300 réponses à ce sujet

[OH-UP-THIS!]

now that is someone who deserves a respectable forum discussion. thank you.

[elecmanexe001]

estebanus wrote...

ohupthis wrote...

estebanus wrote...

God, I really wish more people were like EpyonX3...

What is an EpyonX3?

He is a person who we keep on debating with in the IT thread. He doesn't believe in it, but he always supports his claims with valid evidence, which we then keep on discussing about. Also, he doesn't treat us like crap, and his posts are always friendly.

Thats.... a very uncommon sight around these parts now a days. I should go over to the IT thread and see this for myself lol. I like a good discussion without an argument.

[balance5050]

elecmanexe001 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

ohupthis wrote...

estebanus wrote...

God, I really wish more people were like EpyonX3...

What is an EpyonX3?

He is a person who we keep on debating with in the IT thread. He doesn't believe in it, but he always supports his claims with valid evidence, which we then keep on discussing about. Also, he doesn't treat us like crap, and his posts are always friendly.

Thats.... a very uncommon sight around these parts now a days. I should go over to the IT thread and see this for myself lol. I like a good discussion without an argument.

Yeah, the IT thread encourages civil debate no matter what your stance is. Key word: CIVIL

[Meatus]

 I've never played Neverwinter Nights, but I did play Dragon Age: Origins for the first time after beating ME3, and Bioware certainly does love the idea of bizarre alternate realities. If it hasn't been posted already in this thread, this video (a truly remarkable find in favor of IT, difficult for anyone to dispute) kind of perpetuates that, considering you said in Neverwinter Nights, this illusory ending included a forest? And all the dreams in ME3 took place in a forest. Well, someone found this (almost creepy, IMO) continuation of the forest theme, where trees are reflected on the Citadel, where the Catalyst is. youtu.be/rTopy1amQRc

Modifié par Meatus, 12 mai 2012 - 10:18 .

[Scimal]

Meatus wrote...

 I've never played Neverwinter Nights, but I did play Dragon Age: Origins for the first time after beating ME3, and Bioware certainly does love the idea of bizarre alternate realities. If it hasn't been posted already in this thread, this video (a truly remarkable find in favor of IT, difficult for anyone to dispute) kind of perpetuates that, considering you said in Neverwinter Nights, this illusory ending included a forest? And all the dreams in ME3 took place in a forest. Well, someone found this (almost creepy, IMO) continuation of the forest theme, where trees are reflected on the Citadel, where the Catalyst is. youtu.be/rTopy1amQRc

How do you know it's not the trees on the Citadel that are being reflected?

[balance5050]

Scimal wrote...

Meatus wrote...

 I've never played Neverwinter Nights, but I did play Dragon Age: Origins for the first time after beating ME3, and Bioware certainly does love the idea of bizarre alternate realities. If it hasn't been posted already in this thread, this video (a truly remarkable find in favor of IT, difficult for anyone to dispute) kind of perpetuates that, considering you said in Neverwinter Nights, this illusory ending included a forest? And all the dreams in ME3 took place in a forest. Well, someone found this (almost creepy, IMO) continuation of the forest theme, where trees are reflected on the Citadel, where the Catalyst is. youtu.be/rTopy1amQRc

snip

How do you know it's not the trees on the Citadel that are being reflected?

LOL, you serious? there are no trees on that part of the citadel....

Modifié par balance5050, 12 mai 2012 - 10:25 .

[oxdarkfirexo]

Awesome find, I never realised that Bioware had done this before. I'm hoping this is true.

[elecmanexe001]

yea lol that part Shepard is on is pretty much literally in space.

[FFHAuthor]

GravityEyelids wrote...

I WANT TO BELIEVE

Yeah...me too comrade, me too...

Modifié par FFHAuthor, 12 mai 2012 - 11:30 .

[FFHAuthor]

Meatus wrote...

Right now I'm torn between "What the hell? Could that mean..." and referrencing my Sig.  So either that is an 'Eleventh Hour' quality sneak in clue (points to anyone who get's the reference), or Bioware was just Lazy, stupid, or didn't care what they showed fans...

[liggy002]

Zombie Chow wrote...

Like many of you, I did not find the current ending of Mass Effect 3 entirely satisfactory.  You likely know what I mean and you feel as I do, so I won't get into that.

I've been looking at the Indoctrination Theory thread and the video at , where the ending is basically a hallucination the Reapers created in Shepard's mind to fool him into just giving up.  The train of thought and supporting evidence makes a lot of sense to me, at least more than taking the ending at face value.

What struck me was that Bioware has already done something like this, but almost a decade ago.  It was in the game Neverwinter Nights, in an expansion called Hordes of the Underdark.

It was a Dungeons & Dragons fantasy RPG, where at one point you confront an advanced civilisation of psychic Mind Flayers, ruled by a giant Elder Brain.  You can choose to negotiate with it, but if you try to attack, it psychically creates an illusion that makes you think you've won the war, ended up in a small idyllic forest, with a charming hostess inviting you to a celebration (to my recollection, it's been years since I played this).  If you accept, the credits roll exactly as if you completed the game.

The preferred solution against the Elder Brain, of course, was to use your character's Wisdom score or just common sense to break out of the psychic deception and fight back.

Edit - Below, fellow player Ellychid32 pointed out something even I missed.  Bioware also used this mind trick idea in Dragon Age: Origins (during a sequence where you enter the world of dreams).  Again an enemy mentally constructs a perfect scenario where your mentor congratulates you on your victory and the only way out is to attack him.  This trope just seems to be something that Bioware likes to use, 10 years ago, 3 years ago, and IMHO now.

Now back to ME3.  I just found the secret ending to keep Shepard alive.  More importantly, it only applies if you choose to destroy all synths, both Reaper and Geth according to the God Child.  I didn't choose that before as that seems too Renegade for my previous Shepard alts, but now I know that exists, it maps closely to the situation in Hordes of the Underdark.  The "correct answer" is not to make peace, not to control, not to even try to be a Paragon, but just fight back to resist the illusion.

I believe the pieces of evidence in the Indoctrination Theory are intentional clues left by Bioware.  The current endings are a deliberate and very convincing mind trick not just on Shepard, but on us as players so that we're really immersed.  We totally fell for it, so well done, Bioware!  Bioware wants the fans to figure it out before they release a DLC that builds on this. Well, clearly you did figure it out, with your beautiful explanations, and soon the DLC with the true ending is coming.

I just wanted to share this information to those that never played the Neverwinter Nights series (as they're quite old), seeing that this is a sort of mind trick Bioware used before, to show that hope is on the way.

Zombie chow is referring to the Sloth demon from Dragon Age origins who essentially pulls you into a dream world by putting your characters to sleep.  He then attempts to trap your characters in the dream world forever by attempting to make you give in to laziness and just stop fighting.

[UBER GEEKZILLA]

t IT is true

[liggy002]

Hraedonius wrote...

"Lazy writing" is an explanation that is much more plausible than "an elaborate set of clues that merely appears to be lazy writing." Even granting the premise, one still has to explain the point of the Stargazer ending followed by the appeal to "expand the legend" through DLC: is that also part of the cunning plot to release an unfinished game?

The Stargazer did say that there was "one more story."

[liggy002]

balance5050 wrote...

Scimal wrote...

Meatus wrote...

 I've never played Neverwinter Nights, but I did play Dragon Age: Origins for the first time after beating ME3, and Bioware certainly does love the idea of bizarre alternate realities. If it hasn't been posted already in this thread, this video (a truly remarkable find in favor of IT, difficult for anyone to dispute) kind of perpetuates that, considering you said in Neverwinter Nights, this illusory ending included a forest? And all the dreams in ME3 took place in a forest. Well, someone found this (almost creepy, IMO) continuation of the forest theme, where trees are reflected on the Citadel, where the Catalyst is. youtu.be/rTopy1amQRc

snip

How do you know it's not the trees on the Citadel that are being reflected?

LOL, you serious? there are no trees on that part of the citadel....

Seriously, why would trees even be there?  It's a part of the Citadel on which none of its inhabitants would walk.

[Kali Agar]

"Tell me another story about the Shepard'. "It's getting late, but OK. One more story"
>One more story
>more story
>DLC

[comrade gando]

What about the stargazer scene. Was that a dream as well? I dont see any clues that can explain that it just kinda came out of nowhere and essentially retconned the entire trilogy out of existence. Like saying "hey I know u tried real hard to save the galaxy but it was all a made up story none of it really happened, thanks for playing! THE END"

[TSA_383]

Can I just say guys, I'm glad this thread's come back to life, as it's something that needs to be taken account of in the discussion as a whole (and christ, I've posted it everywhere...)

Pelle6666 wrote...

Nice! It might also have something to do with the leaked script for the original ending and that made BW make this ending so that they could expand it without changing the release date.
What I find disturbing is that BW have said that no post ending is planned which makes me a bit unsure that this theory is correct even if I would love if it was.

They said they weren't going to change the endings...
But, with the ending already planned to be an illusion...

MaximizedAction wrote...

Gosh, just read the OP and unfortunately didn't play NVN or DA:Om so I didn't know they've done something like this before..
Though
I'm now a bit ashamed of initially having doubted Bioware's abilities, I
wonder, if so many here are 'real' Bioware fans, why was the BSN
flooded mostly with rage posts back in March?
DA:O doesn't seem so old that most would've forgotten it.

To be honest, I think putting a plotline like this into ME3 was a gamble. Hopefully (assuming it's true but I don't really see any other logical conclusion) then it'll pay off.
So many people refuse to read into game stories - it's a shame, I think a lot of people who've not read books with a twisted-reality sort of feel will miss out on some of the cues from this, but I grew up on Orwell and Huxley and the like (probably why I'm now such a cynical, suspicious adult ).

To be fair to them, the plots in Mass Effect before now have never been exactly taxing, it's been "reapers bad, you good, kill reapers" and that's roughly the limit of it

pistolols wrote...

I like thinking about IT but i also
really like Control ending so if OP is correct this has conflicting
feelings for me. I really like the idea of Shepard becoming the reaper
king and immortilized by transforming into the Citadel. Couldn't have
asked for a more epic end(?) to Shepard's life. For me Shepard
basically becoming a god has the coolest implications for the future of
the Mass Effect universe.

To quote the catalyst: "you will use everything you have"

The thing controlling the reapers ultimately wouldn't be shepard

LadyWench wrote...

Huge fan of NWN and I TOTALLY forgot
about that part!!! Thanks for the refresher and making an interesting
parallel...only sad part is, the TRUE ending for HotU was, you know,
still there waiting for you and not, say, another expansion you had to
wait months for, so I don't know...LOL

Ah, but EA wasn't on board then Being the big fans of DLC that they are...
My suspicion is that the plan was originally to charge for the EC, but that's been changed due to the massive scale of the fan outcry.
Just a hunch.

[Scimal]

balance5050 wrote...

LOL, you serious? there are no trees on that part of the citadel....

So, no, you're not sure other than you assume that part of the Citadel doesn't have trees.

The cinematic for the docking shows lights all around the point where the Crucible docks, and trees are on the Presidium anyways.

What I find hilarious is that you'll so easily shoot down one idea while supporting another that has as much, if not less, evidence. You're essentially saying that since there isn't a single tree anywhere in that area (which you don't know for sure), obviously Shepard must be hallucinating a recreation of his dream sequence because he was indoctrinated.

Much more sense. Either there's some trees nearby, or Shepard has been indoctrinated. Given how sloppy the rest of the writing is, I'm inclined to say the former.

[Scimal]

elecmanexe001 wrote...

yea lol that part Shepard is on is pretty much literally in space.

Except it's on the bottom of the Presidium - which has trees, less we forget ME1. It's as much in space as anything else on the Presidium.

[Savber100]

Scimal wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

LOL, you serious? there are no trees on that part of the citadel....

So, no, you're not sure other than you assume that part of the Citadel doesn't have trees.

The cinematic for the docking shows lights all around the point where the Crucible docks, and trees are on the Presidium anyways.

What I find hilarious is that you'll so easily shoot down one idea while supporting another that has as much, if not less, evidence. You're essentially saying that since there isn't a single tree anywhere in that area (which you don't know for sure), obviously Shepard must be hallucinating a recreation of his dream sequence because he was indoctrinated.

Much more sense. Either there's some trees nearby, or Shepard has been indoctrinated. Given how sloppy the rest of the writing is, I'm inclined to say the former.

Wait if trees are reflecting from the floor in that area of the Citadel, shouldn't it be visible above when Shep looks up? 

[Scimal]

Savber100 wrote...

Wait if trees are reflecting from the floor in that area of the Citadel, shouldn't it be visible above when Shep looks up? 

Not necessarily. Plane mirrors reflect light at the angle of incidence, not 90-degrees to the surface of the mirror.

[TSA_383]

Scimal wrote...

Savber100 wrote...

Wait if trees are reflecting from the floor in that area of the Citadel, shouldn't it be visible above when Shep looks up? 

Not necessarily. Plane mirrors reflect light at the angle of incidence, not 90-degrees to the surface of the mirror.

That's not how reflections are done in unreal, there are cubemaps in the game files which give the game a texture cube to base reflections on.
Bizarrely, they've put trees into it.

The original script, in which Javik was the Catalyst, and the child was called Guardian (it's still referred to as guardian throughout) referred to the area where the choice is made as "guardian's garden"

That said, the cubemaps are usually the last thing you make after the rest of the 3D stuff's done, so I'm not sure why they wouldn't take those out if they redesigned the "choice" room.

I do find it weak as a support of IT, there's much better things you could say in favour and yet people seem to spend a lot of time talking about these damn tree reflections just because they're a mystery.

[KingZayd]

TSA_383 wrote...

Scimal wrote...

Savber100 wrote...

Wait if trees are reflecting from the floor in that area of the Citadel, shouldn't it be visible above when Shep looks up? 

Not necessarily. Plane mirrors reflect light at the angle of incidence, not 90-degrees to the surface of the mirror.

That's not how reflections are done in unreal, there are cubemaps in the game files which give the game a texture cube to base reflections on.
Bizarrely, they've put trees into it.

The original script, in which Javik was the Catalyst, and the child was called Guardian (it's still referred to as guardian throughout) referred to the area where the choice is made as "guardian's garden"

That said, the cubemaps are usually the last thing you make after the rest of the 3D stuff's done, so I'm not sure why they wouldn't take those out if they redesigned the "choice" room.

I do find it weak as a support of IT, there's much better things you could say in favour and yet people seem to spend a lot of time talking about these damn tree reflections just because they're a mystery.

So they were going to have this scene take  place in a "garden" full of such trees before? I think there would have been a lot more fuss about those "dream trees" in that case.


I wouldn't consider it strong evidence either, but it's certainly odd.

Modifié par KingZayd, 13 mai 2012 - 02:54 .

[CavScout]

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote...
You do not have evidence backing up your claims. Like Birthers and Truthers you claim to have evidence or spout "explain this or it must be IT!".

It's better than standing for nothing and continuously looking like a SELF HATING, CLOSETED IT SUPPORTER.

LOL, more "logic" from Indocrination Theory preachers, if you dismiss IT you really are for IT!

[CavScout]

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote..
You're false is thinking all opinions have equal validity....

But you never say your opinion on what the endings mean, so you have zero validity.

What kind of nonesens do you ascribe to?