309 réponses à ce sujet

[Yalision]

IT simply isn't true. I've watched a very good indepth video that goes over all the textures in the ending choices and the breath scene to prove that the cables and "stone" are in fact part of the Citadel and not London debris. The textures are the proof in the pudding unfortunately. They just have a million and a half plot holes they aren't owning up to.

[PhotonMaze]

Samuel_Valkyrie wrote...

It's the classic debate between religieus people, and atheists.

The facts point towards Indoc not being true. It was never Bioware's intention for Shep to be indoctrinated. That is the TRUTH.

However, like religious people, you don't care about the truth. You want the subjective experience, and your subjective experience prefers you to have Indoc. It's not true, but you want it to be.

So, whatever arguments you have in favor if Indoc? On the big heap, because they do not matter.

Indoc still isn't true.

What a complete load of bull****! I'm a full on atheist and anti-theist and the IT is such a ridiculus comparison to religion.

This theory can in no way be equated to religion because it actually has a lot of compelling evidence going for it like a scientific theory. We can in no way say that the indoctrination theory is definitly true, but we can analyse the evidence and wait for Bioware to make a statement on it.

Why would they add Shepard breathing at the end if it didn't mean anything??? Why are Bioware acting like they have something huge planned? Why does the whole end sequence correlate with how indoctrination is percieved throughout the series?

There is no evidence which disproves the theory. In fact all opposing arguments I have heard just seem to say - "That could just be a coincidence" - yes it could, but that is no valid opposing argument. The thing you said about bioware never intending to make Shepard indoctrinated is completely false - read "The Final Hours of Mass Effect 3" App. They did in fact intend to have Shepard indoctrinated.

What's more, supporters of the indoctrination theory aren't shaping their lives around the theory like religious people do with their beliefs. That's what's bad about religion - that people act on their beliefs, not merely because they believe. If you insult people for believing certain things, you are as bad as the religions.

Remember - YOU CAN'T HELP WHAT YOU BELIEVE. No one can - That's why it is not ok to insult individuals based on their beliefs, but it is ok to constructively criticize people's beliefs based on your own morals. The indoctrination theory isn't theory about morality.

You do know that without THEORIES from Darwin, Einstein and Newton we wouldn't know about evolution and the laws of physics. That's the point of theories - to learn new things!! We aren't saying the IT is absolute fact, we are merely waiting on the results (Bioware announcing something).

You do know that if the world was how you seem think it should be - where there is no point in theories and we should only rely on knowledge from the past - we would never learn anything new. The indoctrination theory is a THEORY! (The clue is in the title) No one thinks otherwise.

People - STOP COMPARING THE INDOCTRINATION THEORY TO RELIGION. They are nothing alike.

[InsaneAzrael]

Because believing strongly enough that something didn't happen does not mean it didn't happen.

[Archer]

ForceXev wrote...

eveynameiwantisfekintaken wrote...

Ok no offence but....

I am so sick of Indoc theory and Indoc theory posts popping up all over the place.
You.Are.All.Grasping.At.Straws

There is no great master plan from Bioware regarding indoctrination, there is no twist awaiting further DLC.
Heres what happened-

They ****** up and wrote a **** poor ending
Simple as that im afraid

Y U MAD THO?

This is the sort of reaction that I think the OP is on about... people who don't think the IT is correct are LIVID about the idea that some people think it could be.  I mean, jeez...  Maybe you're right, but so what?  Why you mad?  Are we suggesting a possible story direction, or suggesting that we kick your dog?  I think it's only the thing about the story, your dog is safe.

Is it because the IT takes a little bit of heat off of Bioware?  Instead of hurling more expletives at Bioware for the ending, we're actually trying to give them a little credit for possibly having brains and an idea.  This is extremely offensive to people who are still butthurt over the ending.  Are you only happy if every post is about boycotting Bioware, threatening to throw feces at them, claiming my dog could write better, etc?

If it makes you feel any better, I think the ending still sucks even if the IT is true.  It can still be salvaged, but Bioware shouldn't have put themselves in a position where they have to salvage their plans for the ending of the story in the first place.  Speculation is that they did it because their original plans were leaked, and they had to rework it.  I think they should have gone ahead with their plans anyway, despite the leak.  If people spoiled it for themselves, that's their fault and their problem.

Anyway, put down the pitch forks.  The Indoctrination Cult isn't going to try to kidnap your children or go door-to-door attempting to convert your neighbors.  We just want ME3 to suck less.

I am mad yes

Also i have no children and my neighbours are inbred mutants i avoid.

My post was semi tongue in cheek. I do understand why the theory is supported. Its actually well thought out and does pay attention to a lot of the detail in game.

But i honestly do believe its just coincidence. I really do despise the ending we got and support it being looked at/changed but i really dont think IT is the way to go.

If Bioware did have a plan i personaly think it was this-

1/ Give Closure to Shepards story
2/ Have a dramatic event happen in the ending that leaves us an opening for a new ME series. An almost to be continued moment (e.g destroy the relays)

The problem being it was written poorly and made no sense to us. Which is why, as much as i hate the endings i know they wont be changed. Just clarified as Bioware said. There's obviously a plan for the franchise's future. In all honesty do we truly believe they will rewrite the entire ending and effectivley throw away that long term plan?

Re the ending leaks though, which i avoided at the time. My understanding was that the catalyst was in those? Anyone clarify that for me?

In conclusion though i will say....I dont have a dog either

[Random Internet Person]

I don't believe in the IT at all, I don't feel like writing a big wall of text to explain why.

However, from a real world perspective, a company like Bioware, who could probably own half of the province of Alberta if they wanted to, does not need to have a crazy marketing scheme to get people talking about their products. They are such a big company, it would hurt them more than help them.

If you're old enough to remember, the ME3 ending is just like New Coke, sometimes stuff just happens.

[AlexMBrennan]

Why do we need everything immediately and up front?

Because EA want's payment upfront, duh... OK, are you serious?

I want the Indoctrination Theory to be true. I want this to have been their plan all along and I want them to spend more time that their normal deadline would have allowed to make and even more epic ending.

And that's the problem. You want it to be true, and look at all the facts trying to confirm the hypothesis you want to be true. That's positive bias (fun experiment - don't bother if you know lesswrong)

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 04 avril 2012 - 12:23 .

[Gnaeus.Silvanus]

OP, you do realize that the harbinger beam itself could be the most powerful indoctrination tool used by the reapers to subdue Shepard.

[Saberchic]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

And that's the problem. You want it to be true, and look at all the facts trying to confirm the hypothesis you want to be true. That's positive bias (fun experiment - don't bother if you know lesswrong)

Ha! That link was pretty cool. And it also made a good point.

[PhotonMaze]

I've never seen anyone say - "the indoctrination theory is definately true," so why are people criticising people for it. The Indoctrination THEORY is a THEORY. (Clues in the title) Supporters of the IT seem to know this more than anyone.

[Blind Rapture]

The argument that it's inconsistent with Bioware's writing style is the worst of all. Ignoring the obvious point of Darth Revan, there's a first time for everything. Mass Effect has always been a super ambitious franchise, why wouldn't they want to do something big and crazy? Their pre-release twitter feed tells us they had something big planned

If their writers are so terrible, why have you been playing this story-driven game for 6 years? Haven't they earned a little more faith than that? I truly believe that this debacle was intentional, but they did did not anticipate the extreme animosity that the fans have shown.

I'm not saying I am 100% correct, I just think people should be more open to ideas. It's like some people just love having an excuse to be vindictive.


The biggest piece of evidence is the most obvious, but rarely gets mentioned.
>What did Saren want? SYNTHESIS with the reapers.

>What did TIM want? CONTROL over the reapers.

>What is Shepard's goal? To DESTROY the reapers.

Modifié par Blind Rapture, 04 avril 2012 - 12:40 .

[DocJill]

For those of you who do not believe in Indoc theory, answer just one question:

If you pick destroy and "Shepard lives," where is his body when he wakes up?

It cannot be on the citadel, because we see explosions on the arms of the citadel after the crucible fires. The citadel is presumably being destroyed, just like the mass relays are. So you mean to tell me that Shepard survived re-entry into Earth's atmosphere after the citadel was blown from orbit? This, coupled with other evidence already discussed, pretty much convinces me the ending was some type of dream.

And yes a possible answer to this question is crappy writing, but until proven otherwise I refuse to believe that someone could write an ending with so many obnoxious plot holes.

[The_ilest]

well the ending of mass effect 3 has been mentioned so many times in ME1 that is border line stupid to believe in it. Here is the proof that the IT is crap. http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Klencory

[ForceXev]

Saberchic wrote...

What trees and bushes? I don't see it in this nor this.

You can see the shrubs a little bit in that second link, but it's mostly behind Shepard, so you have to turn around to see it.

Here

You may want to go ahead and watch all of that video, too.  It explains alot about IT.

The rest of your counters to the evidence are pretty weak.  It seems like some people have just made the decision to ignore all of the evidence, and that's your prerogative.  We'll see soon enough...

[Tiax Rules All]

DocJill wrote...

For those of you who do not believe in Indoc theory, answer just one question:

If you pick destroy and "Shepard lives," where is his body when he wakes up?

It cannot be on the citadel, because we see explosions on the arms of the citadel after the crucible fires. The citadel is presumably being destroyed, just like the mass relays are. So you mean to tell me that Shepard survived re-entry into Earth's atmosphere after the citadel was blown from orbit? This, coupled with other evidence already discussed, pretty much convinces me the ending was some type of dream.

And yes a possible answer to this question is crappy writing, but until proven otherwise I refuse to believe that someone could write an ending with so many obnoxious plot holes.

This is the most Blatant and obvious IT evidence. If not IT then its the most assinine, pointless, cliffhanger/ plot hole ever. It has a point The point is "WAKE UP, YOUR ON EARTH, QUESTION WHAT YOU JUST SAW"

[leewells]

Nauks wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

There is a difference between not actually happening
and happening actually in Sheps mind.

Fair point, it never hurts to clarify =)

If you view the final scenes, from the time Shep is hit by harbinger's beam until you see him draw breath at the end that it was a metaphoric battle in sheps mind, it has 0 (I repeat ZERO) plot holes.

I'll go over them with you...  Just starting at the point of the indoc ATTEMPT until the end when he draws breath:

1) you are wounded, you are grabbing your arm.  The gun has no ammo, yet fires indefiniately.  I understand they didn't intend for you to run out of bullet (heat syncs), but what makes the encounter in the consensus any diffrent where that "metaphoric" gun had ammo and was auto-refilled every few seconds (try it)?

2) the first thing that should draw your attention is the same post-process shaders (dream effect shaders) ONLY USED IN YOUR DREAMS are used in the sequence from this point forward after thinking you woke up.

3) Still with me?  Ok lets jump up top... Anderson "knows" you made it up? How? How is the radio even working?  The ear-piece is clearly BLASTED away from his/her head with no head gear on (notice Anderson's radio was REALLY CLEARLY THERE).  We'll skip the fact that Anderson makes it to the middle before you and already under the control of the illusive man (which suggests he had to undergo rapid indoc for it to happen which means he HAS to be a thrall...

4) I can't skip the part the TIM mysteriously "appears".

5) The, "Listen to yourself, you're... INDOCTRINATED!" Anderson looks DIRECTLY AT SHEP AND STARTS SHAKING HIS HEAD (no style) FURIOUSLY.

6) Ok and the wound... I hate to sound Jesus Christ on you, but the positioning of the wound was pure Indoc gold.  Remember, shep was nursing his arm, then his shoulder (after marauder shields), and after TIM is dealt with, the CAMER MAKES TAKES SPECAIL CARE TO SHOW YOU YOUR PERFUSELY BLEEDING "HOLE" IN THE SAME SPOT YOU SHOT ANDERSON.  Sorry, I'm not screeming, this really needs to be read with dire care.

7) Notice the lack of radio chatter except for when your attention is wanted... This is an assumption but it builds to what is coming at the end...

8) Anderson direcly contacts you after bieng told very specifically "Did we get any in the beam? Negative! THey're all dead!".  Lets explain this right quick.  This happened after the blast and likely (if you blieve) that part of the indoc attempt to remove all hope which is what the reapers thrive on in order to successfully indoc you! (your conversations with the kid should make this blindly obvious!)

9) LOGIC, LOGIC, LOGIC, LOGIC... If "A MYSTERY PERSON" says, "yeah I was alcopone's boss, and now manage 180 drug lords, what makes you think he should be instantly trusted?  So why would you not be highly suspicious when the kid says "They are my solution!"?  The logic simply says the kid cannot be trusted if he is in control of the genocidial, homocidal, minipulative, incipitoids called the reapers.

10) But concerning star kid lets now approach this situation with some reverse psychology, or reverse engineering of the situation for a moment and place yourself in harbinger's shoes.. I know, its hard to fathom the evil, nor is it lore friendly to assume you can understand them (except when EDI says they have weaknesses and are far more inferior than what they puff themselves up to be!).  Now, think for a moment, knowing that in order to indoc someone you first have to destroy their hopes and dreams before doing so... WHAT FORM WOULD YOU CHOOSE TO APPROACH SHEP IN to guarantee that he instantly relives every hopeless memory relevelan to the ME3 canon?  THE BOY!  Now lets go a little deeper, assuming you couldn't break shep's free-will (in the Anderson TIM battle), you have to now "trick" shep into giving in, what methods would you deploy to trick shep into thinking that "merging" or "controling (thrall)" was the right answer?  How would you disguise the "destruction" choice?  Is it starting to add up now?  I hope so, I'm tired of writing   Now think about the radios and remember that you can't tip off shep that it is indoc.

11) READ THE CODEX.

12) Assuming you're nodding your head until this point, think about everything that happenes after you destroy, vs the other 2 options... I'll explain:
    a) destroy - kid "poofs", your character stands up strait, seemingly without injury with a great sense of valor. AND YOU WAKE UP!
     control - THE KID SMIRKS AT YOU!!!! Shep drops his GUN (ammoless gun) to the GROUND and just before he decentergrates, you are turned to a husk (the camera takes specail care to show you this very clearly) AND YOU DON'T WAKE UP
    c) synthesis - THE KID SMIRKS AT YOU!!!!  and again, shep drops his GUN, and turns into a husk just before discentergrating. AND YOU DON'T WAKE UP

13) assuming you're now going "wow" consider the rest of the game as "symbology of hope" "foreshadowing" and you can even go as far as to imply hopefully that the exposions of the mass relays were a symbol of the method in which sheps head purged itself of indoctrination (or accepted it!)

14) The technical - examine the "rubble" movie .bik file... "london_rubble.."  This should now at least tell you what the DEVS thought when trying to sort and categorize the movies.

15) What about the ending? Thats a tease, and could very well possibly be a REAL scene that is set 300 years into the future... I imagin the "fable" part of it refering to shep as "the shephard" supports the exaggerated time-line.  The "one more story" though lol... you can't ignore this... and you can't ignore that shep only has one option to show him still alive in "london_rubble".

It is really hard to tell when the indoc process started, but what is fact, shep was NEVER INDOCTRINATED because he successfully fought it off.. If you immune system fights off a virus while in incubation, you officially were not ever sick So the indoc theory does not imply indoctrination, it states that the a very agressive attempt was made by harbinger which would also explain his dire intrest in YOU and no one else (ME2 went way out of the way to show you this).


And I cannot stress enough, read the codex...

So, did EDI die for you to wake up? Possibly no.  Did the Geth? Possibly no -- because lil'****** specifically stated "even you are partly synthetic" like all options resulted in your death   Which either proves lies of all lies, or space magic

Modifié par leewells, 04 avril 2012 - 12:46 .

[DocJill]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

DocJill wrote...

For those of you who do not believe in Indoc theory, answer just one question:

If you pick destroy and "Shepard lives," where is his body when he wakes up?

It cannot be on the citadel, because we see explosions on the arms of the citadel after the crucible fires. The citadel is presumably being destroyed, just like the mass relays are. So you mean to tell me that Shepard survived re-entry into Earth's atmosphere after the citadel was blown from orbit? This, coupled with other evidence already discussed, pretty much convinces me the ending was some type of dream.

And yes a possible answer to this question is crappy writing, but until proven otherwise I refuse to believe that someone could write an ending with so many obnoxious plot holes.

This is the most Blatant and obvious IT evidence. If not IT then its the most assinine, pointless, cliffhanger/ plot hole ever. It has a point The point is "WAKE UP, YOUR ON EARTH, QUESTION WHAT YOU JUST SAW"

Okay, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this way. 

[Nauks]

leewells wrote...

-Textgasm snip-

You're preaching to the choir unless that message was meant for someone else.

Modifié par Nauks, 04 avril 2012 - 12:54 .

[Wolfen919]

I still would like to know who is the one responsible for building the "Space Magic Generator". Perhaps the reapers are so advanced that they saw into the future that "the shepard" would eventually choose their fate between 3 choices.

Like I said before, if IT isn't true, then I've lost all faith in Bioware's writing staff. I am just about 100% sure that any player could have thought of a better ending to this series. Perhaps the greed got to Bioware; or a deadline.

I'm not sure what to believe... either Bioware sucks for not giving the ending the real ending on release, or Bioware sucks because the current ending is just so rubbish and unbelievable.

[Tiax Rules All]

Nauks wrote...

leewells wrote...

-Textgasm snip-

You're preaching to the choir unless that message was meant for someone else.

[Saberchic]

ForceXev wrote...

Saberchic wrote...

What trees and bushes? I don't see it in this nor this.

You can see the shrubs a little bit in that second link, but it's mostly behind Shepard, so you have to turn around to see it.

Here

You may want to go ahead and watch all of that video, too.  It explains alot about IT.

The rest of your counters to the evidence are pretty weak.  It seems like some people have just made the decision to ignore all of the evidence, and that's your prerogative.  We'll see soon enough...

I'm sorry if you think my reasons are weak. I also think yours are too. It also seems like some IT theorists have tried to shoe-horn the game into making the theory fit, no matter what counter arguments have been made.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree about that.

[PhotonMaze]

Saberchic wrote...

Nauks wrote...

Saberchic wrote...

The IT theory has holes. It's not perfect. Why favor that over the "it was real" theory?

Because it has less holes than the current real ending?

Not true.

1) How do the arms get open  if Shep isn't really on the Citadel?

The arms need to be open in order to line up the Crucible. To do that Shep had to get in the Citadel. IT that I've seen all state that indoctrination happens to Shep on Earth (and that's where Shep 'wakes up' if you have a high enough EMS according to these people). They say Shep never left Earth, and it's all in Shep's head. I think Shep is just buried in rubble. 

2) TIM being on the Citadel is part of the indoctrination because why would he even be there?

Again, not true. The prothean VI clearly says that TIM has fled to the Citadel when you go to the Cerberus base. He was there before Shep, not after. Also, Anderson says the walls moved when you are walking to the platform. IT people say there is only one way there (to the platform). The path could have changed to guide Shep to where our favorite starchild wanted Shep to go.

3) The dreams are subtle indoctrination.

This is subjective. When I experienced the dreams the first time, I thought this could be the case. There were whispers and shades in Shep's mind. However, they could just as easily be the things which haunt Shepard during sleep.

4) The lovely infinite ammo pistol.

Yeah, it also appears along with a 'slowed reality' (just like the end where you run to the beam) when you take out Dr. Eva Core on Mars. I chalk this up to 'artistic license.'  Not a fan of it, but I'm sure there are plenty on reasons why they felt the need to do this (storywise and logistics).

These are just some of the points IT puts forth, and it doesn't work better than the "it was real" argument. yes, there are significant questions that need to be answered either way, but "it was real" makles more sense than IT.

These aren't holes in the indoctrination theory! How can't you see that? These are just explanations for why it is not completely full proof. Your explanations don't prove anything either way. No one is saying the IT is definately true (it's a theory).

[Tiax Rules All]

Saberchic wrote...


I'm sorry if you think my reasons are weak. I also think yours are too. It also seems like some IT theorists have tried to shoe-horn the game into making the theory fit, no matter what counter arguments have been made.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree about that.

shrubs are just one tiny miniscule part of the larger IT picture. Im sorry you cant see it.

BTW the moon landing was not faked.

[Ariella]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Indoctrination will no longer be a theory after friday. prepare yourselves

Right, because it never happened. There is no evident symptomology, no loss of intelligence, no voices nothing.

The cigar is a cigar, folks.... Nothing more, nothing less.

[Saberchic]

PhotonMaze wrote...

These aren't holes in the indoctrination theory! How can't you see that? These are just explanations for why it is not completely full proof. Your explanations don't prove anything either way. No one is saying the IT is definately true (it's a theory).

On the contrary, some people are very much insisting that IT is true. I was just pointing out the the OP why people aren't 100% sold on IT.

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Saberchic wrote...


I'm
sorry if you think my reasons are weak. I also think yours are too. It
also seems like some IT theorists have tried to shoe-horn the game into
making the theory fit, no matter what counter arguments have been made.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree about that. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png

shrubs are just one tiny miniscule part of the larger IT picture. Im sorry you cant see it.

BTW the moon landing was not faked.

Oh noes! Burned shrubs! IT must be true then! <_<

Just because I don't agree with IT doesn't mean you have to be rude to me.