120 réponses à ce sujet

[Stanley Woo]

Please cut out the name-calling in this discussion. thank you.

[streetmark]

Getorex wrote...

streetmark wrote...

YeKnight94 wrote...

Nothing is going to be done about it either :/

https://twitter.com/...278525194186752

well there goes my money to Bioware forever.

On a optimistic note, it COULD be OK because they could leave the endings (as such) as they are while ADDING endings and exposition on all of them.  This way, the MORONS who have no connection to logic, coherence, rationality, intelligence, the entire ME story from day 1...the hipsters and the terminally and clinically depressive will get to keep their ridiculous ending while others could get a rational, intelligent, thought-out, coherent ending.  Win-win.

The only viable way to make the current endings work in my opinion is IT, otherwise you are just adding more and more to crap that doesn't make sense. No way to fix the fact that at it's very core the ending right now just. doesn't. make. sense. 

I believe the saying is you can't polish a turd

[SalsaDMA]

maddlarkin wrote...

alot of stuff

Nicely put.

I have to be honest, I lost some respect for ZP after his article, and at the same time I got a bit more respect for miss Chobot as a human being after her apology, even though I think her initial outburst was unwarranted.

I will still watch the ZP 'reviews' in the future, as I still think he is funny to watch, I just won't really trust him anymore in the future

I think Bioware/EA aren't the only one losing consumer trust over this tragedy. Lots of 'gatekeepers/dependants' are showing themselves in a decidly unfavourable light towards consumers.

[_symphony]

streetmark wrote...

The only viable way to make the current endings work in my opinion is IT, otherwise you are just adding more and more to crap that doesn't make sense. No way to fix the fact that at it's very core the ending right now just. doesn't. make. sense. 

I believe the saying is you can't polish a turd

Or remove starchild, there's a video somewhere that skips the whole sequence, y'know, you end talking with Anderson, and then switches to the destroy cinematic. The weird thing about it, is that it works, sort of.

[Irune]

Nice media analysys. It is indeed unprecedental.

maddlarkin wrote...
Simply if Bioware honestly sought to create ‘speculation’ at the end of their trilogy it was for a reason other than concluding it. Resolution is one of the most basic mechanisms for ending a narrative and no writer could miss that.

I believe they failed like that. There weren't ready, PR tactics feeled more like muscle reflex, not much reasoning towards the threat. In an interview you linked, Bethesda writer  talks right about that, inability to predict . I think they did believe we would like it. So yeah, can't know for sure, it is likely more complex than that, but i like the drama in it.  Makes it easier for empathy.

Ps. Thanks for sticking around Stanly. 

Modifié par Irune, 03 avril 2012 - 11:37 .

[streetmark]

_symphony wrote...

streetmark wrote...

The only viable way to make the current endings work in my opinion is IT, otherwise you are just adding more and more to crap that doesn't make sense. No way to fix the fact that at it's very core the ending right now just. doesn't. make. sense. 

I believe the saying is you can't polish a turd

Or remove starchild, there's a video somewhere that skips the whole sequence, y'know, you end talking with Anderson, and then switches to the destroy cinematic. The weird thing about it, is that it works, sort of.

oh that's what I want without a doubt, extended anderson dialogue, destroy reapers, sexy times with miranda. But, their twitter posts make it sound like they won't ever remove the space brat

[kbct]

OP, great post. Well worth my time to read the whole thing.

[Alpha 1 Omega]

To the op well done a very compelling read.

[Irune]

streetmark wrote...

_symphony wrote...

streetmark wrote...

The only viable way to make the current endings work in my opinion is IT, otherwise you are just adding more and more to crap that doesn't make sense. No way to fix the fact that at it's very core the ending right now just. doesn't. make. sense. 

I believe the saying is you can't polish a turd

Or remove starchild, there's a video somewhere that skips the whole sequence, y'know, you end talking with Anderson, and then switches to the destroy cinematic. The weird thing about it, is that it works, sort of.

oh that's what I want without a doubt, extended anderson dialogue, destroy reapers, sexy times with miranda. But, their twitter posts make it sound like they won't ever remove the space brat

I am quate certain Bioware can manage an ounstanding endings, if they want to, with our without a child. That's what creativity is for.
But will they put enough effort in it ?

[_symphony]

The ending introduces a new character right in the very last moment, it replaces the main conflict of the game (is not about beating the reapers anymore, but solving a synthetics vs organics dilemma or something), and godchild takes control over everything. Shepard can destroy the reapers because godchild lets him, you only choose is the flavour of the ending godchild picked for you.

There's no clarification fixing this.

[YohkoOhno]

I think the concern over Artistic Integrity is not so much based on this situation, but concerns over people complaining and thus instead of studios taking risks, they'll always cave if fans get upset. I would have to see companies cave to "shippers", for instance. And critics like Yahtzee are concerned about the general lack of quality of games.

Atghunter posted a good summation of the PR techniques used

I think when it comes to PR, either both sides are wrong or none. In other words, once this guy got involved the Retake movement engaged in their own PR dirty tricks, which I think cheapens the outrage.

As far as Bioware "obfuscating"--it's possible they have a plan and just can't reveal it, stockholders and quarter plans and all that. Who knows. I do think EA is a little too formal when it comes to PR, but what can you do.

As far as what will happen with the ending--well, we'll see. If this was the plan all along it will happen when they are ready to tell us. Plus, it's likely they have a long term goal for the ME universe which might require them having a set ending to Shepard's storyline. That will take priority over letting fans dictate what Bioware should do.

If they still have angry fans, well, either one of two things will happen.

* If they make a major update and haven't planned it, don't expect it for at least a year.

* They might just cut their loses and end all the DLC early if it looks like a lose-lose proposition. If fans aren't going to be satisfied no matter what, they should just ignore it, or else just end the series. I have a feeling no matter what is done people will still be angry, so it might be more benefitial just to say "better luck next time". Or if their metrics say more people are playing MP than SP, then focus on that audience. (The metrics can help them tell if this is a minority or a majority).

[SearchXDestroy]

 All i can say is wow, i think you hit the nail on the head OP, amazing post

[RussianSpy27]

maddlarkin wrote...

Mass Effect 3 has caused something of a crisis for Bioware and EA and I thought it was time that someone did a more through look at the crisis, the cause of it. The way the PR handling methods of Bioware used has made the situation even worse by an order of magnitudes and the reasons behind the highly critical response to the fans out cry among the gaming and critical media and the likely reasons behind this. This is in all likelihood going to be rather a long post, so I beg your indulgence if your going to read it, but hopefully it’ll be interesting.
 

Very good post. What's reassuring to people like myself who are fans of the Indocrination Theory (assuming IGN editors have more inside knowledge than the "masses") is that they directly link (as if almost endorse) the Indocrination Theory on their website (as per my signature line). Of course, it's most likely just a section made by one editor who saw logic in the theory and may not in any way suggest that that is what BioWare is indeed doing. 

[StabGuy]

All your article reveals is that it would be most beneficial to clone you, and kill off the rest of the human race.

You are the only person out of millions who have played this game that was capable of researching the ordeal while collecting solid evidence along the way. Doing so allowed you to form a solid opinion based on facts, but not only that you can convey that opinion equally well with amazing clarity.

Bioware couldn't do it.
The media couldn't do it.
Fans couldn't do it.

Very sad state of our culture.

[Dude_in_the_Room]

That wasn't too long to read....no way.

[Shelled]

I duno about you StabGuy but I'm pretty sure the fans are saying it like it is while the media is constantly proving to us how far deep they are in the rabbit hole they are of these major gaming companies.

When was the last time you saw a decent review, seriously bash a large title? By all rights dragon age 2 shouldn't have gotten a score above 5/10.

Think about it, if you're a gaming company and you want to advertise your game despite it's flaws and you OWN the people doing the reviews then it's a win-win for them. This time the fans finally realized this bs went too far.

We should have shut this crap down with a full stop after dragon age 2. It's pathetic it took an ending as bad as this + chobot, for people to realize how bad it is.

Modifié par Shelled, 04 avril 2012 - 12:43 .

[thedosbox]

I considered reporting this thread for discussing the ending in the non-spoilers forum, but the categories in the dropdown aren't appropiate.

So question to the mods

When are you going to start restricting all "ending" threads to the spoiler forum?

It's bad enough that every special snowflake seems to want to start their own thread about the ending drama, as well as turn every thread into yetanotherdiscussionontheending, but could we at least ensure they're all in the right forum?

Especially when the OP includes a suggestion that anyone who disagrees with him is a stooge for bioware.

Modifié par thedosbox, 04 avril 2012 - 12:49 .

[Uszi]

The 39 minute video was pretty good, thanks for that.

I don't think there's a crisis. BW is going to double down on the current ending by releasing "clarifying" DLC, which will just make the ending more complicated and lame. And then, they'll be able to claim the moral high ground by claiming that even when they "gave in" to "the demands of the fanbase," we still weren't happy.

Modifié par Uszi, 04 avril 2012 - 01:03 .

[Apollo Taren]

Uszi wrote...

The 39 minute video was pretty good, thanks for that.

I don't think there's a crisis. BW is going to double down on the current ending by releasing "clarifying" DLC, which will just make the ending more complicated and lame. And then, they'll be able to claim the moral high ground by claiming that even when they "gave in" to "the demands of the fanbase," we still weren't happy.

That's what I'm worried about happening. We'll see whether it actually does or not, but whatever happens will affect my future buying Bioware and EA games.

The original post is quite a compelling read, by the way, and has added a fair bit to my thoughts on the whole issue. Didn't change anything, just gave me some more ammo to hold the line with.

[streamlock]

Good post.

It is kinda strange actually....I find it is usually the 'hardcore' fans of any particular group (not just ME3) that is long on rhetoric and short on facts-and resort to character assassination tactics and so forth. (You just don't get RPG's or Sci-Fi, just a bunch of Modern Dorkfare drone) what have you. -typical nerd rage.

It's strange to see the sides flipped.

I"m sure there are some lurkers around that like it that won't dive down the "art,entitled,whatever" BS hole-but I imagine they are loath to dive into the discussion. I've had a couple respond to my posts-but it has been purely on lore/logic topics. Those tend to remain somewhat more civil.

[78stonewobble]

maddlarkin wrote...

And as Ben Croshaw says, “it would set a horrible precedent if they're serious about actually changing the ending in line with some kind of democratically agreed upon alternative… but sooner or later the ****heads of the world are just going to have to accept that there are people who know better than them” 

And then those ****heads went forth and wrote the ME3 ending.



Regarding ending critique though...

Yes, I miss something of a Shepard plus Li happy ending but...

Ok, there was supposedly 16 different endings. Atleast the 3 end choices and whatever your fleet strength gave of results.

These multiple endings still boil down to the following "differences":

Explosion colour.
Something that happens in the lower right side of the picture during 1 whole second of video.
A texture/graphical overlay.
An optional extra 1-2 second video addition.

Thats the difference on something that should show wildly different futures for billions of people (loved ones and unknowns) over a whole galaxy.


Personally I'd have preferred a damn text epilogue instead...

EDIT: So critique of the ending is not necessarily based off wanting a happy, whether every single plothole gets explained or making logical sense.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 04 avril 2012 - 02:01 .

[TJ_Mullet]

streetmark wrote...

YeKnight94 wrote...

Nothing is going to be done about it either :/

https://twitter.com/...278525194186752

well there goes my money to Bioware forever.

Just FYI, that tweet no longer exists.

[HOUSE MDD]

Well said op i could'nt of said it better myself. I do hope its resolved soon as ive started to see various posts that if it is fixed/changed but is made chargable DLC there will be more uproar etc etc. Tbh i would of loved it if Bioware stuck to their original " proper sense making ending " of the dark energy ending which is kinda what the series is all about. My guess is 90% of the players would'nt of even read the leaked script.

[Heavenly_King]

I will justify why the ending is wrong in a much more simpler and pragmatical way.

The problem in this "crisis" isn’t that we didn’t get the ending we wanted, it’s that we didn’t get the ending Bioware itself promised it would have pre-release. Bioware can make their stories however they please, but if they make commitments then as a business I expect them to deliver on them in the final product.

Casey Hudson said “It’s not even in any way like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C…..The endings have a lot more sophistication and variety in them". Now can anyone really tell me with a straight face how choosing between Destroy(Red), Control(Blue), and Synthesis(Green)for an ending is anything BUT an A, B, C ending? This statement was from January, where they had to have had the ending hammered out. Which means they told us false information.

Here’s Mac Walters saying “Because a lot of these plot threads are concluding and because it’s being brought to a finale, since you were a part of architecting how they got to how they were, you will definitely sense how they close was because of the decisions you made and because of the decisions you didn’t make”. Now we know as a FACT that the only influencing factor in your endings is your EMS at the end of the game, none of your actual choices are at all relevant. Did you cure the genophage? Doesn’t matter you get the RGB ending. Did you save the quarians or geth or both? Doesn’t matter you get the RGB ending. Did you play through the series as a symbol of unity and tolerance or of victory at all costs? Doesn’t matter you get RGB as an ending.

Here’s Mac again saying “There are many different endings. We wouldn’t do it any other way. How could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can’t say any more than that…”. Now can you honestly tell me that everyone getting to chose between these endings regardless of previous choices in series is anything but being forced into a bespoke ending everyone gets?

Now if you come up with a story for yourself, or are giving it away for free then go nuts, I won’t complain it’s your prerogative. However, the second you start asking me to PAY for the game, it is no longer just art, it’s also a product, and must be held up to the same standards as any other product.

When they promised us things about the ending, part of their artistic freedom logically goes out the window. When a consumer pays for a product, art or no, there needs to be an understanding that the product will function as advertised. Mass Effect 3 did not fufill it’s promises, promises most fans based their purchases off of. As such, Bioware entitlement to do whatever they want with the story was negated (see what I did there?).

If an artist sells me a painting of a horse, but when he reveals it to me after I’ve paid and it’s actually a painting of a car, he can’t defend himself by saying “I can paint whatever I want because it’s my art”. Sure it may be a good painting of a car, and maybe some people even like it better than a painting of a horse, but it’s still not what you told me I was paying for.

Another less abstract example for people here. I walk into Gamestop and buy a copy of God of War. I get home, open the case and find out they gave me a copy of Call of Duty. The next day I go back and try and get the game I payed for and the clerk yells at me “Don’t you see that Call of Duty is better than God of War!? Stop being so entitled, you paid for a game and I gave you a game, get out and stop whining!”. This is the situation we are at now with ME3.

The bottom line is Bioware did not give us the game they advertised. In any other instance keeping your promises is called basic customer service, in games it’s apparently ‘entitlement’. Yes I am entitled to get what I was told I would receive when I pay for a product. Anyone who thinks differently doesn’t seem to know how business works, and regardless of whether or not ME3 is art, Bioware is a business.