315 réponses à ce sujet

[Ariella]

wantedman dan wrote...

Ariella wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

Avissel wrote...

Art can be a product.
A product can be art.

Not if its sole purpose of existence is to be a commodity.

tell that to writers, mucisians and actors. I've seen devs here says they'd love to be able to do this stuff for free, but we live in the real world where people need this little thing called money to survive.

Game design is an artform, just because it makes money doesn't change that.

Boo-hoo.

Sorry, just because you want it to be something doesn't mean it is that. It's still a commodity, even if they oh-so-wish it to be art.

Game design is artful, yes, but the dissemination of the final product revokes its status as art.

Do you people not read, or are you just not comprehending it?

I'm sorry, but you seem to be saying that if you paid for it, it can't be art. Casablanca, Lord of the Rings (the book not the movies), West Side Story, Anything written by Mozart, Bach, etc all would come under the classification ofr commodity since they were paid for.

The fact of the matter is art is subjective and has nothing to do with dissemination or anything else.

[wantedman dan]

DranakShadow wrote...

Definition of ART
1: skill acquired by experience, study, or observation <the art of making friends>
2: a branch of learning: (1) : one of the humanities (2) plural : liberal arts b archaic : learning, scholarship
3: an occupation requiring knowledge or skill <the art of organ building>
4: the conscious use of skill and creative imagination especially in the production of aesthetic objects; also : works so produced b (1) : fine arts (2) : one of the fine arts (3) : a graphic art
5: a archaic : a skillful plan b : the quality or state of being artful
6: decorative or illustrative elements in printed matter

Yes it is.

Wrong.

Definition of COMMODITY

1: an economic good: as: a product of agriculture or mining, an article of commerce especially when delivered for shipment, a mass-produced unspecialized product
2: something useful or valued
3: obsolete
4: a good or service whose wide availability typically leads to smaller profit margins and diminishes the importance of factors (as brand name) other than price
5: one that is subject to ready exchange or exploitation within a market

Modifié par wantedman dan, 03 avril 2012 - 09:54 .

[C Trayne]

I really don't like this argument personally. Maybe because of my views I don't know, I just don't find this to be a very compelling argument. In my opinion no video game should be considered art. If you were to argue its anything I can understand someone saying architecture.

Video games are made and sold as entertainment usually aimed towards a specific audience. To me that is not art. I can understand the comparisons and i accept there are artistic points within the game. The story itself would be amazing if not for the whale dung of an ending.

But to me art is not about providing entertainment or about making money. You make art because you enjoy it and because it is what you enjoy doing. A company making a game to sell by the millions is not artistic.

[wantedman dan]

Ariella wrote...

I'm sorry, but you seem to be saying that if you paid for it, it can't be art. Casablanca, Lord of the Rings (the book not the movies), West Side Story, Anything written by Mozart, Bach, etc all would come under the classification ofr commodity since they were paid for.

The fact of the matter is art is subjective and has nothing to do with dissemination or anything else.

If you paid for the access of it in its massively disseminated form, then yes, you have purchased it. The original story--written by JRR Tolkein, etc.--or the original composition of music by Mozart, Bach, etc does not lose its artful status.

Purchasing it in the massively disseminated form does. It all boils down to the ORIGINAL product.

[Qutayba]

wantedman dan wrote...

DranakShadow wrote...

Definition of ART

Yes it is.

Wrong.

Definition of COMMODITY

Let go of the either/or and embrace the both/and.

[wantedman dan]

Qutayba wrote...

Let go of the either/or and embrace the both/and.

Read my prior arguments.

[DranakShadow]

wantedman dan wrote...

DranakShadow wrote...

Definition of ART
1: skill acquired by experience, study, or observation <the art of making friends>
2: a branch of learning: (1) : one of the humanities (2) plural : liberal arts b archaic : learning, scholarship
3: an occupation requiring knowledge or skill <the art of organ building>
4: the conscious use of skill and creative imagination especially in the production of aesthetic objects; also : works so produced b (1) : fine arts (2) : one of the fine arts (3) : a graphic art
5: a archaic : a skillful plan b : the quality or state of being artful
6: decorative or illustrative elements in printed matter

Yes it is.

Wrong.

Definition of COMMODITY

1: an economic good: as: a product of agriculture or mining, an article of commerce especially when delivered for shipment, a mass-produced unspecialized product
2: something useful or valued
3: obsolete
4: a good or service whose wide availability typically leads to smaller profit margins and diminishes the importance of factors (as brand name) other than price
5: one that is subject to ready exchange or exploitation within a market

Still a creation of imagination, still art.

[Arppis]

C Trayne wrote...

I really don't like this argument personally. Maybe because of my views I don't know, I just don't find this to be a very compelling argument. In my opinion no video game should be considered art. If you were to argue its anything I can understand someone saying architecture.

Video games are made and sold as entertainment usually aimed towards a specific audience. To me that is not art. I can understand the comparisons and i accept there are artistic points within the game. The story itself would be amazing if not for the whale dung of an ending.

But to me art is not about providing entertainment or about making money. You make art because you enjoy it and because it is what you enjoy doing. A company making a game to sell by the millions is not artistic.

Definition of art is vague at best. Arts used to mean "craftmanship" of sorts before. So if you had profession, you were artist.

Video games are act of creativity, that alone makes it art. If artist gets comission for his work, it's no longer art then? I'm sure these people enjoy the art they are doing and the creative process they go trough doing it. Saying it's not art but just a product is imo pretty... "insulting" to those people who put their heart and soul to the thing they are creating, imo.

These things combine, music, story, visuals and even interactivity. You get to participate and play around with this work of art. But again, it's a vague thing what is art and what is not, and we can all decide for ourselves what we consider as art.

[AtreiyaN7]

wantedman dan wrote...

FatalX7.0 wrote...

^The most mature(and oblivious) individual I've had the courtesy of meeting through a computer.

I find that wholeheartedly endearing coming from the person who graced us all with the lovely (and irrelevant) example of the Pizza Lawl.

Personally, I just laughed at  Fatal and proceeded to ignore him. I've never said that BioWare shouldn't listen to feedback, and if he had been more familiar with my posts, I guess he'd know that in the past I've said that the idea of alternative endings is fine and that there is precedent for game endings to be changed/altered/added to (per Broken Steel).

However, the game is much more than just a commodity and I find the OP trying to pass it off as being exactly the same situation as an office productivity program, etc. is ridiculous, along with the blanket statement that the game is not art.

P.S. I work in Adobe InDesign CS5.5, so I'd happily give Adobe some feedback on footnoting options after dealing with a manuscript that was giving me trouble the other day like how it was exceptionally inconvenient.

[wantedman dan]

DranakShadow wrote...

Still a creation of imagination, still art.

Wrong, again. The final product is not art.

[Arppis]

wantedman dan wrote...

DranakShadow wrote...

Still a creation of imagination, still art.

Wrong, again. The final product is not art.

No, it is.

[wantedman dan]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Personally, I just laughed at  Fatal and proceeded to ignore him. I've never said that BioWare shouldn't listen to feedback, and if he had been more familiar with my posts, I guess he'd know that in the past I've said that the idea of alternative endings is fine and that there is precedent for game endings to be changed/altered/added to (per Broken Steel).

However, the game is much more than just a commodity and I find the OP trying to pass it off as being exactly the same situation as an office productivity program, etc. is ridiculous, along with the blanket statement that the game is not art.

P.S. I work in Adobe InDesign CS5.5, so I'd happily give Adobe some feedback on footnoting options after dealing with a manuscript that was giving me trouble the other day like how it was exceptionally inconvenient.

I enjoy making them feel like they've won for a bit--make them think they've gotten under my skin--and then flip their own antics on them.

It never tends to end well for the other person. 

As I've said, the game is a commodity with artful components.

Modifié par wantedman dan, 03 avril 2012 - 10:15 .

[wantedman dan]

Arppis wrote...

No, it is.

I'm not going to repeat my arguments. If you disagree, go find the argument you disagree with.

[Arppis]

wantedman dan wrote...

Arppis wrote...

No, it is.

I'm not going to repeat my arguments. If you disagree, go find the argument you disagree with.

It's both.

[Helishorn]

C Trayne wrote...

I really don't like this argument personally..... .

But to me art is not about providing entertainment or about making money. You make art because you enjoy it and because it is what you enjoy doing. A company making a game to sell by the millions is not artistic.

Again the problem with what is art or not art is that it is subjective to the individual. Some argue that the game has artistic qualities but as its a comodity its not art. Others say that Code cannot be art but having been a coder in my past career i would say i have seen some really beautiful code before. Things that make me sit back in wonderment. Is there art in the skill of producing the Code or is the Code itself art? I have seen physist decribe Einstines E=MC^2 as art because of its beauty, simplicity, and perfection...

In the end its something that we could debate for thousands of years and never agree upon. Mind you i would rather be debating it over some pizzia and beer a nice loud pub...maybe its just me though.

Modifié par Helishorn, 03 avril 2012 - 10:10 .

[wantedman dan]

Arppis wrote...

It's both.

Not in the sense of it being a final product, no.

[Maria Caliban]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Personally, I just laughed at  Fatal and proceeded to ignore him. I've never said that BioWare shouldn't listen to feedback, and if he had been more familiar with my posts, I guess he'd know that in the past I've said that the idea of alternative endings is fine and that there is precedent for game endings to be changed/altered/added to (per Broken Steel).

However, the game is much more than just a commodity and I find the OP trying to pass it off as being exactly the same situation as an office productivity program, etc. is ridiculous, along with the blanket statement that the game is not art.

P.S. I work in Adobe InDesign CS5.5, so I'd happily give Adobe some feedback on footnoting options after dealing with a manuscript that was giving me trouble the other day like how it was exceptionally inconvenient.

The problem is that some people still have a romantic, almost sacred view of art. If Mass Effect was art then it would be sacrosanct and above criticism. Also the creators could only be living out of cardboard boxes and subsisting on Ramen noodles.

Ergo, Mass Effect can't be art because that conflicts with their desire for a different ending.

[Zany Jedi]

Anything and everything can potentially be art from a given perspective, i.e. it's subjective. Why is this so hard to understand?

[Arppis]

wantedman dan wrote...

Arppis wrote...

It's both.

Not in the sense of it being a final product, no.

Yarp it is.

Otherwise movies or books can't be art either.

Zany Jedi wrote...

Anything and everything can potentially
be art from a given perspective, i.e. it's subjective. Why is this so
hard to understand?

Dunno, guess people like to squabble about it.

I'm just bored. But I still think games are art. They combine so many forms of it, that they should be called as such. Not to mention art = craft = what you do for living.

Modifié par Arppis, 03 avril 2012 - 10:13 .

[DranakShadow]

wantedman dan wrote...

DranakShadow wrote...

Still a creation of imagination, still art.

Wrong, again. The final product is not art.

Even if it's still a copy of art, it's still art. The required skills to create animations, models, ect. Is considered art. Stories are considered art. As long as it's built from imagination, it is art. Mass produced or not.

[wantedman dan]

Arppis wrote...

Yarp it is.

Otherwise movies or books can't be art either.

You obviously haven't read my prior arguments.

Please refer to them.

[AtreiyaN7]

wantedman dan wrote...

I enjoy making them feel like they've won for a bit--make them think they've gotten under my skin--and then flip their own antics on them.

It negver tends to end well for the other person. 

As I've said, the game is a commodity with artful components.

It's a commercial product but still a work of art. In a rather detailed post in another thread, I pointed out that many of the great works of art by Michelangelo, Bernini, etc. were actually commissioned pieces done for money. That still didn't stop anyone from considering them brilliant pieces of art. The two things aren't mutually exclusive.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 03 avril 2012 - 10:14 .

[wantedman dan]

DranakShadow wrote...

Even if it's still a copy of art, it's still art. The required skills to create animations, models, ect. Is considered art. Stories are considered art. As long as it's built from imagination, it is art. Mass produced or not.

No, then it becomes a commodity with artful components. Just like I've said all along.

Modifié par wantedman dan, 03 avril 2012 - 10:17 .

[Ariella]

wantedman dan wrote...

Ariella wrote...

I'm sorry, but you seem to be saying that if you paid for it, it can't be art. Casablanca, Lord of the Rings (the book not the movies), West Side Story, Anything written by Mozart, Bach, etc all would come under the classification ofr commodity since they were paid for.

The fact of the matter is art is subjective and has nothing to do with dissemination or anything else.

If you paid for the access of it in its massively disseminated form, then yes, you have purchased it. The original story--written by JRR Tolkein, etc.--or the original composition of music by Mozart, Bach, etc does not lose its artful status.

Purchasing it in the massively disseminated form does. It all boils down to the ORIGINAL product.

You ever heard of a strawman. Your parsing semantics, Dan. I pay money to go see a production of Into the Woods, the art is as much in the performance, which I paid to see as in  the writing of the dialogue and music. Money has little to do with art except that it allows artists to eat and actually continue their craft. I'd suggest you reading Stephen King's On Writing, but you probably wouldn't like it because it's by a "commercial" writer, who loves the language.

[Goneaviking]

I have no objection to considering games art, however I find the assertion that art is sacred and inviolable absurd and irrational. The history of artistic works is rife with artists changing their works for profit and convenience, or being compelled to create artistic works that they had no passion for or which ran counter to their artistic vision. Often those works have survived to become classics and are seen as valuable contributions to our collective cultural history despite the absence of "artistic integrity."