309 réponses à ce sujet

[OgFux69]

I wonder why people ''merit'' it so fast.

[Wowlock]

Personally ? I won't give Bioware the oppurtunity to screw me over with a half-complete ending ( if the theory is true ) and then charge me for a full ending because it was their ''genius idea'' to pull this off.

Sorry, if I don't see it in the main game, then they didn't do their job right.

[Eshaye]

OgFux69 wrote...

I wonder why people ''merit'' it so fast.

If indoctrination is something you've been thinking about for years (and you should have been...especially if you've read any book/comic) it's not actually fast at all. 

Modifié par Eshaye, 03 avril 2012 - 11:46 .

[Dendio1]

ForceXev wrote...

It's definitely shady that Bioware would produce an incomplete ending to sell us a completed ending later as DLC, but it totally fits with their MO. We already saw them take a major character from the story and sell him as separate DLC. They have always been unscrupulous about DLC, only this time it finally blew up in their face.

Keeping Javik out of me3 is like keeping legion out of me2

[ForceXev]

OgFux69 wrote...

I wonder why people ''merit'' it so fast.

It took me a while to come around to it, actually.  I dismissed it at first, but then I actually looked at the evidence and realized it's a pretty strong theory.

[Wolfen919]

RiGoRmOrTiS_UK wrote...

Why so quick to de-merit Indoctrination Theory?

because:

1) Bioware has never been that clever in their story telling; its always been straight forward character based story telling with very little interpretation.

2) its caused them even more hassle and brand damage than any “clever” ending is worth.

3) all of their replies and responses since everything blew up has been counter to if the indoctrination theory is true. Their behaviour would have been different and less “damaging”. The artistic integrity card for example; which is used incorrectly and ignorantly by Bioware.

4) It would mean Bioware sold an incomplete game; even if the ending DLC was free there would be a huge proportion of people who could never experience the actual ending. So it doesnt make sense to do a trick ending to be resolved by DLC later.

I can do that too.

1) Bioware has never made an ending such as this. Dragon Age 2 was bad, but let's not get into that... Bioware has just never destroyed all logic and reason with just 5 minutes of the game. In Dragon Age 2 it can somewhat be explanable what had happened. I can justify the ending of Dragon Age 2, but it just left you with little choices; afaik it didn't break any of the lore or background like ME3.

2) The current one doesn't? Whaaaaaaaaaat?

3) Some of their statements before the game were lies. What do you believe to be factual and what to believe to be just rubbish?

4) It would also mean Bioware sold an incomplete game with the current ending. What happened at the end can not ever happen in the series. It just cant! If that was the real ending, then... *sigh* the only thing Bioware would have then is a depleted fanbase. I played DA before ME, and I played ME because of the reviews from DA players. I would say that their next few games could definitely have an impact from the backlash of the ME fanbase for sure. Best case scenario is Bioware only loses the people upset by the ending, which should be seen as "unacceptable" by Bioware or any other developer.


If anyone disagrees with Indoctrination Theory, then I suggest they try to dispute the issues IT tries to fix.
  @ 20:40 the video supplies the viewer with the questions that IT has come up with a solution/reason for what happened.

eveynameiwantisfekintaken wrote...

Ok no offence but....

I am so sick of Indoc theory and Indoc theory posts popping up all over the place.
You.Are.All.Grasping.At.Straws

There is no great master plan from Bioware regarding indoctrination, there is no twist awaiting further DLC.
Heres what happened-

They ****** up and wrote a **** poor ending
Simple as that im afraid

......................

 

We all expected Bioware to write something better. If IT doesn't explain the ending in a way that makes sense, then the ending is the worst ending Bioware has made and quite possibly one of the worst endings I have ever seen in a book, tv series, etc. 

Modifié par Wolfen919, 04 avril 2012 - 12:00 .

[Archer]

Ok no offence but....

I am so sick of Indoc theory and Indoc theory posts popping up all over the place.
You.Are.All.Grasping.At.Straws

There is no great master plan from Bioware regarding indoctrination, there is no twist awaiting further DLC.
Heres what happened-

They ****** up and wrote a **** poor ending
Simple as that im afraid

And if this godawful theory does turn out to be an ending DLC i wont be on here apologising. What i will be doing is not buying the DLC. Frankly if this theory was true it would be worse than the existing endings...

Oh and as an anti ending poster myself i would like to heartily apologise to all the pro enders out there. I now understand why so many of you got sick to death of reading 20 anti ending threads on a daily basis.

Indoc Theory has reached cult status now, it really feels to me like some kind of creepy cult religion. All hail the great and wonderful lord of Indoctrination!

As a great literary character once said-

Humbug.

Modifié par eveynameiwantisfekintaken, 03 avril 2012 - 11:49 .

[ForceXev]

Wowlock wrote...

Personally ? I won't give Bioware the oppurtunity to screw me over with a half-complete ending ( if the theory is true ) and then charge me for a full ending because it was their ''genius idea'' to pull this off.

Sorry, if I don't see it in the main game, then they didn't do their job right.

This is a fair reason to dislike or be mad about the IT, but not a good reason to dismiss it and assume it is false.  Then you're just burying your head in the sand in hopes that you won't have to spend $10.

There is also some hope at least that they're going to give us this DLC for free. 

[Gormane01]

Dendio1 wrote...

ForceXev wrote...

It's definitely shady that Bioware would produce an incomplete ending to sell us a completed ending later as DLC, but it totally fits with their MO. We already saw them take a major character from the story and sell him as separate DLC. They have always been unscrupulous about DLC, only this time it finally blew up in their face.

Keeping Javik out of me3 is like keeping legion out of me2

Actually it was alot closer to Shale from Dragon Age: Origins, interesting and compelling characters but totally irrelevant to the main story, he was a xenophobic meathead. Give Vega an extra set of eyes and he would be Javok

[liggy002]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

There is a difference between not actually happening
and happening actually in Sheps mind.

Yes, another thing that I can agree with and have said.

[Wolfen919]

Gormane01 wrote...

Actually it was alot closer to Shale from Dragon Age: Origins, interesting and compelling characters but totally irrelevant to the main story, he was a xenophobic meathead. Give Vega an extra set of eyes and he would be Javok

I disagree. It was closer to not playing the "Witch Hunt" DLC. Especially if you romanced Morrigan. Javik does have a point in the plot, one that makes it definitely worth buying to most players and not something you could skip, like Shale.

Modifié par Wolfen919, 03 avril 2012 - 11:56 .

[Kernwaffen]

I don't belittle Indoctrination Theory as an interpretation of the ending, but I don't think much of the claims it makes outside the game. That's because I'm a generally firm believer in Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." Mind you, I wouldn't say that anyone on the writing team is actually stupid, or that they are hacks, or anything of the kind. When working in a relatively small team for a long period of time, it's not that difficult for folks to start understanding eachother's intent, and to become more empathetic and sympathetic to their points of view. That can lead to groupthink if appropriate checks are not in place or ignored. It happens to the very best.

Basically, I'm much more willing to believe that people are fallible than the notion that Bioware is a perfect company executing some 'brilliant' strategy to surprise the fan base.

[leewells]

OgFux69 wrote...

I wonder why people ''merit'' it so fast.

I wonder why people demerit something greatly supported by the game's lore and codex while meriting and worshiping the religion of space magic.

[pfellahX]

On the negative side, it seems like Indoc can't be true because if so, the backlash has to be worse than they could've imagined. When your parent company's stock has dropped steadily since release and publications outside the industry (Forbes in particular) are writing articles on how pissed off your fanbase is... you think they'd have bailed out of the deception now... unless they're great poker players AND storytellers. It also lacks a compelling motive... WHY do you do all of this logistic dancing instead of just releasing the full ending on the disc on Day One? It's not like the game wasn't going to sell, as the third part of a flagship trilogy.

On the positive side... the "denials" are loosely worded. You can argue that "we won't be creating any new content" would be true if the ending DLC is already largely finished. You can argue that "this is the ending we planned" is true if the ending exists but the viral marketing stuff is what backfired. And I would observe that Bioware people were saying some very leading things about "hold onto your saved games" in the early days before the message control hammer struck. Also "we want everyone to experience the game" COULD be a hint at motive -- they want as many people as possible on the threshold of the big finish before turning on the faucet so that there's not too much spoilering. Imagery-wise, maybe it's an attempt to have players all over the world sweep into the ending together... you know... "taking back Earth" en masse.

Looking at the evidence in the game itself... yes it has holes, but it seems clear there are hooks to... SOMETHING more ambitious. Maybe it's not Indoc word-for-word, but there's pieces that are just too much to be coincidence. It's not an accident that -- to pick an example -- Shepard miraculously stops limping and gets the spring back in his step the minute he starts shooting in the Red ending. And yes, maybe the hooks just mean they ran out of time. But I dunno...

The short answer is it costs me nothing more to believe for three more days. If PAX doesn't give us good news, I guess that's the point I wash my hands of it.

[Wolfen919]

Kernwaffen wrote...

I don't belittle Indoctrination Theory as an interpretation of the ending, but I don't think much of the claims it makes outside the game. That's because I'm a generally firm believer in Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." Mind you, I wouldn't say that anyone on the writing team is actually stupid, or that they are hacks, or anything of the kind. When working in a relatively small team for a long period of time, it's not that difficult for folks to start understanding eachother's intent, and to become more empathetic and sympathetic to their points of view. That can lead to groupthink if appropriate checks are not in place or ignored. It happens to the very best.

Basically, I'm much more willing to believe that people are fallible than the notion that Bioware is a perfect company executing some 'brilliant' strategy to surprise the fan base.

More like we have been apalled that such a great game as Mass Effect 3 could be ruined basically in the last 5 minutes. IF the writers were honestly not so good this sequel, then I would honestly just say that overall ME3 sucked balls, however, it really didn't. Maybe some people didn't like the idea of the Crucible project, but overall the game was satisfactory, but I would have never in a million years expected Bioware to have produced such a HORRIBLE excuse of an ending that it left me depressed or upset by seeing it.

[ForceXev]

eveynameiwantisfekintaken wrote...

Ok no offence but....

I am so sick of Indoc theory and Indoc theory posts popping up all over the place.
You.Are.All.Grasping.At.Straws

There is no great master plan from Bioware regarding indoctrination, there is no twist awaiting further DLC.
Heres what happened-

They ****** up and wrote a **** poor ending
Simple as that im afraid

Y U MAD THO?

This is the sort of reaction that I think the OP is on about... people who don't think the IT is correct are LIVID about the idea that some people think it could be.  I mean, jeez...  Maybe you're right, but so what?  Why you mad?  Are we suggesting a possible story direction, or suggesting that we kick your dog?  I think it's only the thing about the story, your dog is safe.

Is it because the IT takes a little bit of heat off of Bioware?  Instead of hurling more expletives at Bioware for the ending, we're actually trying to give them a little credit for possibly having brains and an idea.  This is extremely offensive to people who are still butthurt over the ending.  Are you only happy if every post is about boycotting Bioware, threatening to throw feces at them, claiming my dog could write better, etc?

If it makes you feel any better, I think the ending still sucks even if the IT is true.  It can still be salvaged, but Bioware shouldn't have put themselves in a position where they have to salvage their plans for the ending of the story in the first place.  Speculation is that they did it because their original plans were leaked, and they had to rework it.  I think they should have gone ahead with their plans anyway, despite the leak.  If people spoiled it for themselves, that's their fault and their problem.

Anyway, put down the pitch forks.  The Indoctrination Cult isn't going to try to kidnap your children or go door-to-door attempting to convert your neighbors.  We just want ME3 to suck less.

[leewells]

Gormane01 wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

ForceXev wrote...

It's definitely shady that Bioware would produce an incomplete ending to sell us a completed ending later as DLC, but it totally fits with their MO. We already saw them take a major character from the story and sell him as separate DLC. They have always been unscrupulous about DLC, only this time it finally blew up in their face.

Keeping Javik out of me3 is like keeping legion out of me2

Actually it was alot closer to Shale from Dragon Age: Origins, interesting and compelling characters but totally irrelevant to the main story, he was a xenophobic meathead. Give Vega an extra set of eyes and he would be Javok

The name instantly draws attention to birds, poo, and that poor *uncontrollable laughter* chicken.  I don't know why, maybe it was the writing, or maybe it was the "shrug" just after, but that has to be one of the funniest "attitude" building moments in a game I have ever witnessed.

Secondary to that was ME2 can't remember which, but when you send the probe to Uranus... EDI: "Really!? Commander?"  (do it a second time) EDI: "*sigh* Probing Uranus!".  My coke came out my mouth, out my nose, and all over the monitor.

The only funny-funny catch phrase that came close to those two was in the mission picking up the Krogan female, you have to be very observant but back in the corner (up the steps to the right and behind where you came in) there is a Salarian working at a station that has a button.. when you push the button..

Push 1: "Please don't touch that!"
Push 2: "I asked you to please stop touching that!"
Push 3: "Must I ask any nice to please stop touchig that?"
Push 4: "What is it with you humans? Do you have to go around touching all shiny buttons?"
Push 5: "I have to ask you on behalf of the Human-Salarian treaty to stop touching that button!"
Push 6: "Are you seriously wanting to cause a diplomatic incodent by pushing that button?"
Push 7: "BUTTON PUSHER!!!"

It got MORE insaine from there but yeah, I laughed.

Modifié par leewells, 04 avril 2012 - 12:09 .

[eddieoctane]

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

Because the haters dont like the idea
that bioware pulled the wool over their eyes and basically indoctrinated
the players.

Either that, or IT is true, and BioWare doesn;t want us totallya ccepting it yet so they are paying the trolls to "discredit" any believers.

Saberchic wrote...

The IT theory has holes. It's not perfect. Why favor that over the "it was real" theory?

Well, it has less holes than the piece of swiss cheese BioWare is trying to pass off as "art".

[Nauks]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

There is a difference between not actually happening
and happening actually in Sheps mind.

Fair point, it never hurts to clarify =)

Modifié par Nauks, 04 avril 2012 - 12:07 .

[ThunderSoul]

Blind Rapture wrote...

There is the PROCESS of becoming indoctrinated and then there is BEING indoctrinated.

Kai Leng's actions are actively being influenced by the reapers. Shepard's are not. This is very obvious and debunks the strongest defense against the Indoctrination Theory. Assuming that the VI would be able to detect the slightest hint of the process is as much grasping at straws as even the weakest IT evidence.

Also, saying that the evidence isn't "obvious" enough, is missing the entire point. Bioware wants us to speculate and debate. What's the point in all that if they put irrefutable and easily noticed evidence?

But besides all that. Why do so many WANT to refute the idea of the IT? Why do we have to take everything so seriously and at face value? I, personslly love this sort of thing. It reminds me of Valve's brilliant ARGs and the days before the internet, when video games were often shrouded in mystery with rumors abound. Before you could easily rip into a disc and find out for sure.

I want the Indoctrination Theory to be true. I want this to have been their plan all along and I want them to spend more time that their normal deadline would have allowed to make and even more epic ending. And the waiting just makes it that much bigger of a pay off.

Why do we need everything immediately and up front? Wouldn't you rather have a better experience in the long run? I know I would. 

There is no such thing as the indoctrination of Shepard. He was not being indoctrinated. What he experienced was what one would experience on the edge of death. Reality mixed with illusion. Period. Everything that he did/happened was real, he just experienced it differently.

[GME_ThorianCreeper]

Saberchic wrote...

The IT theory has holes. It's not perfect. Why favor that over the "it was real" theory?

Because that has even more holes.

[leewells]

ThunderSoul wrote...

Blind Rapture wrote...

There is the PROCESS of becoming indoctrinated and then there is BEING indoctrinated.

Kai Leng's actions are actively being influenced by the reapers. Shepard's are not. This is very obvious and debunks the strongest defense against the Indoctrination Theory. Assuming that the VI would be able to detect the slightest hint of the process is as much grasping at straws as even the weakest IT evidence.

Also, saying that the evidence isn't "obvious" enough, is missing the entire point. Bioware wants us to speculate and debate. What's the point in all that if they put irrefutable and easily noticed evidence?

But besides all that. Why do so many WANT to refute the idea of the IT? Why do we have to take everything so seriously and at face value? I, personslly love this sort of thing. It reminds me of Valve's brilliant ARGs and the days before the internet, when video games were often shrouded in mystery with rumors abound. Before you could easily rip into a disc and find out for sure.

I want the Indoctrination Theory to be true. I want this to have been their plan all along and I want them to spend more time that their normal deadline would have allowed to make and even more epic ending. And the waiting just makes it that much bigger of a pay off.

Why do we need everything immediately and up front? Wouldn't you rather have a better experience in the long run? I know I would. 

There is no such thing as the indoctrination of Shepard. He was not being indoctrinated. What he experienced was what one would experience on the edge of death. Reality mixed with illusion. Period. Everything that he did/happened was real, he just experienced it differently.

So let me get this strait - Shep is somehow immune to the attempts of indoctrination while everyone else in the galaxy has a dire vunerabilit to it from merely having intelligence?  SPACE MAGIC!

[ForceXev]

pfellahX wrote...

On the negative side, it seems like Indoc can't be true because if so, the backlash has to be worse than they could've imagined. When your parent company's stock has dropped steadily since release and publications outside the industry (Forbes in particular) are writing articles on how pissed off your fanbase is... you think they'd have bailed out of the deception now... unless they're great poker players AND storytellers.

I've seen a few people suggest this.  You think they would just come out and give away spoilers in a tweet or something, just to calm people down?  That's ridiculous.

Their best chance is to produce a great DLC, give it away for free, and hope people go "OOOH, I get it now.  The ending is much better now."

It also lacks a compelling motive... WHY do you do all of this logistic dancing instead of just releasing the full ending on the disc on Day One? It's not like the game wasn't going to sell, as the third part of a flagship trilogy.

I belive it's two things --
One was the leak of the original game script.  It has been said that they went back and changed things because the whole original story was leaked.  That, of course, set them back and they didn't have enough time to follow through with their new plan.

If that's true, I think they obviously made a mistake.  Like I said before, they should have just went ahead with the original story, and too bad for those people who were dumb enough to spoil the whole thing for themselves.

The other thing is DLC.  I know Bioware never expected such a strong negative reaction to the ending.  Some confusion, some questions, yes.  And they planned to happily sell us DLC that would answer all the questions, making a tidy profit for the company.  That plan blew up in their face.

Imagery-wise, maybe it's an attempt to have players all over the world sweep into the ending together... you know... "taking back Earth" en masse.

That's actually a pretty good argument for holding back the ending as DLC.  Bioware are CRAZY about avoiding spoilers.  They already had one story leaked.  So it makes a great case for why they would hold back on the "true" ending this time, so everyone ends up finishing it at the same time and they prevent any spoilers about the ending from getting out.

[Kernwaffen]

More like we have been apalled that such a great game as Mass Effect 3 could be ruined basically in the last 5 minutes. IF the writers were honestly not so good this sequel, then I would honestly just say that overall ME3 sucked balls, however, it really didn't. Maybe some people didn't like the idea of the Crucible project, but overall the game was satisfactory, but I would have never in a million years expected Bioware to have produced such a HORRIBLE excuse of an ending that it left me depressed or upset by seeing it.

I think this is probably where some of the IT and non-IT folks differ. I, for instance, found the ending pretty unsatisfying, but I don't think it's quite as bad as many here seem to. There's plenty of room for disagreement on this, and I suspect that the worse you think the ending is, the more likely you are to find IT appealing. At the end of the day, I think Mr. Walters' notes say it all: "Lots of speculation for everyone." I think the ending represents an attempt to leave the ending open-ended in such a way that there's room for everyone to fill in the blanks however they please. I don't think that's lazy; I think it's an earnest attempt to please everyone. I don't think it works, but, again, I think that's much more plausible than a conspiracy.

[Saberchic]

ForceXev wrote...

You've picked on some of the weakest evidence for IT.  Now for the real evidence:

Appearance of trees and bushes around Shepard after "waking up" from being hit by the Reaper beam.  There were no trees there before, and they make it look a lot like his dreams/nightmares.

What trees and bushes? I don't see it in this nor this.

The beam leads Shepard to a room with only one control panel which just so happens to be the one Shepard needs to open the Citadel arms, and he faces no opposition at all on the Citadel.

Why not? As I stated earlier, maybe the reapers wanted Shep to be there.  Anderson did say that walls moved. It's not impossible that he landed somewhere other than where Shep did. The only living things I saw were a couple of keepers. I assumed they were trying to clean up. As long as Shep wasn't trying to tear apart the Citadel, I hardly think they are going to attack him/her.

The Illusive Man is able to force Shepard to shoot Anderson.  We have never seen an indoctrinated agent of any kind have the power to influence other people's actions.  Only if it is an illusion, or if Shepard is indoctrinated himself could he be physically manipulated in this way by the Reapers.

And TIM has been experimenting with reaper tech. Why else would the reapers go after Cerberus if he was completely in their control (Sanctuary mission)? It's a possiblity TIM has discovered something. It's not that hard to believe.

The Catalyst taking the form of the boy.  There is no reason for the catalyst to tap into Shepard's mind and use that image.  The Reapers however would use that image because it what they have been using all along in the dreams to break his will.

That's just speculation. Why wouldn't the catalyst use it?


Look, all I as pointing out to the OP was that there are holes with IT. I'm not saying the game was perfect. Far from it actually. Both sides have holes. I'm just pointing out why some people don't accept the indoctrination theory over the it was real theory.

edit: darn links!

Modifié par Saberchic, 04 avril 2012 - 12:16 .