315 réponses à ce sujet

[marrak]

I'm curious, and just am looking for a clarification to your reasoning, Wantedman Dan.

By your logic, anything funded by a corporation, or paid for by a corporation, or tied to a corporation to become a product cannot be art?

[PistolPete7556]

Avissel wrote...

Art can be a product.
A product can be art.

This

[FatalX7.0]

Watermelon Dan is rude.

And he does not know what a joke is.

And he's also sarcastic. And rude.

[IGSR]

OkaeOne wrote...

"it's art you can't criticize it because artistic expression should not and cannot be surpressed or critiqued." or "it's not art, because I paid for it.. I own it and I want it like this."  Neither side is right. 

Are a lot of people saying that ME3 shouldn't  be critiqued because it's art?  I haven't heard that one myself, which is why I ask. 

Make no mistake about it... we are all consumers and BW needs us more than we need them.  We also have every right to critique their product along with any and all attached artistic values of said product.  Now technically they don't need to do a dang thing about the ending... and in fact they can tell everyone to shove it.  But, they know the repercussions of having done that could hurt them financially in the long run.  In the end (no pun) if BW decides to address the concerns of many it benefits all.  At the very least BW will be more conscious about the overall quality of the products they release.

If Bioware changed the story in order avoid the financial repercussions of keeping it as is, such a move would constitute a strong admission that ME3 is not art.  In my opinion.

I think Bioware has a lot more to gain from sticking to their guns.

[wantedman dan]

avonkorff wrote...

Just because something is crafted with the intention of being sold to/available for purchase by the masses, does not mean it's not art. To insinuate, or imply, that because Bioware is a "business selling a product", Mass Effect 3 (or any other video game for that matter) can not qualify as 'art' is nonsensical and ignores the fact that mass consumption is the linch pin of mass media/art production.

Art =/= commodity. If they wanted to produce art, they wouldn't have offered a mass dissemination of it. The fact that you equate mass media and art production is telling, itself. The story of Mass Effect is, itself, art. The playable game they, Bioware, released, is a commodity.

Commodities CAN and DO have artful components. That does not make the commodity itself, art.

To be sure I understood what the "Mass Effect 3 as a commodity" side of this debate were really saying, I shamefully visited Wikipedia to ensure that I understood what application of the word commodity they seem to be using....and came across this passage at the top of the article which I found particularly helpful:

"The more specific meaning of the term commodity is applied to goods only. It is used to describe a class of goods for which there is demand, but which is supplied without qualitative differentiation across a market.[3] A commodity has full or partial fungibility; that is, the market treats it as equivalent or nearly so no matter who produces it. "From the taste of wheat it is not possible to tell who produced it, a Russian serf, a French peasant or an English capitalist."

I'm glad you substantiate your intellectually deep and enthralling arguments off of a five-minute skim of a Wikipedia article, no less.

There is an incredible amount of qualitative differentiation in every artistic medium. That's the central point here...this is why it is art...because Bioware is not presenting ME3 as a "goods and services", or commodity, type product (especially considering it was not created in reaction to consumer demands to provide an exclusive product to fill a specific need).

ME3 [video games] is [are] unique, individual, and qualitatively differentiated, from all other products in it's [their] class (video games). Common threads may exist between games, but there is no true market DEMAND (ie: goods and services requisite) for 3rd person action RPG shooters set in Space with a relatively individualized story depending on past choices...to suggest otherwise is ridiculous. 

If they weren't presenting it as a commodity, they wouldn't demand US$60 for it and $10 for every downloadable expansion. That's nonsensical. 

And yes, they did provide an exclusive product (the Mass Effect Series) to fulfill a specific need (entertainment). There is ALWAYS demand for entertainment, and just because there is no derived market for the down-to-the-last-detail of the game does not mean it does not satisfy the definition of a commodity.

The notion that games aren't art because they are created for mass consumption, again, is absurd. To postulate this theory, one has to assume that music, film, and/or fashion industries all exist to provide goods and services, and do not have, harbor, or foster qualitative differentiation within their respective medium. It is undeniably obvious that such a hypothesis is utterly full of s*&#.

If it is absurd, you haven't done very well in proving this assertion. You postulate the theory in simpler terms than what is desired for said theory, ergo you're obviously going to come forward with a twisted view of it.

Read above if you haven't figured that out.

[wantedman dan]

FatalX7.0 wrote...

Watermelon Dan is rude.

And he does not know what a joke is.

And he's also sarcastic. And rude.

Whine much? 

[Helishorn]

IGSR wrote...

If Bioware changed the story in order avoid the financial repercussions of keeping it as is, such a move would constitute a strong admission that ME3 is not art.  In my opinion.

I think Bioware has a lot more to gain from sticking to their guns.

I tend to agree. I mean i think it would be still art but they would loose their artistic integreity by bassically selling out to the masses.

Im of two sides though. I understand why people are complaining and would agree that i would have liked to have a bit more ending expecially since this is the last game in the series. At the same time i think that Bioware changing the ending to suit the masses is potentially a dangrous precident for people who make games as it will empower people
into thinking the act of gatheirng and complaining loudly enough is
sufficent to make a company do what they want.

[wantedman dan]

Helishorn wrote...

IGSR wrote...

If Bioware changed the story in order avoid the financial repercussions of keeping it as is, such a move would constitute a strong admission that ME3 is not art.  In my opinion.

I think Bioware has a lot more to gain from sticking to their guns.

I tend to agree. I mean i think it would be still art but they would loose their artistic integreity by bassically selling out to the masses.

Im of two sides though. I understand why people are complaining and would agree that i would have liked to have a bit more ending expecially since this is the last game in the series. At the same time i think that Bioware changing the ending to suit the masses is potentially a dangrous precident for people who make games as it will empower people
into thinking the act of gatheirng and complaining loudly enough is sufficent to make a company do what they want.

The precedent has already been set by Bethesda, so that assertion is bunk.

[FatalX7.0]

wantedman dan wrote...

FatalX7.0 wrote...

Watermelon Dan is rude.

And he does not know what a joke is.

And he's also sarcastic. And rude.

Whine much? 

What?

[wantedman dan]

marrak wrote...

I'm curious, and just am looking for a clarification to your reasoning, Wantedman Dan.

By your logic, anything funded by a corporation, or paid for by a corporation, or tied to a corporation to become a product cannot be art?

Extrapolate.

[wantedman dan]

FatalX7.0 wrote...

What?

You use a terrible example and you whine when I tear through it.

Whine much?

[BWGungan]

wantedman dan wrote...

Thanks, OP. Mass Effect 3 and its prequels are commodities with artistic components.

The music in ME3 is art.  The acting in ME3 is art.  The graphic design in ME3 is art. 

The code, however, is not art.  Neither are the gameplay mechanics, or the medium on which it is stored.

It was not created in a vacuum simply to exist.  It was created for the purpose of entertainment and for mass distribution.  It was not created simply to exist; it is a product, and as consumers we have the right to criticize and complaint when the product, in part or in whole, is not up to standards.

[FatalX7.0]

wantedman dan wrote...

FatalX7.0 wrote...

What?

You use a terrible example and you whine when I tear through it.

Whine much?

Modifié par FatalX7.0, 03 avril 2012 - 09:41 .

[wantedman dan]

BWGungan wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

Thanks, OP. Mass Effect 3 and its prequels are commodities with artistic components.

The music in ME3 is art.  The acting in ME3 is art.  The graphic design in ME3 is art. 

The code, however, is not art.  Neither are the gameplay mechanics, or the medium on which it is stored.

It was not created in a vacuum simply to exist.  It was created for the purpose of entertainment and for mass distribution.  It was not created simply to exist; it is a product, and as consumers we have the right to criticize and complaint when the product, in part or in whole, is not up to standards.

Agreed. Well put.

[wantedman dan]

FatalX7.0 wrote...

[Keldaurz]

Of course it is not art. Long time ago Bioware was offered what they thought three choices.

580 blue euros
480 red pounds
775 green dollars and some senior positions to do a EA/BW synthesis

No matter what they choose, art would be throw out the window.

[AtreiyaN7]

It's a creative endeavor, so yes, it's art. And your analogy is complete fail as far as I'm concerned. You're comparing productivity programs with a creative work that involves a story, characters, writing, actual art, animation, etc.

[FatalX7.0]

^The most mature(and oblivious) individual I've had the courtesy of meeting through a computer.

[DranakShadow]

2art
noun \\ˈärt\\
Definition of ART
1
: skill acquired by experience, study, or observation <the art of making friends>
2
a : a branch of learning: (1) : one of the humanities (2) plural : liberal arts b archaic : learning, scholarship
3
: an occupation requiring knowledge or skill <the art of organ building>
4
a : the conscious use of skill and creative imagination especially in the production of aesthetic objects; also : works so produced b (1) : fine arts (2) : one of the fine arts (3) : a graphic art
5
a archaic : a skillful plan b : the quality or state of being artful
6
: decorative or illustrative elements in printed matter

Yes it is.

[FatalX7.0]

Well, that was as fun as the rest of these threads.

Off to a new thread!

[wantedman dan]

FatalX7.0 wrote...

^The most mature(and oblivious) individual I've had the courtesy of meeting through a computer.

I find that wholeheartedly endearing coming from the person who graced us all with the lovely (and irrelevant) example of the Pizza Lawl.

[Qutayba]

Yes, not all commodities are art, but all art is a commodity going back to the first prehistoric "Venus" sculpture that got traded for an ermine pelt. I don't know where the idea comes from that if something is art, it is somehow suddenly above criticism or revision (If so, what would there be to critique or revise?). Novels, movies, and even paintings get changed or edited all the time based on the input of editors and patrons (i.e. customers). Even Shakespeare's plays got altered based on audience and critics' response.

The question here isn't whether ME3 is art or not (of course it is), but whether the voice of external critics (us) should override the voice of the internal critics (their editors and execs). Someone really slipped somewhere.

[Arppis]

tjc2 wrote...

Mass Effect 3 is software designed to be sold/liscenced to generate revenue.

Is Windows Art, is OSX Art, is Adobe or Microsoft Office Art?

If any of the above products were (yes I know some of them are) massively flawed would it be the right, artistic choice, if Microsoft/Apple/Adobe ignored customer feedback?

Mona Lisa is just a piece of canvas with oil paint on it.

"Art is a term that describes a diverse range of human activities and the products of those activities, but is most often understood to refer to painting, film, photography, sculpture, and other visual media. Music, theatre, dance, literature, and interactive media are included in a broader definition of art or the arts."

Modifié par Arppis, 03 avril 2012 - 09:52 .

[Helishorn]

wantedman dan wrote...

The precedent has already been set by Bethesda, so that assertion is bunk.

True there were fans who did not like the fall out 3 ending and complained. The difference between that and the bioware debacle however is one of size and scope.

When the fans out cried about Fallout 3 it was a quiet internet rumble. A few gamming sites picked it up and posted their comments. Bethesda nodded their head and a good time later produced something that let players continue their adventures and have a better ending than what was provided (although that bit was not removed if i remember correctly).

This Bioware thing has been reported on almost every major news outlet in the world however. Although it is the same thing it is a much bigger thing due to the attention it's getting. This is why i think the conclusion of all the shenanigans will be more far reaching than it was with Bethesda.

Call it the Christopher Columbus Enigma if you will. We know from history that ole Chris was not the first one to make it to the Americas but due to the advent of cheep linen (due to the black plague) and the invention of the printing press in 1450 he is credited with being the discoverer.  

Regardless it will be intresting to see how it all plays out

[AwesomeDudex64]

It's art but it's also a commodity.