300 réponses à ce sujet

[CavScout]

estebanus wrote...

CavScout wrote...
You do not have evidence backing up your claims. Like Birthers and Truthers you claim to have evidence or spout "explain this or it must be IT!".

Ok, if you say we don't have any evidence, you must either be a troll, or you haven't even taken a look at what we've gathered.

If anything, you and a lot of other people act like those you just described. You say: "We all have a lot of evidence disproving the IT!" But you never show it. Ultimately, it culminates into saying "You're wrong because I said so", nothing more.

Collecting unrelated points and saying their connected in a giant conspiracy is not "evidence". And saying folks must agree or are troll is surprising self-serving.

PS: We don't need to "disprove" IT, its supporters must show evidence for it.

[CavScout]

Meatus wrote...

 I've never played Neverwinter Nights, but I did play Dragon Age: Origins for the first time after beating ME3, and Bioware certainly does love the idea of bizarre alternate realities. If it hasn't been posted already in this thread, this video (a truly remarkable find in favor of IT, difficult for anyone to dispute) kind of perpetuates that, considering you said in Neverwinter Nights, this illusory ending included a forest? And all the dreams in ME3 took place in a forest. Well, someone found this (almost creepy, IMO) continuation of the forest theme, where trees are reflected on the Citadel, where the Catalyst is. youtu.be/rTopy1amQRc

If odd reflections are proof of Indoctrination Theory, then this game must have Indoctrination as well. Even though it is unrelated to ME it has reflections in walls that don't belong.

[pistolols]

TSA_383 wrote...

pistolols wrote...

I like thinking about IT but i also
really like Control ending so if OP is correct this has conflicting
feelings for me. I really like the idea of Shepard becoming the reaper
king and immortilized by transforming into the Citadel. Couldn't have
asked for a more epic end(?) to Shepard's life. For me Shepard
basically becoming a god has the coolest implications for the future of
the Mass Effect universe.

To quote the catalyst: "you will use everything you have"

The thing controlling the reapers ultimately wouldn't be shepard

Yeah kinda like Leto acknowledging he is no longer human as he begins transforming into a sandworm   

To be honest i don't really care, it's cool.  And i think "you will lose everything you have" is open for interpretation just as everything else the catalyst says is.  Yeah Shepard is losing his body, losing his life as Commander Shepard, but he is taking on something else.  Beginning a new form of existence as an immortal intelligence.  His consciousness is being uploaded into the citadel.  The Citadel is now a part of him, just as it was a part of the catalyst before him, similar to how the Normandy became a part of Edi in ME2, perhaps.  I don't question whether it's "still Shepard" immediately after, i believe in a sense it is, the question is will it still be Shepard after millennia of living out that existence?  After thousands of years, what thoughts and ideas will be important to him?  How will he view existence?  What is his opinion on the nature of the galaxy? 

If indoctrination theory as the community has described it is "true" then all those questions are taken from me.  All that is fun for me to speculate about becomes a moot point because it's apparently not even real.  I don't like thinking about IT in that regard, that it's "the truth" or something.  Rather i like to view IT as being a deliberate alternative way to interpret the story but that it's not meant to be proved one way or the other.  It's specifically designed to implement the possibility that the entire thing has been a mind trip on us.  It is one of the many reasons i think the ending is truly genius.  I'm extremely interested in seeing what Extended Cut shows us.  My ideal extended cut would deliver on all fronts and just as ingeniusly as the original product does.  It would ominously slip some things in that appear to lend more credence to IT, while at the same time satisfying the necessity for clarification of the events on the surface.

Modifié par pistolols, 13 mai 2012 - 03:19 .

[TSA_383]

CavScout wrote...

estebanus wrote...

CavScout wrote...
You do not have evidence backing up your claims. Like Birthers and Truthers you claim to have evidence or spout "explain this or it must be IT!".

Ok, if you say we don't have any evidence, you must either be a troll, or you haven't even taken a look at what we've gathered.

If anything, you and a lot of other people act like those you just described. You say: "We all have a lot of evidence disproving the IT!" But you never show it. Ultimately, it culminates into saying "You're wrong because I said so", nothing more.

Collecting unrelated points and saying their connected in a giant conspiracy is not "evidence". And saying folks must agree or are troll is surprising self-serving.

PS: We don't need to "disprove" IT, its supporters must show evidence for it.

This is why I wish we had a thread to collect stuff we'd actually confirmed... maybe I'll set one up...
Trouble is, anyone who goes into the indoc thread sees a lot of speculation, >80% of the stuff discussed in there gets rejected as either being pure speculation or not relevant to the topic at hand.
I wish people would, for example, stop going over the crap with the tree reflections, but there are a lot of diamonds amongst the piles of crap. Problem is at the moment you have to read maybe 200+ pages to get the full picture of what's been found so far...

[Sajuro]

Also from character perspective, KOTOR was made possible by a handy case of Indoctrination/mind****ing

[balance5050]

Sajuro wrote...

Also from character perspective, KOTOR was made possible by a handy case of Indoctrination/mind****ing

Such a good mindf***, what company was that? Oh yeah, BIOWARE.

[Sajuro]

balance5050 wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Also from character perspective, KOTOR was made possible by a handy case of Indoctrination/mind****ing

Such a good mindf***, what company was that? Oh yeah, BIOWARE.

Jade Empire was also about indoctrination, Master Li raised you to believe him and trust him completely, to be his weapon no matter what anyone else said. He only failed because of a literal Deus Ex Machina.
Every Bioware game I played was about mind****ing, mein got!

[Zombie Chow]

Hi guys, OP here.  I started the thread 1 month ago, shortly before the Extended Cut DLC announcement.

It was right before the 1-month anniversary and PAX event.  Some predictions were right, others were wrong:

RIGHT - within a day or so of my post, Bioware announced the Extended Cut DLC, related to the ending

WRONG - the announcement seems to distance itself from the IT IMHO, focusing on epilogues

Decisions.  Mistakes.  I was making a point about Bioware's use of Unreliable Narration in previous games.  We gave that trope a name in these forums "the Indoctrination Theory".  Anytime this gets mentioned, you get a lot of discussion.  However, that hallucination idea exists beyond that debate and, indeed, beyond just ME3.

[estebanus]

CavScout wrote...

estebanus wrote...

CavScout wrote...
You do not have evidence backing up your claims. Like Birthers and Truthers you claim to have evidence or spout "explain this or it must be IT!".

Ok, if you say we don't have any evidence, you must either be a troll, or you haven't even taken a look at what we've gathered.

If anything, you and a lot of other people act like those you just described. You say: "We all have a lot of evidence disproving the IT!" But you never show it. Ultimately, it culminates into saying "You're wrong because I said so", nothing more.

Collecting unrelated points and saying their connected in a giant conspiracy is not "evidence". And saying folks must agree or are troll is surprising self-serving.

PS: We don't need to "disprove" IT, its supporters must show evidence for it.

We have a lot of evidence for it, but apparently, you don't see it as evidence. You see it as bad writing. That is all.

Oh, you say that you don't need to disprove IT, but that we must show evidence for it? Well, I might as well just say: We don't need to prove anything to you, how about you disprove us for once.

Saying we're wrong because we're wrong is totally ignorant. How are we supposed to prove anything if you see our evidence as not being evidence?

I'm not saying you're a troll because you don't agree with us. I'm saying that you must be one if you see all our collected evidence as not being evidence. If you don't see our evidence as evidence, then this discussion is utterly pointless.

Goodbye.

[estebanus]

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote..
You're false is thinking all opinions have equal validity....

But you never say your opinion on what the endings mean, so you have zero validity.

What kind of nonesens do you ascribe to?

Your own logic.

[Deltakarma]

mind=blown, thank you for this little tidbit of info

Modifié par Deltakarma, 14 mai 2012 - 03:48 .

[paxxton]

I don't know what this thread is about but anyway.

BUMP

Modifié par paxxton, 12 juin 2012 - 05:33 .

[Makrys]

Bioware's too lazy! Wait... they've done this before? Oh... I guess I'll shut up next time before I have all the facts.

[SubAstris]

The problem is that many people who think that this is the "key" to explaining the ending of ME3 probably haven't played the game it compares to in this regard. Without actually playing the game, I would be very wary to say, "they did this before!"

Modifié par SubAstris, 12 juin 2012 - 05:39 .

[Makrys]

SubAstris wrote...

The problem is that many people who think that this is the "key" to explaining the ending of ME3 probably haven't played the game it compares to in this regard. Without actually playing the game, I would be very wary to say, "they did this before!"

Actually, the ones who are explaining its been done before are the ones who have SEEN it done before. Played the games. If you haven't played their past games, then do it. Both NWN, Jade Empire, and KOTOR all involve huge twists towards the end of the game. Walters and Hudson were also a big influence on all those games. So, the history is definitely there.

[SubAstris]

Makrys wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

The problem is that many people who think that this is the "key" to explaining the ending of ME3 probably haven't played the game it compares to in this regard. Without actually playing the game, I would be very wary to say, "they did this before!"

Actually, the ones who are explaining its been done before are the ones who have SEEN it done before. Played the games. If you haven't played their past games, then do it. Both NWN, Jade Empire, and KOTOR all involve huge twists towards the end of the game. Walters and Hudson were also a big influence on all those games. So, the history is definitely there.

I realise, I'm just warning people not to take it as immediate evidence if they haven't played the games before.

Out of interest, have you played the game in question?

[MegaSovereign]

It's frustrating to see so many of my fellow Mass Effect fans set themselves up for disappointment.

I'm not even going to have a "I told you so" attitude when the EC releases and has nothing to do with Indoctrination. I'm just going to feel really bad for those that spent so much effort trying to believe in IT.

[HellishFiend]

MegaSovereign wrote...

It's frustrating to see so many of my fellow Mass Effect fans set themselves up for disappointment.

I'm not even going to have a "I told you so" attitude when the EC releases and has nothing to do with Indoctrination. I'm just going to feel really bad for those that spent so much effort trying to believe in IT.

In my mind, most of the non-IT crowd are wasting their "effort" feeling pissed off and disappointed, while folks like me and Makrys are actually enjoying ourselves over in the IT topic by speculating. 

Aside from that, you're just using circular reasoning by saying the IT crowd is set up for disappointment on the grounds that you believe you are correct. 

That's all I have to say on the matter, so if you have something else to say about it, dont expect a response from me. I'm gonna go back to enjoying my speculations in the IT thread. 

Modifié par HellishFiend, 12 juin 2012 - 05:58 .

[jijeebo]

"Bioware aren't lazy! Look at how they've done the exact same twist in the past!"


Cereally, informing people that the IT is just a rehash of a twist Bioware have already used in the past doesn't make it more appealing...

[Makrys]

jijeebo wrote...

"Bioware aren't lazy! Look at how they've done the exact same twist in the past!"


Cereally, informing people that the IT is just a rehash of a twist Bioware have already used in the past doesn't make it more appealing...

Its not about making it more 'appealing'; many people like the IT, some don't. Its making a point that since Bioware loves twists, the IT is entirely possible. Likely, even. Especially given what they said pre-release about ME3 having some 'big twist'. Almost all Bioware games have had a big twist, especially the ones that Walters and Hudson have worked on. So, it is quite possible, and perhaps even probable. 

Modifié par Makrys, 12 juin 2012 - 06:32 .

[Rafficus III]

TC, thanks for the amazing observation. I believe too many people would have been too embittered about the ending to remember that or even look into Bioware's story past. Either way, good catch. Like I've said before, if this holds true can you fathom the amount of butt hurt that will circulate the forums from the posters who claimed Bioware was "dumbed down," only to be outsmarted in a grand scale. Talk about the total priiiize, but in the same instance Indoctrination Theorists would be seen as desperate fans who were taken advantage of if Bioware doesn't capitalize on this or if this wasn't their official plans that they kept closely to their chest. Either way, it's about to get interesting soon.

[Massa FX]

The catalyst has resided on the citadel since it's inception. Every cycle discovers the citadel and thus every cycle becomes indoctrinated through the citadel and the mass relays (made by Reaper's). Subtle, steady and slow the catalyst manipulates every cycle. It watches each race advance. It influences civilization leaders. This is why the council resisted Shepard's "The Reaper's are the real threat" speeches. They are under the influence of the catalyst.

The Reapers assumed control and never really left because their technology remained. Use the tech, sell your soul. In ME3 the only way to save organics is to destroy the Reapers and all Reaper technology. Otherwise you won't ever be sure something else is making subtle suggestions in your head.

The Relays (made by Reapers), Geth (upgraded with Reaper technology), the Citadel (the Catalyst) and EDI (made with Reaper technology) all must perish along with the Reapers to save organics. The result is that civilizations must revert back to where they'd be without Reaper influence, becoming somewhat primitive. Starting over without help from Reapers and without the influence of the Catalyst.

I don't like the Adam/Eve planet suggestion, but it does make sense under the full IT theory.

And yes, I believe the catalyst is insane. Shepard's always had trouble with AI's because self aware AI's go bonkers. Sorry EDI fans, but when you think about it EDI is scary and ambitious. Helpful, but I don't trust her.

Modifié par Massa FX, 12 juin 2012 - 07:17 .

[Mcfly616]

estebanus wrote...

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CavScout wrote..
You're false is thinking all opinions have equal validity....

But you never say your opinion on what the endings mean, so you have zero validity.

What kind of nonesens do you ascribe to?

Your own logic.

I just lol'd so hard......


Yes, let's ascribe to his logic.....

How does your own medicine taste CavScout?

[draken-heart]

again with IT, is it so hard to believe that it is all in Shepard's head but not Indoctrination?