished product is still art.

Let me put this in universal terms. Is a cake with a hole in it still cake? It's a bundt cake but yes it I still cake.... And delicious. Is a donut still a donut if the didn't cut out a hole? I think so

Art is art no matter how many times or threads this comes up in

[FatalX7.0]

Paintings are sold.

Drawings are sold.

Sculptures are sold.

Books are sold.

Music is sold.

Movies are sold.

Buildings are art. Cars are art. Clothing is art. Dancing is an art. Food is an art. Photography is art. Theatre is art.

Visual arts, literary arts, performing arts, media arts. There are so many types of art! And I am sure you have seen it all, on TV, for profit, in stores, for profit, etc, etc.

Many forms of traditional art go into the making of a video game.

Art is as much of a product as anything else nowadays.


Also, I love deadendthrills.

Modifié par FatalX7.0, 03 avril 2012 - 08:21 .

[wantedman dan]

samurai crusade wrote...

Cut or not. The finished product is still art.

It then becomes commodity when it is mass disseminated.

Let me put this in universal terms. Is a cake with a hole in it still cake? It's a bundt cake but yes it I still cake.... And delicious. Is a donut still a donut if the didn't cut out a hole? I think so

Art is art no matter how many times or threads this comes up in

Which then become commodity when mass produced and disseminated.

[MPSai]

So if an artist actually sells their paintings, and makes a living/revenue off of it, they cease to be art?

Okay.

[samurai crusade]

wantedman dan wrote...

samurai crusade wrote...

Cut or not. The finished product is still art.

It then becomes commodity when it is mass disseminated.

Let me put this in universal terms. Is a cake with a hole in it still cake? It's a bundt cake but yes it I still cake.... And delicious. Is a donut still a donut if the didn't cut out a hole? I think so

Art is art no matter how many times or threads this comes up in

Which then become commodity when mass produced and disseminated.

So only original in duplicated works can be art?   Oh to be a millionaire and own such an unique piece

[FatalX7.0]

Everything is a commodity.

In economics, a commodity is the generic term for any marketable item produced to satisfy wants or needs.

I like the wiki for this.

Modifié par FatalX7.0, 03 avril 2012 - 08:26 .

[Clayless]

Of course it's art.

[Sirmalek]

Arguing if something is of artistic value comes down to opinions. You could argue that anything created for a nonproductive activity or to not be used to create or produce a service or product of value is an art. Some regard certain cars to be artist in expression, just like although in general most regard music as an art but does that still hold water for a band like Kiss who admits they just wanted money? So to say all the songs they ever created are not art but simple products like Milk or Bread?

I think games are forms of art since they serve no other purpose than to entertain, you wont learn a foreign language or advance society by a creation of a game. Perhaps the hardware or software technology developed to create such game might but that still doesnt make the game itself a valued product in any sense except the value we as consumers give it by buying with intentions of enjoyment or escape. To me you cant look at games in any other sense that art with that in mind just like it was said earlier about most books and movies.

Certainly no one considers Websters dictionary a work of art but its still a book however something like Lord of the Rings or Edgar Allen Poe to be anything but art.

[RenascentAnt1]

FatalX7.0 wrote...

Everything is a commodity.

In economics, a commodity is the generic term for any marketable item produced to satisfy wants or needs.

I like the wiki for this.

Thank you.

[Carlthestrange]

Art is in the eye of the beholder. It is impossible to decide what is truly art.

Example: Some people think preserving an animal in phemaldehyde and putting it on display in the Tate is art.

I think it is just an animal preserved in phemaldehyde.

Modifié par Carlthestrange, 03 avril 2012 - 08:31 .

[wantedman dan]

samurai crusade wrote...

So only original in duplicated works can be art?   Oh to be a millionaire and own such an unique piece

The original piece, or comprising pieces, is what is considered to be art. Whether or not you think it is artful is up to you.