300 réponses à ce sujet

[gmboy902]

Never played NWN, but if it's anything like the Sloth sequence in DA:O it isn't comparable. In Origins, and from what I hear in NWN, it is painfully obvious you are being deceived.

With Mass Effect 3, they have to grope at hints and clues to get it. At the very least, BioWare could have made the "special ending" more obvious - Shepard wakes up, finds himself among his fallen unit outside the Citadel being, there's a crescendo in the music and it cuts to black. That would have had both the "WOAH" of indoctrination and at least the conclusiveness of "there's something else".

Secondly, none of those two games introduced so many plot elements (TIM confrontation, starboy, etc.) as Mass Effect 3.

[Qutayba]

Still trying to believe, but also tiring of being strung along. They really need to resolve this at PAX. The hole is so deep right now that even if they reveal the "real ending" it will only get them halfway back up. A lot of the damage is done and irreversible.

[Skull Bearer]

I really, really want to believe in IT, but... Hanlon's Razor.

http://en.wikipedia..../Hanlon's_razor

[Blackmind1]

Caz Tirin wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Hraedonius wrote...

"Lazy writing" is an explanation that is much more plausible than "an elaborate set of clues that merely appears to be lazy writing." Even granting the premise, one still has to explain the point of the Stargazer ending followed by the appeal to "expand the legend" through DLC: is that also part of the cunning plot to release an unfinished game?

If it was a case of lazy writing...The game would end in the scene with Anderson and Shepard.
Also, the clues were built up during the last 3 games....
Read this to understand...
http://social.biowar...ndex/10946125/1 

There's also plenty of other articles and essays pointing out the flaws of the Indoctrination THEORY.  For some reason, the majority of the IT crowd no longer consider IT to be theory, bt rather cold, indisputable fact.  Even though the entire concept has theory in the name.

Also, there's plenty of things that point away from IT as pointed out in many articles and essays.  Funny how the IT sheep refuse to even acknowledge those, or worse say they're wrong when the article or essay is pointing to literary techniques and models that have been used for centuries.

Speaking of literary techniques and models...  lazy writing doesn't just mean they stopped writing at some point.  It refers to the quality going to crap.  Which it did.  Which is why people needed a real ending.  Which is how IT formed because people refused to accept that anyone would crap all over a franchise like that.  Funny how the IT crowd refuses to acknowledge that little gem.

This doesn't apply to me, as I came to the conclusion as the credits started rolling, 3 days after release, with no internet time. I re-read all the media and played the first two games before hand, so all the source material was still fresh in my mind, as I'm sure Bioware expected for everybody else that could be considered a "true" fan. Most of the "true" fans on this board haven't even read a comic, which makes me laugh.

In fact, it wasn't even just me. Me and the partner, who isn't a heavy fan, but enjoyed the books and comics, both pretty much said at the same time that he's obviously being indoctrinated, and we expected an expansion to properly finish off our story, ala DA: A and BGII.

How do you explain that one, exactly? Because I had no internet time due to spoilers. I only found out that others had come to my conclusion 2 days after game completion, when I started seeing videos popping up.

I've always taken a "wait until PAX" stance, the ending just has everything stated in the OP written all over it. NWN was the big tip off for me, with it being my favourite Bioware game since release.

EDIT: Nobody? Didn't think so...

Modifié par Blackmind1, 04 avril 2012 - 10:10 .

[zsom]

Bioware is losing a ton of money because of the rage over the endings.. people are returning their copies and most retailers have cut their prices by more than 50%.
No DLC would make up for these losses, so honestly I don't think there is even the smallest chance of this is being done on purpose.

Actually I'm half convinced they will cancel most of the planned DLCs instead.

[Kelwing]

This is why I believe the current endings are good only IF there is more to it than we have seen. For me the entire end is pure renegade choices with destroy as icing on the top.Then waiting for Alliance forces to yank my ass out of the rubble.

Modifié par Kelwing, 04 avril 2012 - 09:44 .

[Davester-oni]

I'm honestly as hopeful as most of the people here in the IT. Remembering the stuff from DA is a big help too, I completely forgot about their use of the Fade and temptations in both games, very nice twist on how Bioware spins their games. I think the only issue if IT proves true (I really hope it does.) is that they tried TOO hard to make an IT ending, and not enough fans are willing to accept it or Hold the Line. A lot probably never played past Bioware titles and don't recognize what might be happening. I'm pulling for the guys in Bioware, but this is entirely their mess to clean up, intentional or not. Good luck guys.

[im commander shep]

Something has just occured to me,

Bioware has kept saying the ending won't change and that the DLC will just expand on it. But the key with IT is that it's not the end we have seen. We have only seen the beginning of the end so IT could be completely true along with everything bioware is currently saying.

Another thought..

What if some pay DLC is released before the extended cut and this does build on the ending being confirm IT etc, and then the extended cut finishes on from here. Either way something about the end and the way bioware are handling it still does not add up.

[TSA_383]

I think it's about time I did some thread Reaping (geddit?) since I'm sick of people saying things like "Bioware aren't smart enough to come up with something like that". Apparently the irony of such statements coming from someone who accepts wholly circular reasoning as perfectly acceptable is lost on them.

Anyway. Epic threadbumb for justice!

[vixvicco]

Wait for DLC.

[Deputy Secretary of Awesome]

Thanks for the post, OP, that neverwinter nights example is interesting.

I do remember the DA: Origins scene, that was great. I think the key difference there was that in the Origins scene, you the player realise the scenario presented is an illusion, and always easily guide your Warden to break out of it.

What's brilliant about the Mass Effect 3 deception is that we the players are "indoctrinated" too, even though in retrospect there are so many clues that it seems obvious in hindsight. All those logic errors and character incoherence (not behaving or presented the way we know them to be) and narrative flaws are all signals to us that something is wrong.

And it's fascinating that we the fans (myself included) reacted first emotionally and instinctually with bewilderment and rage, because the endings just "felt" wrong in so many ways. And then when you thought about them and discussed them, all the rational problems with them emerged, and eventually led to the IT, and then all those "flaws" inverse to become "signals" to us to question what we are being presented with, and to think critically about why we are being presented with such things.

It was a surreal and frankly awesome experience to be mind tripped like that.

[hoodaticus]

Zombie Chow wrote...

Like many of you, I did not find the current ending of Mass Effect 3 entirely satisfactory.  You likely know what I mean and you feel as I do, so I won't get into that.

I've been looking at the Indoctrination Theory thread and the video at , where the ending is basically a hallucination the Reapers created in Shepard's mind to fool him into just giving up.  The train of thought and supporting evidence makes a lot of sense to me, at least more than taking the ending at face value.

What struck me was that Bioware has already done something like this, but almost a decade ago.  It was in the game Neverwinter Nights, in an expansion called Hordes of the Underdark.

It was a Dungeons & Dragons fantasy RPG, where at one point you confront an advanced civilisation of psychic Mind Flayers, ruled by a giant Elder Brain.  You can choose to negotiate with it, but if you try to attack, it psychically creates an illusion that makes you think you've won the war, ended up in a small idyllic forest, with a charming hostess inviting you to a celebration (to my recollection, it's been years since I played this).  If you accept, the credits roll exactly as if you completed the game.

The preferred solution against the Elder Brain, of course, was to use your character's Wisdom score or just common sense to break out of the psychic deception and fight back.

Edit - Below, fellow player Ellychid32 pointed out something even I missed.  Bioware also used this mind trick idea in Dragon Age: Origins (during a sequence where you enter the world of dreams).  Again an enemy mentally constructs a perfect scenario where your mentor congratulates you on your victory and the only way out is to attack him.  This trope just seems to be something that Bioware likes to use, 10 years ago, 3 years ago, and IMHO now.

Now back to ME3.  I just found the secret ending to keep Shepard alive.  More importantly, it only applies if you choose to destroy all synths, both Reaper and Geth according to the God Child.  I didn't choose that before as that seems too Renegade for my previous Shepard alts, but now I know that exists, it maps closely to the situation in Hordes of the Underdark.  The "correct answer" is not to make peace, not to control, not to even try to be a Paragon, but just fight back to resist the illusion.

I believe the pieces of evidence in the Indoctrination Theory are intentional clues left by Bioware.  The current endings are a deliberate and very convincing mind trick not just on Shepard, but on us as players so that we're really immersed.  We totally fell for it, so well done, Bioware!  Bioware wants the fans to figure it out before they release a DLC that builds on this. Well, clearly you did figure it out, with your beautiful explanations, and soon the DLC with the true ending is coming.

I just wanted to share this information to those that never played the Neverwinter Nights series (as they're quite old), seeing that this is a sort of mind trick Bioware used before, to show that hope is on the way.

This.  Bioware has a fetish for forcing their players to reject the presented reality in a game.

[matt-bassist]

so basically BioWare freakin indoctrinated us all!

[Zix13]

Zombie Chow wrote...

Like many of you, I did not find the current ending of Mass Effect 3 entirely satisfactory.  You likely know what I mean and you feel as I do, so I won't get into that.

I've been looking at the Indoctrination Theory thread and the video at , where the ending is basically a hallucination the Reapers created in Shepard's mind to fool him into just giving up.  The train of thought and supporting evidence makes a lot of sense to me, at least more than taking the ending at face value.

What struck me was that Bioware has already done something like this, but almost a decade ago.  It was in the game Neverwinter Nights, in an expansion called Hordes of the Underdark.

It was a Dungeons & Dragons fantasy RPG, where at one point you confront an advanced civilisation of psychic Mind Flayers, ruled by a giant Elder Brain.  You can choose to negotiate with it, but if you try to attack, it psychically creates an illusion that makes you think you've won the war, ended up in a small idyllic forest, with a charming hostess inviting you to a celebration (to my recollection, it's been years since I played this).  If you accept, the credits roll exactly as if you completed the game.

The preferred solution against the Elder Brain, of course, was to use your character's Wisdom score or just common sense to break out of the psychic deception and fight back.

Now back to ME3.  I just found the secret ending to keep Shepard alive.  More importantly, it only applies if you choose to destroy all synths, both Reaper and Geth according to the God Child.  I didn't choose that before as that seems too Renegade for my previous Shepard alts, but now I know that exists, it maps closely to the situation in Hordes of the Underdark.  The "correct answer" is not to make peace, not to control, not to even try to be a Paragon, but just fight back to resist the illusion.

I believe the pieces of evidence in the Indoctrination Theory are intentional clues left by Bioware.  The current endings are a deliberate and very convincing mind trick not just on Shepard, but on us as players so that we're really immersed.  We totally fell for it, so well done, Bioware!  Bioware wants the fans to figure it out before they release a DLC that builds on this. Well, clearly you did figure it out, with your beautiful explanations, and soon the DLC with the true ending is coming.

I just wanted to share this information to those that never played the Neverwinter Nights series (as they're quite old), seeing that this is a sort of mind trick Bioware used before, to show that hope is on the way.

HotU was an excellent expansion. However, I don't think it's comparable. You know you're trippin at that point. ME3 is more subtle. 

Modifié par Zix13, 12 mai 2012 - 05:31 .

[Blue Liara]

WAKE UP SHEPARD!! Click on my signature to watch new Documentary on IT....convinced me very good.

[Ytook]

I hope beyond hope you ate correct.

[Dendio1]

The devs originally planned to have shepard clearly indoctrinated. The plan was scrapped because the mechanics were too difficult to pull off. The arrival dlc hints at this development. And the final hours app confirms it.

Even though they could not get the indoctrination to work, the elements of it are shown throughout the game. However its not as obvious because the logical climax was scrapped. There is no event where the game clearly reveals shepard being indoctrinated. As a result some speculate shepard's weird dreams are the result of built up stress, but I believe they were part of the original indoctrination plan. It makes more sense to devote those resources towards a big IT reveal than to make those scenes just because war is hell.

Star kid speaks oddly and motivates shepard towards control and synthesis. Starkid makes destroy out to be a bad choice. I believe these are relics of the original indoctrination plans. The whole final scene is so jarring because there is no build up to the kid appearing outside of the dream world. If the indoc plan was carried out it would be a little more expected.

Bottom line though, even without indoctrination we have enough evidence that destroy is the right choice and control/ synthesis is a red herring.

Control:
You will die. You will control us, but you will lose everything you have.

Hidden message= you will gain control, but you will lose it along with everything you have.
Net effect= disintegration and no control

Synthesis
And there will be peace?
The cycle will end, synthesis is the final evolution of life ( reapers are the final evolution of life and organic/synthetic)

Net effect= everyone is reaper like
Peace not guaranteed or even mentioned by star kid.

So, as you see, even without indoctrinations the choices still follow the same dynamic.

Modifié par Dendio1, 12 mai 2012 - 05:57 .

[balance5050]

Ytook wrote...

I hope beyond hope you ate correct.

I ate pizza!

[Bill Casey]

HellishFiend wrote...

That doesnt mean I dont like the way Mass Effect does it better, but the point is that the plot and the ending (if IT turns out to be true) are simply new takes on stories that have been done before.

EVERYTHING is simply a new take on stories that have been done before...

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TropesAreTools

[FataliTensei]

I really hope indoc is true, if it is then it's genius. If Indoc is true then the ending actually REVERSES it's stance and helps lift up alot of the weaker writing during the main game. However I'm still skeptical, while it makes more sense and is thematically, technically and artistically superior, based on Bioware's responses to the issue I find it difficult to believe.

[Bill Casey]

FataliTensei wrote...

based on Bioware's responses to the issue I find it difficult to believe.

If IT is true, then in that case Bioware did their job...
With some notable exceptions early on...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 12 mai 2012 - 06:53 .

[hammerfan]

Zombie Chow wrote...


It was a Dungeons & Dragons fantasy RPG, where at one point you confront an advanced civilisation of psychic Mind Flayers, ruled by a giant Elder Brain.  You can choose to negotiate with it, but if you try to attack, it psychically creates an illusion that makes you think you've won the war, ended up in a small idyllic forest, with a charming hostess inviting you to a celebration (to my recollection, it's been years since I played this).  If you accept, the credits roll exactly as if you completed the game.

Not quite, if you accept you get a "game over you are now a mindflayer thrall." message.

[balance5050]

hammerfan wrote...

Zombie Chow wrote...


It was a Dungeons & Dragons fantasy RPG, where at one point you confront an advanced civilisation of psychic Mind Flayers, ruled by a giant Elder Brain.  You can choose to negotiate with it, but if you try to attack, it psychically creates an illusion that makes you think you've won the war, ended up in a small idyllic forest, with a charming hostess inviting you to a celebration (to my recollection, it's been years since I played this).  If you accept, the credits roll exactly as if you completed the game.

Not quite, if you accept you get a "game over you are now a mindflayer thrall." message.

If you attack the Elder Brain, it will suddenly trap you inside an illusion where you are waking up from a dream. If you accept it, you get the non-standard game over, that you mentioned.

[CavScout]

balance5050 wrote...

hammerfan wrote...

Zombie Chow wrote...


It was a Dungeons & Dragons fantasy RPG, where at one point you confront an advanced civilisation of psychic Mind Flayers, ruled by a giant Elder Brain.  You can choose to negotiate with it, but if you try to attack, it psychically creates an illusion that makes you think you've won the war, ended up in a small idyllic forest, with a charming hostess inviting you to a celebration (to my recollection, it's been years since I played this).  If you accept, the credits roll exactly as if you completed the game.

Not quite, if you accept you get a "game over you are now a mindflayer thrall." message.

If you attack the Elder Brain, it will suddenly trap you inside an illusion where you are waking up from a dream. If you accept it, you get the non-standard game over, that you mentioned.

ME3 doesn't have this and is pretty big clue that it's not using the same technique.

[balance5050]

CavScout wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

hammerfan wrote...

Zombie Chow wrote...


It was a Dungeons & Dragons fantasy RPG, where at one point you confront an advanced civilisation of psychic Mind Flayers, ruled by a giant Elder Brain.  You can choose to negotiate with it, but if you try to attack, it psychically creates an illusion that makes you think you've won the war, ended up in a small idyllic forest, with a charming hostess inviting you to a celebration (to my recollection, it's been years since I played this).  If you accept, the credits roll exactly as if you completed the game.

Not quite, if you accept you get a "game over you are now a mindflayer thrall." message.

If you attack the Elder Brain, it will suddenly trap you inside an illusion where you are waking up from a dream. If you accept it, you get the non-standard game over, that you mentioned.

ME3 doesn't have this and is pretty big clue that it's not using the same technique.

That's why the EC is coming out.