188 réponses à ce sujet

[JBONE27]

Frybread76 wrote...

JBONE27 wrote...

Frybread76 wrote...

I want to add that we shouldn't be too surprised that the ME3 writers took such liberty with the concept of evolution with the synthesis ending. In ME2, Mordin says human beings are very genetically diverse, which is a crock of you-know-what.

To be fair, that was in comparison with other sentiant life forms.  Maybe it's not the fact that humans are so diverse, but that aliens are homogenus.

Human beings are 99.9 percent genetically identical.  I don't know how other alien life forms could be less than that.  Again, though, this is something else that is left unexplained.

I don't know maybe they're 99.99999999999 percent genetically identical. lol

[Escocido]

Frybread76 wrote...

JBONE27 wrote...

Frybread76 wrote...

I want to add that we shouldn't be too surprised that the ME3 writers took such liberty with the concept of evolution with the synthesis ending. In ME2, Mordin says human beings are very genetically diverse, which is a crock of you-know-what.

To be fair, that was in comparison with other sentiant life forms.  Maybe it's not the fact that humans are so diverse, but that aliens are homogenus.

Human beings are 99.9 percent genetically identical.  I don't know how other alien life forms could be less than that.  Again, though, this is something else that is left unexplained.

C`mon, dude. We have just gone through a bottleneck. After several thousand years and the liberal application of cosmic radiation and several forms of noxious technology we could have got a number of shiny new allelles

[Carfax]

Random Jerkface wrote...

And what proof of there is that?

I'd say that DNA counts as proof that life is inherently teleological, since it contains specific, purposeful, and meaningful information the likes of which is not seen outside of living creatures.

Modifié par Carfax, 04 avril 2012 - 08:44 .

[kalle90]

How about the implants make you all powerful and adapt to everything? They can change their functions at any time.

[Celeblhachon]

Likewise, to imply an end point would require the universe to reach a fixed status quo, with nothing changing, right down to variations in DNA, which is so unlikely it's impossible to all practical intent.

Actually this is untrue, and the reality is quite the opposite. Due to the inexorable march of entropy, the universe will eventually reach a state where no more meaningful reactions take place. This is called heat death. There will be no more DNA, RNA, life, stars or planets - just a soup of mostly lifeless particles. This is wholly consistent with thermodynamics and is really rather poetic. All objects seek to dissipate their heat, and that includes the entirety of the universe. The same mechanic which tries to bring your coffee into the lowest energy state is also trying (and succeeding) to bring the universe into it's least active state. Really brings home just how unimaginably active the start of the universe was - as a plasma.

There are lots of problems with the science in Mass Effect - the Mass Effect fields themselves are practically impossible. More energy would be required to warp the space time around a golf ball enough to move it in earth's atmosphere than is output by the sun in a million years.

But it doesn't really matter, because as long as it is explained within the context of the story I really don't care if they have to bend reality a bit to get their point across. Arguing about this stuff is kinda silly because we all know it's impossible anyways.

Modifié par Celeblhachon, 04 avril 2012 - 09:01 .

[Carfax]

Tocquevillain wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

Carfax wrote...

 All life is fundamentally teleological in nature,

And what proof of there is that?

HERPDY DERPDY DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO:wizard::wizard:

You forgot to take your ritalin I see...  Or perhaps you didn't think I had an answer

[Daennikus]

Carfax wrote...

JBONE27 wrote...

There is no ultimate goal in evolution.  It is an ongoing process.   

Not sure I would agree with this premise.  All life is fundamentally teleological in nature, therefore it makes sense that evolution itself would also be goal oriented.

As such, it's undoubted that life forms are becoming increasingly complex, and more capable of expression..

Edited for fail on my part

Modifié par Daennikus, 04 avril 2012 - 07:28 .

[Alex_SM]

The Grey Nayr wrote...


But my point is that you cant prove that there isn't a cosmic directive

You can't prove that there isn't anything. You can't prove there aren't magical pink unicorns drinking radiactive beer (which is not like regular beer) in the other side of reality (also you can't prove that there isn't an "other side of realite").

You don't think something is possible just because you can't prove it isn't. You think something is possible because you can prove (or at least find clues) that it is. 

[Daennikus]

JBONE27 wrote...

Frybread76 wrote...

Human beings are 99.9 percent genetically identical.  I don't know how other alien life forms could be less than that.  Again, though, this is something else that is left unexplained.

I don't know maybe they're 99.99999999999 percent genetically identical. lol

You must be talking about non-coding "junk" DNA that we're barely beginning to identify as "experience" DNA. We can't say that it's the same from one individual to another, though we can speculate that it tracks back evolution from a generation to another... And if you wanna go crazy you can even imagine that it keeps a record of main changes in your current one.


But, according to ancient astronaut theorists, non-coding DNA may be the key to discovering our true origins from the beginning of mankind. 

[Carfax]

Daennikus wrote...

Edited for fail on my part

Oooh, I wish I would have read what you said before you edited!

[RyuujinZERO]

Wow ok... I was going to add something constructive to this thread but reading it to completion has caused me to lose all faith in humanity's intelligence and don't even know where to begin in setting the records straight. Hmm.



"Can't disprove there isn't a cosmic directive", "can't prove there isn't an ultimate goal to evolution" ye gahds... you guys failed Science at school right? (And if you're at school STOP SLEEPING THROUGH class). Come back once you've done high school biology and we'll talk

Modifié par RyuujinZERO, 04 avril 2012 - 08:14 .

[What a Succulent Ass]

Carfax wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

And what proof of there is that?

I'd say that DNA counts as proof that life is inherently teleological, since it contains specific, purposeful, and meaningful information the likes of which is not seen outside of living creatures.

I fail to see how that's proof of anything, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding your argument. DNA doesn't always have specific, purposeful, or meaningful information. Nor is it especially "orderly" or meticulous. When it makes mistakes, it either adapts to them or corrects them, because the punishment for failing to do either is lessened fitness or death. I don't see how that's teleological.

[Shelled]

JBONE27 wrote...

I will try to make this as spoiler free as possible.  Mass Effect 3's Synthasis ending got evolution wrong.  There is no ultimate goal in evolution.  It is an ongoing process.  It is how life-forms adapt to their envoronments, and has nothing to do with combining organics and synthetics.

That is all... Thank you. 

It's funny because if you look at a story like star trek which is actually very similar to mass effect's that whole borg scenario is laughing at the green ending.

If Captain Picard played ME3 and picked the green ending I think he would have smashed some more glass.

[RyuujinZERO]

Random Jerkface wrote...

DNA doesn't always have specific, purposeful, or meaningful information. Nor is it especially "orderly" or meticulous. When it makes mistakes, it either adapts to them or corrects them, because the punishment for failing to do either is lessened fitness or death. I don't see how that's teleological.

No kidding. Many chromosones have duplicate copies of the same gene simply because copying errors can potentially destroy a gene resulting hampered biological function. There are large portions of chromosones that are more or less "trash" as far as we can tell.

There is no formal order to a chromosone structure nor any organised way of reading a DNA strand from start to finish it tends to be pretty hit and miss where or how a blob of RNA polymerase is going to attach itself and start reading from.

If DNA itself was organised and purposeful we wouldn't even evolve because without duplication errors, there is no mechanism by which new genes can be generated. Evolution would not take place. That in itself pretty much rules out any possibility of formal, organsied or directed evolution

Modifié par RyuujinZERO, 04 avril 2012 - 08:20 .

[Tirigon]

JBONE27 wrote...

I will try to make this as spoiler free as possible.  Mass Effect 3's Synthasis ending got evolution wrong.  There is no ultimate goal in evolution.  It is an ongoing process.  It is how life-forms adapt to their envoronments, and has nothing to do with combining organics and synthetics.

That is all... Thank you. 

Actually it is about random mutations and whether or no an individuum is able to survive and spread them, not about adaptation.

But yea, the ending got it wrong. Just like it got everything else wrong.

[JedTed]

But the Reapers see themselves as gods so from their perspective it would be the final stage of evolution.

[What a Succulent Ass]

We're not talking about perspective. We are talking about objectivity.

And the reapers clearly aren't godlike, considering.

[lawp79]

I'm sorry but after such an amount of time can I just say I do not get the star child thing at all! I mean it is the kid from earth at the beginning right? And the kid from the dreams? So what the frig is he doing there at the end?! Is it some poorly thought out metaphor?

[Tirigon]

JedTed wrote...

But the Reapers see themselves as gods so from their perspective it would be the final stage of evolution.

Gods do not believe in evolution. They are the ultimate creationists, what with being god and all.

[What a Succulent Ass]

lawp79 wrote...

I'm sorry but after such an amount of time can I just say I do not get the star child thing at all! I mean it is the kid from earth at the beginning right? And the kid from the dreams? So what the frig is he doing there at the end?! Is it some poorly thought out metaphor?

The AI or whatever the Guardian is (because that was explained so well, amirite?) presumably took the form of the figure that most psychologically affected Shepard.

...Because we were all so clearly attached.

[Frybread76]

Random Jerkface wrote...

lawp79 wrote...

I'm sorry but after such an amount of time can I just say I do not get the star child thing at all! I mean it is the kid from earth at the beginning right? And the kid from the dreams? So what the frig is he doing there at the end?! Is it some poorly thought out metaphor?

The AI or whatever the Guardian is (because that was explained so well, amirite?) presumably took the form of the figure that most psychologically affected Shepard.

...Because we were all so clearly attached.

It's a shame ithe Star Child couldn't take the form of whomever Shepard chose to die at Virmire in ME1.  I would argue Shepard (and the player) would have more of an emotional attachment to Kaidan/Ashley than to Casper the Ghost.

[What a Succulent Ass]

That seems to be the general consensus.

Although it would be a bit odd for Shepards that managed to kill off their entire team in ME2.

[lawp79]

Random Jerkface wrote...

lawp79 wrote...

I'm sorry but after such an amount of time can I just say I do not get the star child thing at all! I mean it is the kid from earth at the beginning right? And the kid from the dreams? So what the frig is he doing there at the end?! Is it some poorly thought out metaphor?

The AI or whatever the Guardian is (because that was explained so well, amirite?) presumably took the form of the figure that most psychologically affected Shepard.

...Because we were all so clearly attached.

I thought it was possibly that but I was wondering if I was missing some profound meaning, urgh it really was that bad then.

[What a Succulent Ass]

Still, anything would be better than the kid. And the dreams were some of the most hamfisted and terrible additions I've ever seen.

[What a Succulent Ass]

lawp79 wrote...

I thought it was possibly that but I was wondering if I was missing some profound meaning

Nope. But that is what BioWare and some of the white knights would have you believe about the ending.

Modifié par Random Jerkface, 04 avril 2012 - 09:12 .