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Bioware actually used the Indoctrination Theory hallucination idea


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#1
Zombie Chow

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Like many of you, I did not find the current ending of Mass Effect 3 entirely satisfactory.  You likely know what I mean and you feel as I do, so I won't get into that.

I've been looking at the Indoctrination Theory thread and the video at , where the ending is basically a hallucination the Reapers created in Shepard's mind to fool him into just giving up.  The train of thought and supporting evidence makes a lot of sense to me, at least more than taking the ending at face value.

What struck me was that Bioware has already done something like this, but almost a decade ago.  It was in the game Neverwinter Nights, in an expansion called Hordes of the Underdark.

It was a Dungeons & Dragons fantasy RPG, where at one point you confront an advanced civilisation of psychic Mind Flayers, ruled by a giant Elder Brain.  You can choose to negotiate with it, but if you try to attack, it psychically creates an illusion that makes you think you've won the war, ended up in a small idyllic forest, with a charming hostess inviting you to a celebration (to my recollection, it's been years since I played this).  If you accept, the credits roll exactly as if you completed the game.

The preferred solution against the Elder Brain, of course, was to use your character's Wisdom score or just common sense to break out of the psychic deception and fight back.

Edit - Below, fellow player Ellychid32 pointed out something even I missed.  Bioware also used this mind trick idea in Dragon Age: Origins (during a sequence where you enter the world of dreams).  Again an enemy mentally constructs a perfect scenario where your mentor congratulates you on your victory and the only way out is to attack him.  This trope just seems to be something that Bioware likes to use, 10 years ago, 3 years ago, and IMHO now.

Now back to ME3.  I just found the secret ending to keep Shepard alive.  More importantly, it only applies if you choose to destroy all synths, both Reaper and Geth according to the God Child.  I didn't choose that before as that seems too Renegade for my previous Shepard alts, but now I know that exists, it maps closely to the situation in Hordes of the Underdark.  The "correct answer" is not to make peace, not to control, not to even try to be a Paragon, but just fight back to resist the illusion.

I believe the pieces of evidence in the Indoctrination Theory are intentional clues left by Bioware.  The current endings are a deliberate and very convincing mind trick not just on Shepard, but on us as players so that we're really immersed.  We totally fell for it, so well done, Bioware!  Bioware wants the fans to figure it out before they release a DLC that builds on this. Well, clearly you did figure it out, with your beautiful explanations, and soon the DLC with the true ending is coming.

I just wanted to share this information to those that never played the Neverwinter Nights series (as they're quite old), seeing that this is a sort of mind trick Bioware used before, to show that hope is on the way.

Modifié par Zombie Chow, 04 avril 2012 - 07:08 .


#2
dreman9999

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bump this....People need to know..

#3
farhansdisplayname

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Good to hear.

#4
Aedan276

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Zombie Chow wrote...

Like many of you, I did not find the current ending of Mass Effect 3 entirely satisfactory.  You likely know what I mean and you feel as I do, so I won't get into that.

I've been looking at the Indoctrination Theory thread and the video at , where the ending is basically a hallucination the Reapers created in Shepard's mind to fool him into just giving up.  The train of thought and supporting evidence makes a lot of sense to me, at least more than taking the ending at face value.

What struck me was that Bioware has already done something like this, but almost a decade ago.  It was in the game Neverwinter Nights, in an expansion called Hordes of the Underdark.

It was a Dungeons & Dragons fantasy RPG, where at one point you confront an advanced civilisation of psychic Mind Flayers, ruled by a giant Elder Brain.  You can choose to negotiate with it, but if you try to attack, it psychically creates an illusion that makes you think you've won the war, ended up in a small idyllic forest, with a charming hostess inviting you to a celebration (to my recollection, it's been years since I played this).  If you accept, the credits roll exactly as if you completed the game.

The preferred solution against the Elder Brain, of course, was to use your character's Wisdom score or just common sense to break out of the psychic deception and fight back.

Now back to ME3.  I just found the secret ending to keep Shepard alive.  More importantly, it only applies if you choose to destroy all synths, both Reaper and Geth according to the God Child.  I didn't choose that before as that seems too Renegade for my previous Shepard alts, but now I know that exists, it maps closely to the situation in Hordes of the Underdark.  The "correct answer" is not to make peace, not to control, not to even try to be a Paragon, but just fight back to resist the illusion.

I believe the pieces of evidence in the Indoctrination Theory are intentional clues left by Bioware.  The current endings are a deliberate and very convincing mind trick not just on Shepard, but on us as players so that we're really immersed.  We totally fell for it, so well done, Bioware!  Bioware wants the fans to figure it out before they release a DLC that builds on this. Well, clearly you did figure it out, with your beautiful explanations, and soon the DLC with the true ending is coming.

I just wanted to share this information to those that never played the Neverwinter Nights series (as they're quite old), seeing that this is a sort of mind trick Bioware used before, to show that hope is on the way.


Ah, Hordes of the Underdark. The underappreciated cousin of Baldur's Gate II's expansion. 

 

#5
SuperVulcan

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I hope you are right.

#6
StrickenMaverick

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Why would Bioware have Ray speak about the endings to try and control the PR disaster if the plan all along was indoc? Same with them defending the endings as art. Don't get me wrong, I sort of hope that this is true, as the only ending I have ever selected was "destroy". Seeing Anderson in the vision shooting the whatever it was convinced me as well as the fact that Shepard only 'survives' in that choice to stick with destroy. Our objective all along was to kill the reapers, why would we change that objective in the last five minutes?

#7
Leozilla

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mind=blown, thank you for this little tidbit of info

#8
GigaTheToast

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I want to believe you IT guys but I'm not drinking any kool-aid you give me.

Modifié par GigaTheToast, 04 avril 2012 - 05:52 .


#9
Hraedonius

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"Lazy writing" is an explanation that is much more plausible than "an elaborate set of clues that merely appears to be lazy writing." Even granting the premise, one still has to explain the point of the Stargazer ending followed by the appeal to "expand the legend" through DLC: is that also part of the cunning plot to release an unfinished game?

#10
iSpider-Man

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Leozilla wrote...

mind=blown, thank you for this little tidbit of info



#11
Elana.S

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The motif of breaking free of illusions also features in the Dragon Age series quite often (see: Fade missions in both Origins and II).

#12
Aznable Char

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Actually , I kind of hope this is true as well because BioWare did say that the ending "will not change" and in that regard the only way that I feel I would be completely satisfied with a New ending without the current ending changing is some kind of hallucination/indoc explanation .

#13
Militarized

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StrickenMaverick wrote...

Why would Bioware have Ray speak about the endings to try and control the PR disaster if the plan all along was indoc? Same with them defending the endings as art. Don't get me wrong, I sort of hope that this is true, as the only ending I have ever selected was "destroy". Seeing Anderson in the vision shooting the whatever it was convinced me as well as the fact that Shepard only 'survives' in that choice to stick with destroy. Our objective all along was to kill the reapers, why would we change that objective in the last five minutes?


The only logic reason is a strict NDA... but still, they might void it with this crap storm but they didn't. 

#14
dreman9999

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StrickenMaverick wrote...

Why would Bioware have Ray speak about the endings to try and control the PR disaster if the plan all along was indoc? Same with them defending the endings as art. Don't get me wrong, I sort of hope that this is true, as the only ending I have ever selected was "destroy". Seeing Anderson in the vision shooting the whatever it was convinced me as well as the fact that Shepard only 'survives' in that choice to stick with destroy. Our objective all along was to kill the reapers, why would we change that objective in the last five minutes?

1. Telling what is really going on with the ending would spoil the game for other people who have not finished the game yet.

2.Indoctrination is something to use to control and change peoples minds.

3. The pr disaster was really getiing out of control.

#15
Foulpancake

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wow i completely forgot about that expansion and the fake ending you could get. Hmm the plot thickens

#16
goose2989

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SuperVulcan wrote...

I hope you are right.


I'll remain skeptical - 

Image IPB 

#17
dognip5

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Thanks for the share OP!

#18
dreman9999

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Hraedonius wrote...

"Lazy writing" is an explanation that is much more plausible than "an elaborate set of clues that merely appears to be lazy writing." Even granting the premise, one still has to explain the point of the Stargazer ending followed by the appeal to "expand the legend" through DLC: is that also part of the cunning plot to release an unfinished game?

If it was a case of lazy writing...The game would end in the scene with Anderson and Shepard.
Also, the clues were built up during the last 3 games....
Read this to understand...
http://social.biowar...ndex/10946125/1 

#19
HellishFiend

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This doesnt really surprise me, because the general plotline of the entire mass effect universe has been done before too (Star Control 3).

That doesnt mean I dont like the way Mass Effect does it better, but the point is that the plot and the ending (if IT turns out to be true) are simply new takes on stories that have been done before.

#20
Ellychid32

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Wasn't there a scene in DA:O like this as well? You woke up in the Grey Warden palace (or whatever it was, can't remember exactly) to find Duncan there. He says the war is won. You quickly figure out it is a dream.

#21
Wabajakka

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Leozilla wrote...

mind=blown, thank you for this little tidbit of info



#22
Mad-Max90

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I'm 70% IT and 30% just bad/lazy writing on the issue

#23
goose2989

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Ellychid32 wrote...

Wasn't there a scene in DA:O like this as well? You woke up in the Grey Warden palace (or whatever it was, can't remember exactly) to find Duncan there. He says the war is won. You quickly figure out it is a dream.


Yea, but in that you already knew it was going to be a dream. You were in the Fade

#24
aimlessgun

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It would be a nice parallel...if all 3 endings didn't suck horribly. It's not like you're rejecting paradise here, each one is a different color of crap.

#25
Eyelidsz

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I WANT TO BELIEVE