120 réponses à ce sujet

[rizuno]

Well done OP, read it all. Is there ANYWHERE a defended well-rounded argument for the endings and for BioWare to keep their much vaunted "Artistic Integrity"?

I would be so very interested.

[Edit: I forgotted my evil face!  ]

Modifié par rizuno, 04 avril 2012 - 04:22 .

[Traim Eisenblut]

rizuno wrote...

Well done OP, read it all. Is there ANYWHERE a defended well-rounded argument for the endings and for BioWare to keep their much vaunted "Artistic Integrity"?

I would be so very interested.

Yes. Changing the ending is a dangerous precedent that would enslave corporations to act in future games to the will of their customers, jeopardizing all artstic integrity in the world!

/irony

No, just deflections and insults so far.

[rizuno]

Traim Eisenblut wrote...

rizuno wrote...

Well done OP, read it all. Is there ANYWHERE a defended well-rounded argument for the endings and for BioWare to keep their much vaunted "Artistic Integrity"?

I would be so very interested.

Yes. Changing the ending is a dangerous precedent that would enslave corporations to act in future games to the will of their customers, jeopardizing all artstic integrity in the world!

/irony

No, just deflections and insults so far.

LOL funny corollary just came to me.  Even better, it's Monty Python.
Bioware/EA Overlords are the Black Knight and this lot is Arthur, King of the Britons.  
ARTHUR/this lot: Look, you stupid bastard, you've got no arms left.
BLACK KNIGHT/EABW: Yes I have.
ARTHUR/us: Look!
BLACK KNIGHT/them: Just a flesh wound.
[bang]
ARTHUR/us: Look, stop that.
BLACK KNIGHT/them: Chicken! Chicken!
ARTHUR/us: Look, I'll have your leg. Right!
[whop]
BLACK KNIGHT/them: Right, I'll do you for that!
ARTHUR/us: You'll what?
BLACK KNIGHT/them: Come 'ere!
ARTHUR/us: What are you going to do, bleed on me?
BLACK KNIGHT/them: I'm invincible!
ARTHUR/us: You're a loony.

The back and forth battle of the articles, forums and various media content lol.

Well, it amuses me anway.

[Praetor Knight]

The ending needs vast improvement, and so does the dream sequences, I really hate chasing that kid.

[Getorex]

Here is how the Square Enix developers of Deus Ex: Human Revolution respond to criticism (like adults):

Game designer at Square Enix, Francois Lapikas, has been talking Deus Ex: Human Revolution at GDC. We love that game. Tom even awarded it an outstanding 94%

Tom hates one bit of Human Revolution though: the boss fights. "They are terrible. And they cannot be avoided." he said in his review. "The game is so conflicted about this that there’s even a Steam achievement for completing it without killing anyone, which apologetically adds that boss fights don’t count." Ouch.

Unexpectedly, some of the design team agree. Francois has offered a sincere apology for the four bosses that featured in Human Revolution.

“We didn’t know what they were for. We saw them as a way to break the tension,” admitted the dev. But the fights weren’t designed until well into the game development and the team were pressed for time. “We figured by putting in enough ammo in the room, we would be fine and could move on... next time we’ll think about them more. They were a big part of the game and we should have put more effort into them. We are truly sorry about that."

They then proved that they "listened" and released DLC that proved they listened. Now if only Bioware would model their behavior after Square Enix...

[kbct]

MarkVsColin wrote...

TjM78 wrote...

I can't see them changing anything. They made their money and are done with ME. Why would they care

Because the could make alot more money  

Or lose less money

Either way, it's better.

[TakezoDunmer2005]

rizuno wrote...

Traim Eisenblut wrote...

rizuno wrote...

Well done OP, read it all. Is there ANYWHERE a defended well-rounded argument for the endings and for BioWare to keep their much vaunted "Artistic Integrity"?

I would be so very interested.

Yes. Changing the ending is a dangerous precedent that would enslave corporations to act in future games to the will of their customers, jeopardizing all artstic integrity in the world!

/irony

No, just deflections and insults so far.

LOL funny corollary just came to me.  Even better, it's Monty Python.
Bioware/EA Overlords are the Black Knight and this lot is Arthur, King of the Britons.  
ARTHUR/this lot: Look, you stupid bastard, you've got no arms left.
BLACK KNIGHT/EABW: Yes I have.
ARTHUR/us: Look!
BLACK KNIGHT/them: Just a flesh wound.
[bang]
ARTHUR/us: Look, stop that.
BLACK KNIGHT/them: Chicken! Chicken!
ARTHUR/us: Look, I'll have your leg. Right!
[whop]
BLACK KNIGHT/them: Right, I'll do you for that!
ARTHUR/us: You'll what?
BLACK KNIGHT/them: Come 'ere!
ARTHUR/us: What are you going to do, bleed on me?
BLACK KNIGHT/them: I'm invincible!
ARTHUR/us: You're a loony.

The back and forth battle of the articles, forums and various media content lol.

Well, it amuses me anway.

...You silly Nerd you...

You're a loony...But in a good way!

OT, I only read as far as the spoilers were concerned as there is still a minuscule chance that I might buy this in the distant future...Like when it's released at gog.com!  I still feel haunted by the knowledge that Bioware has made a bad decision with selling their company to EA, why oh why did they not take the same route as Obsidian!?...Then, maybe we wouldn't be having this discussion...

[Kaloneous]

Getorex wrote...

Here is how the Square Enix developers of Deus Ex: Human Revolution respond to criticism (like adults):

Game designer at Square Enix, Francois Lapikas, has been talking Deus Ex: Human Revolution at GDC. We love that game. Tom even awarded it an outstanding 94%

Tom hates one bit of Human Revolution though: the boss fights. "They are terrible. And they cannot be avoided." he said in his review. "The game is so conflicted about this that there’s even a Steam achievement for completing it without killing anyone, which apologetically adds that boss fights don’t count." Ouch.

Unexpectedly, some of the design team agree. Francois has offered a sincere apology for the four bosses that featured in Human Revolution.

“We didn’t know what they were for. We saw them as a way to break the tension,” admitted the dev. But the fights weren’t designed until well into the game development and the team were pressed for time. “We figured by putting in enough ammo in the room, we would be fine and could move on... next time we’ll think about them more. They were a big part of the game and we should have put more effort into them. We are truly sorry about that."

They then proved that they "listened" and released DLC that proved they listened. Now if only Bioware would model their behavior after Square Enix...

Thank you Getorex, this entire quote made my day. It shows there is hope for the gaming industry after all.

[Deepo78]

Getorex wrote...

Here is how the Square Enix developers of Deus Ex: Human Revolution respond to criticism (like adults):

Game designer at Square Enix, Francois Lapikas, has been talking Deus Ex: Human Revolution at GDC. We love that game. Tom even awarded it an outstanding 94%

Tom hates one bit of Human Revolution though: the boss fights. "They are terrible. And they cannot be avoided." he said in his review. "The game is so conflicted about this that there’s even a Steam achievement for completing it without killing anyone, which apologetically adds that boss fights don’t count." Ouch.

Unexpectedly, some of the design team agree. Francois has offered a sincere apology for the four bosses that featured in Human Revolution.

“We didn’t know what they were for. We saw them as a way to break the tension,” admitted the dev. But the fights weren’t designed until well into the game development and the team were pressed for time. “We figured by putting in enough ammo in the room, we would be fine and could move on... next time we’ll think about them more. They were a big part of the game and we should have put more effort into them. We are truly sorry about that."

They then proved that they "listened" and released DLC that proved they listened. Now if only Bioware would model their behavior after Square Enix...

But...but...those Boss Fights were art! They can't be changed just because they were frustrating and made no sense! 

[Kargsure]

What I have gotten tired of is the constant reference to those that dislike the ending as a "vocal minority" when there are web polls out there (and not just on BSN) with tens of thousands of responses the vast majority (in excess of 90%) dislike the ending. When someone points to these the respose is "10,000 is just a small percentage of the overall products shipped".

I actually spoke to someone who works for a market reasearch company. While talking to them I mentioned the number of units shipped as being 1.5 Million (not sure how accurate that is, but was one of the figures I had seen at that time), and was actually shocked to learn that to gain an accurate indication of opinions with a group that large, it is only necessary to use a sample size of just 750 people (I would have thought the number needed to be higher but apparently that's the accepted figure in the industry), so having 10,000+ respondants more than covers that even if the number of units shipped is higher than the figure I used.

In addition I hear the arguement that webpolls are inaccurate, which is true, and for this reason the industry gives them a margin of error of 20% - so from that we can see if 90% of respondants of a poll dislike the ending then with the margin of error taken into account it's possible to say that between 70% & 110% of all those who purchased/played the game dislike the ending - even at the low end of 70% you can hardly call the group a minority.

[JBONE27]

I love how the pro-enders say that, "There is a silent majority who agree with us." I disagree. I think the majority of people who bought the game don't care enough about the game to talk about it. Maybe they like the ending, maybe they don't. They don't love it, and they don't hate it.

I think that most people who have played the game dislike the ending, but rather than spend their time complaining, they simply moved onto something else. Granted I'm judging that position by the majority of the boards/videos/ and reviews I've seen, and not on a survey of everyone who bought every game.

[78stonewobble]

monkelus wrote...

For the sake of time, and because I do not have the resources and links I need to present a full argument; I'll leave this short and based purely on documented fact.

3,500,000 copies of Mass Effect 3 have reportedly been sold, of that amount the 'Take Back' movement has amassed 59,491 followers. The OP's argument is well put and his points eloquently stated, but for a movement to claim they speak for the majority, when in fact the data shows they represent less than 1.7% of the user base is a little bit misleading.

I for one would be very uncomfortable for any decisions to be made on any matter if the ruling was based on the opinion of that small a demographic, no matter how vocal, or well represented.

Well in that case it should be pretty easy to gather say 250.000 pro ending people on facebook.

Personally I dislike the ending but haven't joined anything on FB if that's the numbers you're going by.

[kbct]

Kargsure wrote...
In addition I hear the arguement that webpolls are inaccurate, which is true, and for this reason the industry gives them a margin of error of 20% - so from that we can see if 90% of respondants of a poll dislike the ending then with the margin of error taken into account it's possible to say that between 70% & 110% of all those who purchased/played the game dislike the ending - even at the low end of 70% you can hardly call the group a minority.

Exactly. Even a biased, self-selecting poll has predictive power when the sample is large enough and the results are lopsided enough. A poll with 70K+ votes showing only 2% like the ending as-is has predictive power.

I'm glad to hear someone in the industry confirm it.

Hey, where are all the people that liked the ending?

[CARL_DF90]

A wonderfully well written and thought out post op, and yes I read it all. It only helps to emphasize and further elaborate the problems this has generated for EVERYONE. This includes the fans, consumers, and Bioware as a whole. To quote Commander Shepard, "we need to put it right". We'll see what happens.

[The man of myth]

HA. the crisis is in your head and your little community of demanders. EA and Bioware will be just fine

[CARL_DF90]

Congratulations. You missed the point entirely.

[Shelled]

good post. Hold the line.

[SpideyKnight]

I didn't mind Jess's inclusion in ME3. I didn't like what she said about fans, but that doesn't really sway my opinion on her inclusion in the game. She's a side character, nothing more, nothing less and as such irrelevant to my enjoyment of the game. I understand why supports the endings though. If she's nice, she may get more inclusions in games. Which might be what she wants. I can only surmise and guess, so it is what it is.

[maddlarkin]

The man of myth wrote...

HA. the crisis is in your head and your little community of demanders. EA and Bioware will be just fine

I wouldn't bet money on this, upset you customers enough and they will simply go somewhere else and considering Bioware specialise in games with a completion time in the 25-30+ hour range plus replays and DLC. Thats a large investment in time as well as money from your customers and they do feel betrayed.

Trust to complete a story and in a way which rewards the emotional as well as temporal investment made by the player is what Bioware sells its products on. Speaking personally, I don't think I could give them my trust for such an investment of my time and emotions again.

This is the Crisis they Bioware has to address, how will its consumers ever trust it again? 

[Riot.Demosthenes]

This is not a post for Bioware. This is not a post for the fans. This is a post for Shepard. Not the cgi rendered figure on the screen, but the character who has become as real to us as any celebrity or professional athlete.
I still cling to a flicker of hope, regardless of how much I want to yield. I hope Bioware actually shows some true integrity, and fulfills what they began years ago: progress in a medium that has far too often been overlooked and ridiculed as juvenile. They were making something fantastic and incredible and now they have tarnished the progress that we had come to expect of them.
Perhaps that was our fault. Perhaps just mine.
Regardless, there isn't much time left before we see just how Bioware intends to "defend it's artistic integrity." Summer is coming, and we'll see an answer. And, depending on that answer, this may be my farewell to a company I as of yet haven't given up on.
Perhaps it's foolish. Perhaps it's petty. But it's my choice. And many others, or perhaps none, share my opinions. Regardless, we'll see how things fare. And if Bioware and EA are more interested in their "artistic integrity" than simply respecting their own stories, their true creativity, and the feelings of their audience, then this will be a bittersweet farewell.