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Why so quick to de-merit Indoctrination Theory?


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#51
Eshaye

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Apollo-XL5 wrote...

Caz Tirin wrote...

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

Because the haters dont like the idea that bioware pulled the wool over their eyes and basically indoctrinated the players.

And the IT sheep don't like that BioWare actually wrote a bad ending so they "made one up".

Sorry but that is bull****, bioware who have made a brillaint trilogy would not just blow it right at the end, and if you bring up DA2, I will have to remind you that ME is made by a different team inside bioware.
haters=peckers (want to know what a ****** is....look up one of my old posts.


I don't know people demonify DA2 as much as they do. It's a good game, it just should not have followed DAO or been called DA2. Take it as it's own and it has it's merits. 

The teams may be different but they still do share information, DA2 took a lot from ME2, sadly.... I think they should have tried it with another title, but there it is. 

#52
Saberchic

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Mbednar wrote...

Saberchic wrote...

The IT theory has holes. It's not perfect. Why favor that over the "it was real" theory?


The current story has holes.  Why favor it?  XD

That said, they've all but blatantly said that the IT is false.  Sucks, cuz the current ending leaves much to be desired.  Clarification will be garbage too :(


Yeah, I'm more than a little nervous about what they plan to do about clarifying it. After all, they did outright lie about what we should expect to get with this game. :(

#53
spacehamsterZH

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Because all the evidence for IT can just as well be explained with lazy writing and a rushed production. Occam's razor.

#54
Dendio1

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Anyone else tired of speculations? What's it gonna be bioware?

#55
Tiax Rules All

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Apollo-XL5 wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

I think it'll just show squad members on the ground, anderson following you into the beam, the beam 'closing', then cortez coming down and non-squad members checking/getting your squad members back to the normandy

THen the normandy running away as fast as possible and showing sheps crew to be total cowards.
I dont think so.


twitter.com/#!/JessicaMerizan/status/179828285327409152

#56
Apollo-XL5

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Saberchic wrote...

Apollo-XL5 wrote...
Wait you think that the original ending makes MORE SENSE than indoctrination, the most powerful weapob the reapers possess.  I still think that the extended ending will show shep either give in/break free of indoctrination only to find that the crucible is a reaper trap and then kills harbinger who is infact the real target(being the alpha reaper...you know, largest and oldest) and the defeats the reapers and earth and the galaxy are saved and all the sacrifices that you and you friends (mordin, legion etc) made actually mattered.


I'm not saying I take the kid at face value. I thought his logic was bogus and could potentially be the reapers last line of defense with Control being making everyone indoctrinated, Synthesis also making people indoctrinated, and Destroy being a giant screw you to the reapers.

I just want an ending that makes sense, and as it stands, whether it's IT or reality, the ending does not deliver what Bioware promised.

Side note: I would have loved some kind of epic stand off with Harby. Totally felt shafted that we didn't get that.

We will
the ending isnt complete, thats obvious, escpecially since the moment you see shep breathing, the disc starts trying to load (the rest of the ending) but it cant and so jumps straight to the credits.

#57
Tiax Rules All

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Dendio1 wrote...

Anyone else tired of speculations? What's it gonna be bioware?

VERY tired. Friday cannot come fast enough. If no good info there. I might spontaniously combust.

#58
Emberwake

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There are a few versions of the indoctrination theory, and each has its own strengths.

Whether or not the Prothean VI on Thessia proves Shepard wasn't indoctrinated at that point, he may have been by the end. Check out the codex entry for "Indoctrination", and especially the part about "rapid indoctrination" that was added in ME2.

#59
The Mercenary55

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Agree with Apollo, its not the people dont like biowares current ending "lots of speculation" they said. this is our speculation which helps us make sense of that horrendous ending. stop trying to belittle what we believe Caz Tirin.

#60
cavs25

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Lots of speculation!

Modifié par cavs25, 03 avril 2012 - 11:25 .


#61
BananaBlitz

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Apollo-XL5 wrote...


Wait you think that the original ending makes MORE SENSE than indoctrination, the most powerful weapob the reapers possess.  I still think that the extended ending will show shep either give in/break free of indoctrination only to find that the crucible is a reaper trap and then kills harbinger who is infact the real target(being the alpha reaper...you know, largest and oldest) and the defeats the reapers and earth and the galaxy are saved and all the sacrifices that you and you friends (mordin, legion etc) made actually mattered.


So if they did make ending DLC like this what would happen to all the players who did not pick Destroy with EMS of 5000, what people believe to be the ending that Shepard breaks free from Indoc if I am not mistaken, would the game just be like oh sorry you picked the wrong ending you are now indoctrinated now go back and try again? If this has been addressed in the indoc thread let me know.

#62
Occulo

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RainyDayLover wrote...
Because that would mean Bioware shipped out an incomplete game and the game has no ending.

There are people who don't think BioWare is above doing that now. Personally, I think that's the case, since the game ended with an old man telling some kid he'll tell another story about "the Shepherd" followed by an advertisement for DLC.

The indoctrination theory is compelling. More pleasant than being left only to think you've just destroyed all the mass relays, destroyed any ships flying in a system with a mass relay, that your teammates got right up after being blasted by a reaper and abandoned you (what the hell Garrus?), and that the game really did just end with three explosions with small differences. But to me, it's still just speculation. Compelling speculation, but speculation.

One little thing. I've heard one of the arguments for IT is that the trees you see when Shepard is limping around are the same ones you see in the dream. After seeing the ending and Tali's face freak hand, I don't put BioWare above shamelessly reusing art assets.

#63
Apollo-XL5

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BananaBlitz wrote...

Apollo-XL5 wrote...


Wait you think that the original ending makes MORE SENSE than indoctrination, the most powerful weapob the reapers possess.  I still think that the extended ending will show shep either give in/break free of indoctrination only to find that the crucible is a reaper trap and then kills harbinger who is infact the real target(being the alpha reaper...you know, largest and oldest) and the defeats the reapers and earth and the galaxy are saved and all the sacrifices that you and you friends (mordin, legion etc) made actually mattered.


So if they did make ending DLC like this what would happen to all the players who did not pick Destroy with EMS of 5000, what people believe to be the ending that Shepard breaks free from Indoc if I am not mistaken, would the game just be like oh sorry you picked the wrong ending you are now indoctrinated now go back and try again? If this has been addressed in the indoc thread let me know.

Well it may have you team mates trying to reason with you or it might just give you a bad ending.  But the whole sequence (the citadel/catalyst) is a test and if you pass it, then you will get to see the ending you want with all you choices and their consquences with it.
Doesnt that sound better then the original (incomplete) ending?

#64
Apollo-XL5

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Occulo wrote...

RainyDayLover wrote...
Because that would mean Bioware shipped out an incomplete game and the game has no ending.

There are people who don't think BioWare is above doing that now. Personally, I think that's the case, since the game ended with an old man telling some kid he'll tell another story about "the Shepherd" followed by an advertisement for DLC.

The indoctrination theory is compelling. More pleasant than being left only to think you've just destroyed all the mass relays, destroyed any ships flying in a system with a mass relay, that your teammates got right up after being blasted by a reaper and abandoned you (what the hell Garrus?), and that the game really did just end with three explosions with small differences. But to me, it's still just speculation. Compelling speculation, but speculation.

One little thing. I've heard one of the arguments for IT is that the trees you see when Shepard is limping around are the same ones you see in the dream. After seeing the ending and Tali's face freak hand, I don't put BioWare above shamelessly reusing art assets.

Why do i get the feeling that in reality the crucible will destroy the mass relay network and all the sectors surrounding them.  IT would be like a reaper A bomb, to be used as a last resort.

#65
Dendio1

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If Indoctrination Theory is declared false on friday then I want bioware to read down the full list of every piece of evidence we have amassed pointing towards it.

Then I want them to look the camera in the eye and declare bad writing for each and every piece of supporting evidence, one at a time. Hopefully that will drive home how horribly they screwed up.

If Indoctrination Theory is declared correct, then the dlc should have been in production all month and possibly before hand. I'd like it within two weeks

That is all

Modifié par Dendio1, 03 avril 2012 - 11:33 .


#66
humansrsuperior

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RainyDayLover wrote...

Because that would mean Bioware shipped out an incomplete game and the game has no ending.


This.  Which frankly I'd still prefer that over the ending we got.  :unsure:

Someone else mentioned wanting a showdown with Harbinger and being disappointed it didn't happen.  I add my voice to that; it was one of the biggest things I was looking forward to, and we didn't get it.  

#67
ForceXev

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I'm with you OP.


Saberchic wrote...

1) How do the arms get open  if Shep isn't really on the Citadel?


They didn't.  That whole sequence is part of the hallucination until you see Shepard awaken at the end of the Destroy scenario.  The Citadel arms are still closed.

2) TIM being on the Citadel is part of the indoctrination because why would he even be there?


TIM is there as a representation of the Reapers' indoctrination within Shepard's mind, which makes a lot more sense than the boy from Earth representing the Catalyst.  In the case of the Indoctrination Theory, the boy represents Shepard's failure to save people on Earth, which the Reapers were using to break his will.

Also, Anderson says the walls moved when you are walking to the platform. IT people say there is only one way there (to the platform). The path could have changed to guide Shep to where our favorite starchild wanted Shep to go.


No, when Shepard starts on the path Anderson hasn't reached the end yet.  They couldn't both be on the same path at the same time, and it was the only path.  Unless Anderson's path somehow disappeared and walls closed up to hide it, which makes no sense at all.  It's possible I guess, but doesn't fit.

This is subjective. When I experienced the dreams the first time, I thought this could be the case. There were whispers and shades in Shep's mind. However, they could just as easily be the things which haunt Shepard during sleep.


True, the dreams could just be dreams/nightmares.  Or not.

4) The lovely infinite ammo pistol.


I don't put much stock in that piece of evidence.  I think it's a gameplay decision.

You've picked on some of the weakest evidence for IT.  Now for the real evidence:

Appearance of trees and bushes around Shepard after "waking up" from being hit by the Reaper beam.  There were no trees there before, and they make it look a lot like his dreams/nightmares.

The beam leads Shepard to a room with only one control panel which just so happens to be the one Shepard needs to open the Citadel arms, and he faces no opposition at all on the Citadel.

The Illusive Man is able to force Shepard to shoot Anderson.  We have never seen an indoctrinated agent of any kind have the power to influence other people's actions.  Only if it is an illusion, or if Shepard is indoctrinated himself could he be physically manipulated in this way by the Reapers.

The Catalyst taking the form of the boy.  There is no reason for the catalyst to tap into Shepard's mind and use that image.  The Reapers however would use that image because it what they have been using all along in the dreams to break his will.

The voice of the Catalyst -- center channel = the boy.  Left channel = female Shepard.  Right channel = male Shepard.  It is coming out of Shepard's mind.

The three choices at the end:
Control the Reapers -- As represented by the indocrinated character The Illusive Man:  "That's what seperates us, Shepard.  Where you see a means to destroy, I see a way to control, to dominate and harness the Reapers' power.  Imagine how strong humanity would be if we controlled them?"

Synthesis -- As represented by the indocrtinated character Saren:  "The relationship is symbiotic.  Organic and machine intertwined.  A union of flesh and steel.  The strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither.  I am a vision of the future, Shepard.  The evolution of all organic life.  This is our destiny.  Join Soverign and experience a true rebirth."

Destroy -- The correct option.  The option that allows Shepard to survive, to break free from indoctrination, despite the Catalyst hinting that he would die too because he is partly synthetic.  The only optioin that shows Shepard waking up at the end.

Modifié par ForceXev, 03 avril 2012 - 11:38 .


#68
liggy002

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Blind Rapture wrote...

There is the PROCESS of becoming indoctrinated and then there is BEING indoctrinated.

Kai Leng's actions are actively being influenced by the reapers. Shepard's are not. This is very obvious and debunks the strongest defense against the Indoctrination Theory. Assuming that the VI would be able to detect the slightest hint of the process is as much grasping at straws as even the weakest IT evidence.

Also, saying that the evidence isn't "obvious" enough, is missing the entire point. Bioware wants us to speculate and debate. What's the point in all that if they put irrefutable and easily noticed evidence?

But besides all that. Why do so many WANT to refute the idea of the IT? Why do we have to take everything so seriously and at face value? I, personslly love this sort of thing. It reminds me of Valve's brilliant ARGs and the days before the internet, when video games were often shrouded in mystery with rumors abound. Before you could easily rip into a disc and find out for sure.

I want the Indoctrination Theory to be true. I want this to have been their plan all along and I want them to spend more time that their normal deadline would have allowed to make and even more epic ending. And the waiting just makes it that much bigger of a pay off.

Why do we need everything immediately and up front? Wouldn't you rather have a better experience in the long run? I know I would. 


I'm on the same page as you with this.

#69
liggy002

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rachellouise wrote...

This is the thing people want the IT to be true, so they see 'evidence' of it everywhere. Random things ,which would not normally fit together, become some conspiracy



So Shepard waking up after the Citadel explodes is just making up evidence?  The only way he could have survived that is if he dreamed it.  On the flip side, you could believe that they will find some assinine way to get him on the ground and under rubble without being IT, but you know that will be crap compared to the indoctrination theory.

#70
leewells

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Blind Rapture wrote...

There is the PROCESS of becoming indoctrinated and then there is BEING indoctrinated.

Kai Leng's actions are actively being influenced by the reapers. Shepard's are not. This is very obvious and debunks the strongest defense against the Indoctrination Theory. Assuming that the VI would be able to detect the slightest hint of the process is as much grasping at straws as even the weakest IT evidence.

Also, saying that the evidence isn't "obvious" enough, is missing the entire point. Bioware wants us to speculate and debate. What's the point in all that if they put irrefutable and easily noticed evidence?

But besides all that. Why do so many WANT to refute the idea of the IT? Why do we have to take everything so seriously and at face value? I, personslly love this sort of thing. It reminds me of Valve's brilliant ARGs and the days before the internet, when video games were often shrouded in mystery with rumors abound. Before you could easily rip into a disc and find out for sure.

I want the Indoctrination Theory to be true. I want this to have been their plan all along and I want them to spend more time that their normal deadline would have allowed to make and even more epic ending. And the waiting just makes it that much bigger of a pay off.

Why do we need everything immediately and up front? Wouldn't you rather have a better experience in the long run? I know I would. 


Because it is one thing to choke down a really crappy ending, but to also have to choke down that BioWare planned to screw them by selling the "conclusion to the series" in two parts scares the hell out of those folks and makes the ideal unapproachable.

#71
leewells

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liggy002 wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

This is the thing people want the IT to be true, so they see 'evidence' of it everywhere. Random things ,which would not normally fit together, become some conspiracy



So Shepard waking up after the Citadel explodes is just making up evidence?  The only way he could have survived that is if he dreamed it.  On the flip side, you could believe that they will find some assinine way to get him on the ground and under rubble without being IT, but you know that will be crap compared to the indoctrination theory.


Seriously, you'd be better off yelling at a wall man.  There is SO MUCH fact, so many "hints" peppered throughout the game that were BEYOND INTENTIONAL that they immeidately discount as "made up".  They'll defend it with their lives that your version of lore-supported indoctrination is false while their version of space-magic is fact.

So, the best way to argue is to debunk space magic, which quickly falls appart without debate with just 10 simple facts... They start with:

1) The destruction of a mass relay releases the energy of a super-nova -- containing such a blast is space-magic under the law, "energy can be created nor destroyed".

2) The child is a ghost...  Holy Supersticious Space Magic Batman!

3) Joker teleports to the mass relay on the outer orbit of pluto with sheps squad mates between the time it took him to Scotty up and push the button.  CAPTAIN! I CON'T GIVE'R ANY MORE SPACE MAGIC!

4) The immeaculate conc-synthesis... EEE PPP III CCC SPACE MAGIC.

5) Marauder Shields slaying Gun has no ammo, but infanitely fires -- Gun in the "consensus" had ammo and auto-refilled every time it hit 0.  SPACE MAGIC (but expected in a virtual, virtual enviornment)!

6) The.Boy.Dies.In.Air.Vent -- if you don't agree with this, then you don't agree with the laws of aerodynamics and drastic shifts in air-pressure and decompression, and therefor believe in... YOU GUESSED IT! SPACE MAGIC!

7) The Indoc Codex exists specifically for your visual and audible pleasure!  SPACE MAGIC!

8) Anderson knows you Scotty'ed up to the Citidel because he WAS SPACE MAGIC!

9) Admiral Hacket knew you were the one that opened the arms of the citidel because he was SPACE MAGIC!

10) Shep nurses the SAME, EXACT, spot he shot anderson because SPACE MAGIC transposed the injuries!

I can keep going all day, but these are the top 10 starters.

Modifié par leewells, 03 avril 2012 - 11:56 .


#72
Nauks

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Saberchic wrote...

-Several Indoc Theory questions Snippage-


Well, taking into consideration that IT proposes that everything between Harbinger beaming you > waking up in London rubble doesn't actually happen, anything pertaining to the citadel/TIM/Crucible etc during this sequence is a moot point.
And if it isn't London rubble pre-beam, what then? rubble on the exploded Citadel? Shepard falling back down to Earth?

The dreams, well sure it could be just Shep's haunting, but it seems like a lot of wasted symbolism not to amount to anything more substantial, I for one thought they felt kind of unnecessary until I found out about IT.

The inf-ammo/slowmo bit, the ammo could just be an game-mechanic for all we know, it's not a make-or-break point of IT in any case, and even if slow-mo is seen in abundance, you have to admit that this part feels particularly off.

Modifié par Nauks, 03 avril 2012 - 11:42 .


#73
Cadence of the Planes

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Allow me to pick apart your logic

RiGoRmOrTiS_UK wrote...


1)
Bioware has never been that clever in their story telling; its always been straight forward character based story telling with very little interpretation.

  

Disagree with the statement- I've thought the storytelling was ingenious - particularly brought out by the complexities of some of the characters.

 2) its caused them even more hassle and brand damage than any “clever” ending is worth.

  So far, yes - but there is a huge opportunity here for Bioware to knock the fans off their feet by saying that the confusing ending was planned all along- because shepard was indoctrinated.

 3) all of their replies and responses since everything blew up has been counter to if the indoctrination theory is true. Their behaviour would have been different and less “damaging”. The artistic integrity card for example; which is used incorrectly and ignorantly by Bioware.

  

Huh? No I completely disagree- their replies and responses are cryptic ("we can't say") - making it just as easy to say that it supports indoctrination theory.

 4) It would mean Bioware sold an incomplete game; even if the ending DLC was free there would be a huge proportion of people who could never experience the actual ending. So it doesnt make sense to do a trick ending to be resolved by DLC later.

 

Why not? if the DLC is free, then I say why not? Who knows, they might already have the DLC ready, and are just toying with us to garner the most attention. If I'm right, it's a great business/publicity tactic.


 This is why I don't believe indoctrination theory; I think indoctrination theorist just got lucky with how bioware chose to represent certain moments and choices of dialogue which allowed us to connect so many points... Sometimes chaos can have misleading patterns of logic which actually mean nothing..


And I don't think that. Doesn't mean either of us are correct - we'll just have to wait and see who really is, though ;)

#74
Tiax Rules All

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There is a difference between not actually happening
and happening actually in Sheps mind.

#75
ForceXev

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It's definitely shady that Bioware would produce an incomplete ending to sell us a completed ending later as DLC, but it totally fits with their MO. We already saw them take a major character from the story and sell him as separate DLC. They have always been unscrupulous about DLC, only this time it finally blew up in their face.