236 réponses à ce sujet

[Zix13]

Opsrbest wrote...

I consider the endings of ME3 to be contrived. The only ending that really works when you get down to the logic is the Control ending and that isn't explained at all in the game other then TIM couldn't do it because the Reapers already control him. So you have to assert that there is a means to control them but all it shows you is Shepard electrocuting himself. Synthesis creates Keeper clones and destruction leaves you wondering what the N7 person is doing sitting in the rubble.

My god. The reaper child couldn't possibly be lying about the viability of control. The reapers have never been manipulative at all, right TIM?

[brusher225]

FS3D wrote...

 The developers need to look up the definition of "bittersweet" in the dictionary, because they don't have the first clue what it means if they think the travesy that they call an ending is "bittersweet".

It would have been bittersweet if one of your characters, say your LI, or your mother (for spacer playthroughs) died at the end of the game. Hell, it could be considered bittersweet given the fact that trillions of people have already been killed thanks to the reapers across the galaxy, including millions of humans.

What they gave us was depressing and bittersour... Shepard might as well have let the Reapers win.

Exactly! If Shepard and current crew lived through the ending THAT would be bittersweet in light of all the travesty that came beforehand. A victory but at a huge cost even if they lived.  

[DaeJi]

Geneaux486 wrote...

It's bittersweet. Sacrifice to achieve victory.

Except that you don't achieve it. The "victory" Shepard was fighting for was not to defeat the Reapers but to save the galactic civilization from them. She or he cannot do that. The Reapers are driven off, but society falls and billions more WILL die. You literally end the game on the apocalypse and there is not a damn thing Shepard can do to stop it.

Though it  nicely sets up the obvious next game in the series, Mass Effect: Fallout.

[Geneaux486]

Zix13 wrote...
Yes. Assuming starchild isn't lying, which he obviously is. Control = brilliant, worked so well for the illusive man. Synthesis = too idiotic and unethical to even be considered. Destroy is the only ending that any sane person would pick given that impossible situation. 

How is the Catalyst obviously lying when everything he says will happen with any of the choices Shepard makes, does happen.  It's quite the opposite really, the Catalyst was being completely honest.

Except that you don't achieve it. The "victory" Shepard was fighting for was not to defeat the Reapers but to save the galactic civilization from them. She or he cannot do that. The Reapers are driven off, but society falls and billions more WILL die. You literally end the game on the apocalypse and there is not a damn thing Shepard can do to stop it.

Well first of all, Shepard is fighting either to save the galaxy or to kill the Reapers, depending on the personality you choose for Shep through dialogue, etc.  Secondly, the Crucible was the only option for defeating the Reapers, and was forged by countless cycles as a means of taking back control of the future from the Reapers by force.  Shepard's goal is to activate the Crucible and do that, even though there are assumed risks.  Victory lies in doing so, and Shepard does so.  As for it being apolcalyptic, Joker crash lands on a planet that would have been hit by the energy coming from an exploding relay, and the planet is still in tact, as are those aboard the Normandy so we know the explosions aren't going supernova.  Furthermore, in the control ending, Shepard has control over the beings who built the Mass Relays in the first place.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 04 avril 2012 - 04:56 .

[DaeJi]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Well first of all, Shepard is fighting either to save the galaxy or to kill the Reapers, depending on the personality you choose for Shep through dialogue, etc.  Secondly, the Crucible was the only option for defeating the Reapers, and was forged by countless cycles as a means of taking back control of the future from the Reapers by force.  Shepard's goal is to activate the Crucible and do that, even though there are assumed risks.  Victory lies in doing so, and Shepard does so.

No, Shepard is trying to save the galaxy, not kill the Reapers. If Shepard could talk the Reapers into leaving, she or he would do just that. As well there were other ways to beat the Reapers. The Illusive Man mentioned finding a weapon that took down a Reaper light years. Study that, rebuild that. As well, true victory lies not in the completion of an objective but in the outcome of completing said objective. The outcome of the Crucible is that society is doomed and the survivers of what is again an apocalypse will have to endure unmeasured suffereing for 10s of thousands, prehaps 100s of thousands of years. It would be the same a nuclear war in our time, where say Russia invades everyone and the "only" way to stop them is to burn the world so that just enough people survive to contine the human race.

That is not winning, that is losing slightly less than you could of.

[Geneaux486]

No, Shepard is trying to save the galaxy, not kill the Reapers.

You can choose which motivations Shepard vocalizes.  It'd be like if you said "No, Shepard is a spacer kid who lost his unit on Akuze, not an Earthborn kid who saved his squad."  It's completely up to how you play the game.

If Shepard could talk the Reapers into leaving, she or he would do just that. As well there were other ways to beat the Reapers. The Illusive Man mentioned finding a weapon that took down a Reaper light years. Study that, rebuild that.

Yeah, the weapon worked right before the species died from all the other reapers attacking them.
 

As well, true victory lies not in the completion of an objective but in the outcome of completing said objective. The outcome of the Crucible is that society is doomed and the survivers of what is again an apocalypse will have to endure unmeasured suffereing for 10s of thousands, prehaps 100s of thousands of years. It would be the same a nuclear war in our time, where say Russia invades everyone and the "only" way to stop them is to burn the world so that just enough people survive to contine the human race.

That's a possible outcome, but not guaranteed.  To the degree that you've stated I'd say it's not even likely unless you got the worst possible ending.  As I've pointed out, in two of the three possible big choices, the beings that built the Mass Relays are still around, so the network probably would not be down for all that long.  Hell, even in destroy they could salvage the reaper tech and the remains of the mass relays and construct new ones or something similar.

That is not winning, that is losing slightly less than you could of.

Against an unimaginably powerful threat that the galaxy waited until after the last possible minute to prepare for.  The war went about as well as it could have without the writers nerfing the reapers.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 04 avril 2012 - 05:14 .

[DaeJi]

Geneaux486 wrote...

That's a possible outcome, but not guaranteed.  To the degree that you've stated I'd say it's not even likely unless you got the worst possible ending.

The star gazer scene is supposed to take place 10,000 years after Mass Effect 3's events, and they talk about space travel as something that may be possible in the future. So we know that at least for 10,000 years the galaxy is in a technological dark age and is less advance than what they were.

True bittersweet has to end on hope. There has to be a chance that the future will be brighter. If you would like an example of a well done bittersweet ending, in the third installment of a franchise, in a kids movie, a Disney/Pixar movie at that, look at Toy Story 3. Despite the fact that Woody, Buzz, and the rest will not see Andy again, and how hard it was for them to let him go, there is the ray of happiness that is their new home, with a new kid who love them and play with them.

Mass Effect 3 does not have that hope. That life continues isn't a sweet sentiment, hell that would have been the case had the Reapers completed the cycles, it just wouldn't be human life continuing. No matter what the society in Mass Effect that was the setting for the whole series has been so thoroghly destroyed that in 10000 years nothing will remain of it but stories. The only way that would work for a bittersweet ending is if there were a hint that things get better, and there isn't.

The ending is bleak. There is no light at the end of the tunnel, only the possbility that a light may one day be glimpsed.

[GigaTheToast]

The 'sweet' part was supposed to be that the cycle of reaper dominance was broken, not that it matters since all we know about future civilization is that they all have horrible voice actors... all two of 'em.

Bioware seemed to think we'd be more emotionally invested in characters we've never seen nor cared for then the actual people we've grown to love over the past 5 years. So I believe that constitutes a 'massive failure'.

[DuneMuadDib]

Well it's not bittersweet, because I'm not convinced that Bioware understands what that word means.

[Geneaux486]

DaeJi wrote...
The star gazer scene is supposed to take place 10,000 years after Mass Effect 3's events, and they talk about space travel as something that may be possible in the future. So we know that at least for 10,000 years the galaxy is in a technological dark age and is less advance than what they were.

Incorrect, the star gazer tells the kid with him that someday the kid can go into space, presumably when he's older.

True bittersweet has to end on hope. There has to be a chance that the future will be brighter. If you would like an example of a well done bittersweet ending, in the third installment of a franchise, in a kids movie, a Disney/Pixar movie at that, look at Toy Story 3. Despite the fact that Woody, Buzz, and the rest will not see Andy again, and how hard it was for them to let him go, there is the ray of happiness that is their new home, with a new kid who love them and play with them.

Mass Effect 3 does not have that hope. That life continues isn't a sweet sentiment, hell that would have been the case had the Reapers completed the cycles, it just wouldn't be human life continuing. No matter what the society in Mass Effect that was the setting for the whole series has been so thoroghly destroyed that in 10000 years nothing will remain of it but stories. The only way that would work for a bittersweet ending is if there were a hint that things get better, and there isn't.

The ending does have hope, depending on how you do it.  The Reapers operate on a logical fallacy, taking organic races and twisting them into techno-organic monsters via the most barbaric and painful means imagineable.  The end of the game shows organics taking control of their own future, and choosing their own path.  Goes back to conversations Shepard had with Legion about why the Geth rejected the Reapers when first approached by them.  Shepard wins the right of all life to build its own future, free of reaper manipulation.  Looking at the threat the reapers presented through all three games, and all the demonstrations of their immense power, yes, it is a huge victory, and the first time galactic civilization is truly free.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 04 avril 2012 - 05:34 .

[Mithrawn]

Its a fail

[ShepnTali]

Massive failure.

[stcalvin13]

It's only a massive failure if worst ending in Sci-fi history counts as a massive failure . . .

so yeah, probably a massive failure.

[DaeJi]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Incorrect, the star gazer tells the kid with him that someday the kid can go into space, presumably when he's older.

Listen to it again, he talks about other races are something out to find. Technology is not at the level it was during the timeline of the Mass Effect games.

The ending does have hope, depending on how you do it.  The Reapers operate on a logical fallacy, taking organic races and twisting them into techno-organic monsters via the most barbaric and painful means imagineable.  The end of the game shows organics taking control of their own future, and choosing their own path.  Goes back to conversations Shepard had with Legion about why the Geth rejected the Reapers when first approached by them.  Shepard wins the right of all life to build its own future, free of reaper manipulation.  Looking at the threat the reapers presented through all three games, and all the demonstrations of their immense power, yes, it is a huge victory, and the first time galactic civilization is truly free.

But the galaxy is not free of the Reapers. Best case scenario, everyone will still use Mass Effect technology, the technology left behind by the Reapers so that they can evolve along a certain path. Just because the Reapers and Relays are gone doesn't mean that people are just going to decide to try new tech. The best case scenario has everyone trying to recreate the Relays, making destroying them pointless.

[Xandurpein]

Massive failure. Total loss of narrative cohesion.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 04 avril 2012 - 05:42 .

[Geneaux486]

Listen to it again, he talks about other races are something out to find. Technology is not at the level it was during the timeline of the Mass Effect games.

What he says about other races is irrelevant to the state of their technology. There is no evidence in that final scene that technology was set back.

But the galaxy is not free of the Reapers. Best case scenario, everyone will still use Mass Effect technology, the technology left behind by the Reapers so that they can evolve along a certain path. Just because the Reapers and Relays are gone doesn't mean that people are just going to decide to try new tech. The best case scenario has everyone trying to recreate the Relays, making destroying them pointless.

So continuing to make use of the Mass Effect technology is as bad as the Reapers melting people alive to turn them into additional reapers? Look, no matter how you choose to see it, the fact is that after the end of ME3, organics are no longer being forced into a future of being preserved in reaper form. That fact alone is the "sweet" in the "bittersweet".  Even if they use what's left of reaper tech, they're still using it to build their own future, either free of reapers completely, or with the reapers being either subservient or co-existing.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 04 avril 2012 - 05:47 .

[DaeJi]

Geneaux486 wrote...

So continueing to make use of the Mass Effect technology is as bad as the Reapers melting people alive to turn them into additional reapers? Look, no matter how you choose to see it, the fact is that after the end of ME3, organics are no longer being forced into a future of being preserved in reaper form. That fact alone is the "sweet" in the "bittersweet".  Even if they use what's left of reaper tech, they're still using it to build their own future, either free of reapers completely, or with the reapers being either subservient or co-existing.

We must agree to disagree. Neither of seem to accept the merit of the other's view, or at least I do not. All I see in the endings is a worst case scenario one degree better than "Reapers win."

[byarru]

FAILURE !

[Geneaux486]

DaeJi wrote...
We must agree to disagree. Neither of seem to accept the merit of the other's view, or at least I do not. All I see in the endings is a worst case scenario one degree better than "Reapers win."

I do see the merit of your view.  I also appreciate your honesty in saying that you do not see mine.  I suppose agreeing to disagree is all we can do.  I still enjoyed our discussion though

Modifié par Geneaux486, 04 avril 2012 - 05:53 .

[Ieldra]

MrFob wrote...
I consider it bitter only, no sweetness whatsoever. Combine that with no closure and massive plot holes and I got to go with appalling failure.

QFT.

It bears repeating.

[Rabid Rooster]

Bitter Failure

[Johcande XX]

Galactic Failure!

[ZalmoxisX]

The endings were a massive failure and were as bitter sweet as a bile filled cupcake.


-Hold the line.

[Apatche69]

It did a great job of making you feel hopeless as the game went on. But when I was playing I truly felt the wheels coming off during and after Thessia. So much potential wasted. Failure...

[MentalKase]

I wish Shepard could just put that pistol in his/her mouth and pull the trigger, would be a better ending than what we got.