161 réponses à ce sujet

[Taboo]

pikey1969 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Money is not an issue and I know that. Don't be fooled by this notion. They have plenty of money. If they simply added one good ending where Shepard lives and one failure ending a great many people would be fine. That's all they need to do.

Please educate us.

EA is a large company that decides what to fund. If Bioware wants to make something, they get a team of producers together and a budget is set. It works the same way in movies. Warner Brothers can complain about losing money off of movie pirates but they still have billions and billions of dollars in the bank.

[x-Killision-X]

pikey1969 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Money is not an issue and I know that. Don't be fooled by this notion. They have plenty of money. If they simply added one good ending where Shepard lives and one failure ending a great many people would be fine. That's all they need to do.

Please educate us.

He's simply talking about giving people choice. A very simple concept. keep what we have and add A) utter failure ending and victory

[Taboo]

x-Killision-X wrote...

pikey1969 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Money is not an issue and I know that. Don't be fooled by this notion. They have plenty of money. If they simply added one good ending where Shepard lives and one failure ending a great many people would be fine. That's all they need to do.

Please educate us.

He's simply talking about giving people choice. A very simple concept. keep what we have and add A) utter failure ending and victory

Which would not be hard to implement.

[1490]

Taboo-XX wrote...

EA is a large company that decides what to fund. If Bioware wants to make something, they get a team of producers together and a budget is set. It works the same way in movies. Warner Brothers can complain about losing money off of movie pirates but they still have billions and billions of dollars in the bank.

True, but no business in their right mind would just "throw their money away," even if they had tons of surprlus to throw.  EA knows that money spent on "correcting" ME3's ending could also be spent on a Battlefield 3 DLC that more gamers would probably buy.  Bottom line: if an ending DLC doesn't somehow make money for EA, whether it's through direct profits or guaranteed future customer loyaly, they aren't going to do it.

[pikey1969]

Taboo-XX wrote...

x-Killision-X wrote...

pikey1969 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Money is not an issue and I know that. Don't be fooled by this notion. They have plenty of money. If they simply added one good ending where Shepard lives and one failure ending a great many people would be fine. That's all they need to do.

Please educate us.

He's simply talking about giving people choice. A very simple concept. keep what we have and add A) utter failure ending and victory

Which would not be hard to implement.

Have you not been paying attention? If not to this situation, at least what's been said in the thread so far? Do you have zero inclination for even trying to understand how process of developing content works? Concept might be simple, but dealing with that concept right now is anything but.

Modifié par pikey1969, 03 avril 2012 - 07:27 .

[Arokel]

What is the PPCP?

Global nuclear war.

[Taboo]

pikey1969 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

x-Killision-X wrote...

pikey1969 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Money is not an issue and I know that. Don't be fooled by this notion. They have plenty of money. If they simply added one good ending where Shepard lives and one failure ending a great many people would be fine. That's all they need to do.

Please educate us.

He's simply talking about giving people choice. A very simple concept. keep what we have and add A) utter failure ending and victory

Which would not be hard to implement.

Have you not been paying attention? If not to this situation, at least what's been said in the thread so far? Do you have zero inclination for even trying to understand how process of developing content works? Concept might be simple, but dealing with that concept right now is anything but.

I work with film footage. The concept is very similar in some regards. People need to understand that it isn't obscenly difficult. All you need to do is make some edits and add a text epilouge and everything would blow over.

[daecath]

Worst case scenario - Bioware announces at PAX that the endings are going to stand, and does nothing.
Not any better - Bioware announces that the endings stand, but they'll release an online comic or twitter feed or something to "clarify".
Still not better - Bioware announces that the endings stand, but they'll release a DLC (paid or free, doesn't matter at this point) to "clarify". Because clearly we're all too stupid to understand the unrivaled genius of it, so they'll make sure to use single-syllable words, with lots of pictures.
OK - We are working on designing a change to the ending, looking at all the fan feedback, but we don't have a definitive release date or price point yet.
Better - We get an altered ending, but it will take 10 months, and cost $20.
Honestly, I would be ok with that if we got something that was the same quality as the rest of the franchise. It would have to be everything they promised originally though - impacted by our decisions through all the games, multiple and wildly different branches, and there better be an ending in there with little blue babies (or whoever your LI was ).
Better than Better - Altered ending with everything that was originally promised, $20, but it will also contain a few items to lessen the pain to your wallet. You can watch Emily Wong's last transmission, go on one last mission with Kal, or have this really cool armor and weapons pack - something like these. They wouldn't cost much to develop, but would be a nice addition for most of us.
Best - New ending, it will be everything you expect and more, and it will be free.

Now my reactions:
Worst - EA/Bioware loses a loyal customer of 10 years. In the last 6 months alone, I've spent over $400 on them.
Bad - I'll be wary about what I buy from them. They become like every other game company. I'll decide each game on an individual basis after reading reviews, probably wait for the price to drop, and I'll avoid any new franchises for fear of this happening again.
OK - I'll still be cautious, but not as much. I'll buy games soon after release if the reviews are good.
Best - business as usual. I'll go place my standing "anything Bioware" pre-order right now.

The fact is, there was only one game company I trusted to deliver the kind of gaming experience I want. Even at their worst (before now), I never lost faith that I would at least enjoy their games. They might not all be absolute perfection, but they're all fun and enjoyable. But ME3 broke that trust. They'll have to work to get it back again.

[Laurencio]

Taboo-XX wrote...

x-Killision-X wrote...

pikey1969 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Money is not an issue and I know that. Don't be fooled by this notion. They have plenty of money. If they simply added one good ending where Shepard lives and one failure ending a great many people would be fine. That's all they need to do.

Please educate us.

He's simply talking about giving people choice. A very simple concept. keep what we have and add A) utter failure ending and victory

Which would not be hard to implement.

Multiple endings, all being different based on what choices you've made in the course of 3 games, while at same time creating one "main" ending, with varied choice, for those that only played ME3. Including extended gameplay, several hours of voice acting sessions, and extensive cinematics for all of the options, and results.

Yeah.. easy as pie.

[Taboo]

Laurencio wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

x-Killision-X wrote...

pikey1969 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Money is not an issue and I know that. Don't be fooled by this notion. They have plenty of money. If they simply added one good ending where Shepard lives and one failure ending a great many people would be fine. That's all they need to do.

Please educate us.

He's simply talking about giving people choice. A very simple concept. keep what we have and add A) utter failure ending and victory

Which would not be hard to implement.

Multiple endings, all being different based on what choices you've made in the course of 3 games, while at same time creating one "main" ending, with varied choice, for those that only played ME3. Including extended gameplay, several hours of voice acting sessions, and extensive cinematics for all of the options, and results.

Yeah.. easy as pie.

I'm referring to a silent ending with two oucomes based off the current endings. TWO. Fives minutes footage for each.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 03 avril 2012 - 07:32 .

[Blackmind1]

 That's an apt name. Most of this fanbase is acting like it's on PCP right now.

[Captain Victory]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I work with film footage. The concept is very similar in some regards. People need to understand that it isn't obscenly difficult. All you need to do is make some edits and add a text epilouge and everything would blow over.

More or less, this is accurate.

I can't understand why people are so hung up on how that would be anything remotely approaching the definition of 'difficult' or 'expensive' - and at the very least it would appease a lot of people. Might even appease me.

[Taboo]

Captain Victory wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I work with film footage. The concept is very similar in some regards. People need to understand that it isn't obscenly difficult. All you need to do is make some edits and add a text epilouge and everything would blow over.

More or less, this is accurate.

I can't understand why people are so hung up on how that would be anything remotely approaching the definition of 'difficult' or 'expensive' - and at the very least it would appease a lot of people. Might even appease me.

They don't even have to do any VO. Sometimes silence means more than all the noise in the world. THIS is what I'm trying to say.

[Teneroth]

 ok, so as a (hopefully) game designer in the making I feel like sharing my ideas.

Artistic integrity

Whatever bioware/EA may claim, this is bull. Using the word 'and' in the beginning of a sentance and refusing to change it because it's improper grammer is Artistic Integrity. Promising to deliver 'unique and vastly different endings' then refusing to uphold this is NOT. And even if it were, there is one thing far more important to any buisiness that gets by on making pleasing its fan base: maintaining said fan base. You see, Bioware has created the kind of fan base that any game designer (like myself) who has tons of new and interesting ideas would die for, the kind that is almost rabidly loyal so long as you continue to produce good and satisfying games. This is in contrast to Blizzard's fan base, which is made up of people who feel that Blizzard is the 'cool thing' right now and will jump ship the moment anything new or different is announced for fear of being labled uncool. 

The very fact that we are here is proof that Bioware has (or had previous to ME3) a very loyal and trusting fan base. We feel that, for whatever reason, Bioware was unable to hold up it's end of the bargin and are expressing that we understand and would like them to fix it.

Possible futures of Bioware

The way I see it, current I would lable Bioware one of the top game companies in terms of pushing the envalope that is gaming. However, because of their unique fan base, this may change. If they come out with a statement saying "we're sorry, deadlines and funding issues caused us to release a game that many of us felt wasn't ready, specifically the ending. We are currently putting togeather a new ending which will be availble by the end of the year assuming everything goes to plan." Then, so long as they deliver on this, I for one will remain a rabid, slightly crazy bioware fan. But if they say "We're sorry you didn't understand our ending, here is some DLC that should explain it too you" then I will be pissed. Not only are they talking down to us as though we, the people who have devoured hours of game time, much of which was simply reading and listening to the story of the Mass Effect setting, but acting as though we SHOULD of understood the endings.

Yes, a creator of the reapers was alluded to in the first two games, we're smart enough to know they didn't just pop out of the ground. Yes the reapers claim to be trying to bring order to the chaos that is us, but I assumed that simply ment that they are bringing us to order so that they may harvest us towards their own goals. And yes, we know the Citidel is a reaper creation to guide us on the path they want us to follow to make us easier to harvest when the time comes. But where the **** did this star child come from? If he is the citidel as he claims, how did the protheans stop him from simply openning the Citidel relay in the first game? They altered the Keepers to not respond to the signal from dark space, they didn't put the child in time out for the next 50,005 years to think about what he's done. There is no explination to this sudden twist, and in a setting that has previous to this ending had outstanding foreshadowing, timing, and twists it is an insult to assume that we were 'unable to understand it.' And talking down to us as though we SHOULD of understood it, nevermind that we've been poking millions of holes in it since it came out, will simply alienate your hardcore fan base. 

I, for one, will never purchase another Bioware game at full price if they don't live up to their promises and fix the ending, I'll wait a few months for the price to drop, then wait for Steam to put it on sale for 50% off. So the game that, had they rewarded my trust by fixing ME3's ending I would of payed $50-60 on, I'll spend at most $10. And I'm sure I won't be the only one. Even worse from a game designer's stand point, I will not get emotionally attached to the game or any of the characters, it will simply be a fun interlude while I wait for the next, more interesting, game. Meaning I will not purchase any DLC or expansions, and probably won't get any sequals. 

So, Mr. EA director type who thinks the ending should be left as is to save cost, which do you think will cause you to make more profits: Leave the ending as is, alienate the hardcore bioware fan base, and at most get $10 out of every game released from now on assuming I purchase it at all. Or, give Bioware a few months to a year to release a free DLC to fix the ending, renew the trust the hardcore bioware fan base has and cause us to continue paying $50-60 for up coming games?

Like it or not, us Hardcore fans form the center of any fan base, alienating us will reduce sales (we won't purchase it), reduce word of mouth advertising (we won't tell our less-than-hardcore-friends about your games), may even cause us to speak up against your games/company (hell hath few furies like a hardcore fan scorned). 

[dayumdhuum]

If BioWare makes the wrong choice and then later realizes it, this reminds me of a scenario that plays out in Chappelle's show S03E01, in which Dave is visiting the IRS with a bodyguard. Imagine, for a moment that Dave is BioWare, the bodyguard is the Mass Effect fan base and EA is the IRS.

EA shoots Mass Effect fan base 3 times.
BioWare rushes over to the fan base.
BioWare: "You alright dog? You alright?"
Fan Base: "Money... The root of all evil. EA pulled the trigger, but your greed did this to me Dave."
BioWare: "Wh-why you saying that man?"
Fan Base: "You didn't have to end the series with speculation, no matter how good the series is. They're only gonna say, 'It's not as good as the last game was.' "
BioWare: "I know that. I already know that."
Fan Base: "You know... You know what the key to keeping the game fresh is?"
BioWare: "What?"
Fan Base: "You gotta..."
BioWare: "Com'on, talk to me!"
Fan Base: "You gotta... I'm dead..."
KA-CHUNG!

I do not envy BioWare at all. To have to come to sort of decision on what to do next, it has to be hard especially when it could potentially break their loyal fan base. Doesn't matter if there are some people who liked the ending or not, a considerable amount of people don't. And the people that don't are using that as a basis to not do business with them again. And the people that do like it say, "I liked the ending, so I don't get a say in this?" You do. But I rarely see anyone defend the ending as vehemently as the people who want it changed. I have yet to see anything defending the ending that is well thought out, or as organized as the multiple youtube videoes, threads and documents that I have seen in people's signatures, posts or even on facebook. People say, "We don't talk about the ending in a good light because we are quieter than you." Take a look at the movie called Inception (and please understand this is just for the sake of argument). As soon as that movie ended, people started debating over the ambiguity of the ending. Not about whether the end was "good or not". It was about, was he still dreaming or not, and other theories of the sort. Everything in the narrative that was presented as important was presumably solved. But then the top is still spinning, not a big thing really. But that one tiny, insignificant object changes almost the entire movie. That's narrative ambiguity at it's finest. To question the narrative based on something else established in the lore/narrative.

However, in Mass Effect 3, we see that the reason for the ambiguity is not based on anything aforementioned in the narrative or lore. In reality, it's the lack of information that it's based on. As a reader (and even as a person), you base things that happen later in the story off of things that happen eariler in the story. Honestly, this really should go without saying. Anyways, if a writer describes a C4 explosion earlier in the story, and then introduces another C4 explosion later then you can assume that explosion will have the same tenacity as the first explosion. But yet, when the mass relays explode in the ending, we are supposed to "assume" that it is different this time? Yes, I know that Arrival is different because it was a bigger mass relay, but it still is a mass relay exploding. You cannot present things in an ending that was shown to have very negative consequences earlier in the story, and then assume your audience will "hope for the best". That, to me, makes no logical sense. I'm sorry, I don't care how smart someone claims to be, that is not how you tell a story.

I really think it goes without saying, if your audience wants desperately wants your ending not to be real and just a hallucination, I really think that should say something about the writing presented. And don't get me wrong, I love the IT. In fact I love speculating about things, but only when things have actual facts to go of off and not more and more conjecture.

The only two things I see people coming up with about the ending is:

1) This is why it's bad.
2) He was hallucinating or dreaming.

Okay, done rambling. Good plan. The biggest thing about all of this is people seem to forget, art has been changed before. Books, plays, movies and t.v.shows have all changed stuff in their narrative before due to fan outcry, even other video games have changed it before. So I really don't see why people think this a new thing. If we want games to be talking seriously as a narrative medium, then they should be up to the same criticism and scrutiny that other forms are media are. They should not excluded or separated like some people think they are.

P.S. If anyone does have a document, video or thread that explains why the ending is good, please message it to me. Additionally, if you thought the ending was good I would like to discuss it with you in a civil, non-condescending manner. Have a good day.



EDIT: Grammar check.  I've always failed at proofreading after I finish typing.  

Modifié par dayumdhuum, 03 avril 2012 - 07:43 .

[Taboo]

They ruined their fanbase in five minutes. That's an unprecedented achievement.

[pikey1969]

Taboo-XX wrote...

pikey1969 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

x-Killision-X wrote...

pikey1969 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Money is not an issue and I know that. Don't be fooled by this notion. They have plenty of money. If they simply added one good ending where Shepard lives and one failure ending a great many people would be fine. That's all they need to do.

Please educate us.

He's simply talking about giving people choice. A very simple concept. keep what we have and add A) utter failure ending and victory

Which would not be hard to implement.

Have you not been paying attention? If not to this situation, at least what's been said in the thread so far? Do you have zero inclination for even trying to understand how process of developing content works? Concept might be simple, but dealing with that concept right now is anything but.

I work with film footage. The concept is very similar in some regards. People need to understand that it isn't obscenly difficult. All you need to do is make some edits and add a text epilouge and everything would blow over.

Yea you're right. It would only still fail to satisfy majority of the people in Retake, anyone saying the endings were rushed/flawed, as well as people that didn't have problem with the current set of endings in the first place, oh and ****** all over the little creative integrity they have left.

You're probably not too far from the mark though. What you're describing is more or less what I expect, except in form of clarifications*, probably another minute or two breaking down how the normandy wound up the way it is, and they just rid themselves of the most glaring plothole nearly everyone that's played the game (retake or not) notes as being broken.

[FirstWiseman87]

i have no hope left for this company, ill stick around and see what they will do, its interesting, although they got the money from me already, they ain't getting anymore of it from now on. (sigh)

[Taboo]

pikey1969 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

pikey1969 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

x-Killision-X wrote...

pikey1969 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Money is not an issue and I know that. Don't be fooled by this notion. They have plenty of money. If they simply added one good ending where Shepard lives and one failure ending a great many people would be fine. That's all they need to do.

Please educate us.

He's simply talking about giving people choice. A very simple concept. keep what we have and add A) utter failure ending and victory

Which would not be hard to implement.

Have you not been paying attention? If not to this situation, at least what's been said in the thread so far? Do you have zero inclination for even trying to understand how process of developing content works? Concept might be simple, but dealing with that concept right now is anything but.

I work with film footage. The concept is very similar in some regards. People need to understand that it isn't obscenly difficult. All you need to do is make some edits and add a text epilouge and everything would blow over.

Yea you're right. It would only still fail to satisfy majority of the people in Retake, anyone saying the endings were rushed/flawed, as well as people that didn't have problem with the current set of endings in the first place, oh and ****** all over the little creative integrity they have left.

You're probably not too far from the mark though. What you're describing is more or less what I expect, except in form of clarifications*, probably another minute or two breaking down how the normandy wound up the way it is, and they just rid themselves of the most glaring plothole nearly everyone that's played the game (retake or not) notes as being broken.

If they do it right everything will blow over, but I'm not convinced they can fix it.

You can only fix so much with editing. It's a great tool, but you can't fix everything.

[1490]

Taboo-XX wrote...

If they do it right everything will blow over, but I'm not convinced they can fix it.

You can only fix so much with editing. It's a great tool, but you can't fix everything.

I'll maintain that I think this is a dangerous attitude to have on these forums right now.  A dev may not be reading this thread or ever read it, but if they see enough people essentially say "even if they do fix it, it won't be good enough," they won't have any reason to fix it because they already lost you as a customer.  Bioware has proven it's ability to put out good DLC based on fan feedback (making a DLC around Liara and including romance in it because of all the fan requests).  I'll give them the benefit of the doubt until they actually do F- it up, or they say definitely "we aren't going to change it."

[pikey1969]

 

Taboo-XX wrote...

If they do it right everything will blow over, but I'm not convinced they can fix it.

You can only fix so much with editing. It's a great tool, but you can't fix everything.

 

And hence my point.

Modifié par pikey1969, 03 avril 2012 - 07:49 .

[Taboo]

1490 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

If they do it right everything will blow over, but I'm not convinced they can fix it.

You can only fix so much with editing. It's a great tool, but you can't fix everything.

I'll maintain that I think this is a dangerous attitude to have on these forums right now.  A dev may not be reading this thread or ever read it, but if they see enough people essentially say "even if they do fix it, it won't be good enough," they won't have any reason to fix it because they already lost you as a customer.  Bioware has proven it's ability to put out good DLC based on fan feedback (making a DLC around Liara and including romance in it because of all the fan requests).  I'll give them the benefit of the doubt until they actually do F- it up, or they say definitely "we aren't going to change it."

They're probably well aware of my rantings by now and where I stand on the issue. I also sent them an eleven page letter detailing my concerns. I'll wait patiently until they make an announcement.

[eddieoctane]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I'm bothered by the fact that all this could go away if they admitted they made a mistake. What an awful position we've they've put themselves in.

Corrections in bold. No need to thank me.

Dusty Boy T wrote...

PAX... It's Bioware's last hope at gaining redemption.

I hope they use the chance right.

I can't hear/read/see any mention of the Penn Arcade Expo anymore without laughing a bit. Pax. It means "peace" in Latin. Pax Romana. Pax Americana. Boston will be anything but peaceful this weekend. In retrospect, there are probably many better choices to name a video game convention than "peace".

[Taboo]

Well, we'll just have to wait and see won't we/

[RenownedRyan]

Very fitting that this PAX East occurs on Good Friday, the anniversary of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. I imagine that if BioWare doesn't make a definitive statement they will be figuratively crucified by the fans.

Modifié par RenownedRyan, 03 avril 2012 - 07:59 .