405 réponses à ce sujet

[Craven1138]

If they show us middle finger once again during PAX, then it would be great to hit them with this.

Lies are undeniable and it seems money is only thing they understand.

[Icinix]

nikki191 wrote...

normally i would dismiss this sort of thing, normally i would say get over yourselves, but with the way i feel about bioware GO FOR IT

Aye.

I stand up for this because its time gaming started being treated like any other consumer product and was subject to the same laws and the same scrutiny.

Its a huge, massive, mammoth industry, yet it is handled with kid gloves and any issues dismissed with "Its just a game."

Its not just a game, its a billion dollar industry that is becoming excessively greedy, corrupt and false. It needs to be answerable the same way any other industry is answerable. Reviews need to be trustworthy, marketing needs to be truthful.

If companies can get away with the stuff the gaming gets away with, we're all going to be screwed over royally and no-one will ever be able to get a handle on this.

[Silveralen]

I really dislike people acting like this is completely un-merited. You think this is silly/stupid? Ok, explain why. They mad untrue statements about a game after its completion to magazines, te interviews themselves a form of advertising. Which part do you disagree with?

Of course, since EA is already shelling out refunds a suit would accomplish nothing at this point, but the theory behind it is sound. EA just got ahead of it, offering refunds and heading off the potential for any bad PR.

Modifié par Silveralen, 04 avril 2012 - 01:47 .

[Sesshaku]

Icinix wrote...

nikki191 wrote...

normally i would dismiss this sort of thing, normally i would say get over yourselves, but with the way i feel about bioware GO FOR IT

Aye.

I stand up for this because its time gaming started being treated like any other consumer product and was subject to the same laws and the same scrutiny.

Its a huge, massive, mammoth industry, yet it is handled with kid gloves and any issues dismissed with "Its just a game."

Its not just a game, its a billion dollar industry that is becoming excessively greedy, corrupt and false. It needs to be answerable the same way any other industry is answerable. Reviews need to be trustworthy, marketing needs to be truthful.

If companies can get away with the stuff the gaming gets away with, we're all going to be screwed over royally and no-one will ever be able to get a handle on this.

[Stalker]

Even though FTC might sound too big for some, the evidence is clearly there!

Many statements may have gotten in wrong interpretation, but some are clearly false advertising.

[Lietuvis]

I agree, we will see how it turns out to be in few days,

[ZombieJohn84]

While we're at it, let's sue Paramount too because Jason never really "takes" Manhattan in "Friday the 13th Part VIII: Jason Takes Manhattan."

It was really Vancouver and it was only for about fifteen minutes.

[Kitedtk]

The false advertising complaint has a great deal of merit. Just because the product sold happens to be digital media/ a game does not mean they can come out on dozens of interviews and lie to get good previews and guarantee good sales. If they advertise a certain product then that is what they are legally bound to deliver to their clients.

Not from the US but seriously hoping this is what you do. if all we get is some crappy "clarification" bull about how the majority of the fans just didn't get the ending, and yes ENDING... there is only one... a colour palette swap and one short clip of someone taking a rasping breath is not a wildly varied and diverse ending...

[Judah Ben Hur]

Da Don Giovanni wrote...

***Note: What is the #1 rule of Business? Customer Satisfaction.

***I agree that no legal action should be taken until after BioWare's "April Announcement" which may or may not take place at PAX. That being said, if BioWare's "April Announcement" is the Retake Omega DLC and NO MENTION of "Fixing" the "On Disc" ending to Mass Effect 3, that will be the time when Mass Effect fans need to get serious. The only problem I forsee is the money it would take to hire lawyers of our own to fight EA's lawyers. We have a case, a real one, but getting it in front of the Judge is a challenge, once that's done, the Judge would say in the Turian Councilor's voice from ME1 when being presented with Saren's audio tape, "This evidence is irrefutable"


First of all, I've supported BioWare for many years (DA:O/SWTOR/ME1&2/SWKoTOR), but clearly with the Game Informer magazine issue 217, May 2011 and all that was stated in it, the literally Color Coded, A, B, C endings in the game files and the complete 180 from what we were told and what was promised (many statements that I won't take the time to post here), the Federal Trade Commission should at the VERY LEAST, know (from the tens of thousands of us) that BioWare used False Advertising to sell a product.

To be realistic, getting a case like this in front of an FTC judge is hard, but NOT impossible. Even if it was impossible, it SHOULD NOT STOP US from letting BioWare/EA know that they crossed the line. That being said I'd be willing to represent the Fans of Mass Effect in front of a Federal Judge assuming that BioWare/EA never reveals plans to fix the on disc ending

Here, (a small portion) of my evidence:

http://en.wikipedia....lse_advertising

http://social.biowar...ndex/10927975/1

http://i41.tinypic.com/2edp2xc.png



All the news articles, forum posts, all the Fan's of Mass Effect and their opinion.

*Note: This thread was written in about 5 minutes, it does not reflect the case file I would bring to court, not by long shot, it does however state the thesis and topic of the court case that could be held.

**Note: Should Stanley Woo or Chris dismiss this as "not ME3 related" and lock this thread. You would be furthering my evidence that A) you don't care about the fans, you care about your bank statement and you have abandoned the #1 rule of Business: Customer Satisfaction.


Agreed?

No.

At first when I saw this thread, I thought, "oh, neat. Maybe there's someone else on here who has a legal education." Then you cited to Wikipedia.

Did Bioware advertise exclusively about the endings? No. As a matter of fact, that isn't the bulk of what they advertised for.

Have Bioware, and associated retailers been providing full refunds for those who are dissatisfied with the endings? Yes.

Are the endings diverse? That is a matter of subjective opinion. No court in this land would find or you.

The kind of defect being protested isn't even a design defect. It's the kind of thing possibly covered under warranty.

Let's take a minute and invoke some real legal language here. See clauses 8 and 9 of the Electronic Arts EULA. No, it isn't material that you didn't actually read it before you accepted it (and trust me, you've accepted it).

Here's clause 8:

EXCEPT FOR THE LIMITED WARRANTY ON RECORDING
MEDIA, AND TO THE FULLEST EXTENT PERMISSIBLE UNDER APPLICABLE LAW, THE
SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED TO YOU “AS IS,” WITH ALL FAULTS, WITHOUT WARRANTY OF
ANY KIND, AND YOUR USE IS AT YOUR SOLE RISK. THE ENTIRE RISK OF SATISFACTORY
QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE RESIDES WITH YOU. EA AND EA’S LICENSORS
(COLLECTIVELY EA FOR PURPOSES OF THIS SECTION AND SECTION 6) DO NOT MAKE,
AND HEREBY DISCLAIM, ANY AND ALL EXPRESS, IMPLIED OR STATUTORY
WARRANTIES, INCLUDING IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, SATISFACTORY QUALITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, NONINFRINGEMENT
OF THIRD PARTY RIGHTS, AND WARRANTIES (IF ANY) ARISING FROM A COURSE OF
DEALING, USAGE, OR TRADE PRACTICE.

So, how about we stop invoking legal rights from Wikipedia? Furthermore, why don't we take constructive, instead of ignorant action to get this problem sorted?

Modifié par Judah Ben Hur, 04 avril 2012 - 02:03 .

[withneelandi]

Jere85 wrote...

1 lawyer vs EA... Good luck.
I agree with what you said though, but you cant win this through legal means.

Quite apart from the fact that the FTC seems to have no power to do anything like fine EA, they could only make them withdraw the advert (in this case we seem to be talking about interviews and, yes they seem to count as adverts, but it's not going to hurt EA except in PR terms), so even if you did have a case (and I don't think you do) the whole case would be an exercise in futility, you might as well just burn a big pile of money.

Also, let me illustrate what would happen if you did somehow rub together enough cash to hire an lawyer via the Simpsons.....

Here is EA's legal team:



Here is your legal team:

[Judah Ben Hur]

withneelandi wrote...

Jere85 wrote...

1 lawyer vs EA... Good luck.
I agree with what you said though, but you cant win this through legal means.

Quite apart from the fact that the FTC seems to have no power to do anything like fine EA, they could only make them withdraw the advert (in this case we seem to be talking about interviews and, yes they seem to count as adverts, but it's not going to hurt EA except in PR terms), so even if you did have a case (and I don't think you do) the whole case would be an exercise in futility, you might as well just burn a big pile of money.

Also, let me illustrate what would happen if you did somehow rub together enough cash to hire an lawyer via the Simpsons.....

Here is EA's legal team:



Here is your legal team:

The EULA also requires that all suits be brought under California law, in either a California state or federal jurisdiction. For anybody who didn't read that in the EULA when you accepted it - too bad. The FTC won't touch this.

[Keldaurz]

It's funny when people point EULA, when most clause on those "contracts" can be dismissed illegal with ease on court. That one is clearly one of them and has nothing to do with false advertisiment (even if you thought you were a smartass while "finding" it).

I am up for everything and everyone who start to think of games as real products, but like many other things, our society lacks meanings to evolve on those kind of matter.

[Kilshrek]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Bring EA to court for the murder of BioWare....and a few other companies.

Bullfrog and Westwood!

Dungeon Keeper and C&C used to be my favouritest games!

But.. really.. I don't know what to make of all this. On the one hand I do feel blatantly lied to, especially about the ending, and I dislike the condescending tone Bioware has taken throughout, regarding those who dislike the ending, especially Dr Muzyka's "statement", which neatly sidestepped the issue of more than a few fans, and pointed squarely at critical reception, not fan reception, as a measure of the game's success.  Fine by me, if critics bought the game, instead of receiving review copies.

And if 75 critics bought the game and loved it, then I suppose their opinion means more than the 50,000 plus fans who utterly disliked the ending, isn't it? Because the fans don't get their views published in the news.

While we're here though, I'd like to see how Bioware intends to address the issue before coming to any conclusions. Clarification just won't do for me.

[EricHVela]

Technically, there are 16 possible endings if you start with the teleport to the citadel.

They use reputation to decide if you can save Anderson. (2x)
EMS to decide what endings you can have. (8x -- EMS adjusted by final ME2 choice)

The fact that there are 3 colors of BIK files (with "good" and "bad" versions making only 6) doesn't change the fact that they are wrapped in real-time events which result in different kinds of endings.

That's just a technicality.

I still feel cheated. Lawyers might see it as 16 regardless.

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 04 avril 2012 - 02:24 .

[Dav3VsTh3World]

Congratulations OP

You alone have singlehandedly brought Mass Effect fans well and above the psychotic level of average Star Trek and Star Wars fans, if this story is anything to go by

http://socyberty.com...who-is-nuttier/

[Judah Ben Hur]

Keldaurz wrote...

It's funny when people point EULA, when most clause on those "contracts" can be dismissed illegal with ease on court. That one is clearly one of them and has nothing to do with false advertisiment (even if you thought you were a smartass while "finding" it).

I am up for everything and everyone who start to think of games as real products, but like many other things, our society lacks meanings to evolve on those kind of matter.

Every EULA that you have ever signed has one of these clauses. They are not "illegal."

[brian_breed]

How is this conversation still going?!

[warrior256]

I agree that we may have to start becoming more agressive in our protesting if/when we are ignored at PAX. Still though, a lawsuit seems to be a bit too much. Good luck if you choose to do it though!

[Keldaurz]

Judah Ben Hur wrote...

Keldaurz wrote...

It's funny when people point EULA, when most clause on those "contracts" can be dismissed illegal with ease on court. That one is clearly one of them and has nothing to do with false advertisiment (even if you thought you were a smartass while "finding" it).

I am up for everything and everyone who start to think of games as real products, but like many other things, our society lacks meanings to evolve on those kind of matter.

Every EULA that you have ever signed has one of these clauses. They are not "illegal."

Still, that doesn't make it legally worthy, because it has nothing to do with false adverisiment, but with people who just didn't enjoy the game. Many contracts you had signed in real life have clauses which are illegal and any court will  also dismiss them. I know, because well, i had a few times take my contracts to a trustworthy lawyer to value them, and to learn to present a case. Never ever take any clause like the holy bible if you don't really know about laws, period.

Oh, and even less EULA's, mostly because they aren't written for every country.

Modifié par Keldaurz, 04 avril 2012 - 02:36 .

[bluewolv1970]

Liber320 wrote...

Wait until their announcement at PAX. Give them a chance to adress the issues before you do anything drastic.

like they  "addressed" the face imprt issue or how they "addressed" the fact that there are not 4000 ems in SP - Yes Bioware just needs a chance:whistle:

[Judah Ben Hur]

A forum selection clause is absolutely standard fare in contract law, using boilerplate language. They're only flexible in that the federal forum can be changed, but not the state substantive law. Just because *some clauses* are found to be illegal doesn't mean you can conclude that all clauses can be illegal.

[Wikkr]

Judah Ben Hur wrote...
Did Bioware advertise exclusively about the endings? No. As a matter of fact, that isn't the bulk of what they advertised for.

Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.360magazi...ferent-endings/
“There are many different endings. We wouldn’t do it any other way. How
could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and
then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can’t
say any more than that…”

Nope theres 3 endings. thats not many

Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.gameinfor...PostPageIndex=2
Interviewer: [Regarding the numerous possible endings of Mass Effect 2] “Is that
same type of complexity built into the ending of Mass Effect 3?”
Hudson: “Yeah, and I’d say much more so, because we have the ability to
build the endings out in a way that we don’t have to worry about
eventually tying them back together somewhere. This story arc is
coming to an end with this game. That means the endings can be a lot
more different. At this point we’re taking into account so many
decisions that you’ve made as a player and reflecting a lot of that
stuff. It’s not even in any way like the traditional game endings,
where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got
ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and
variety in them.”

More like blue green red endings.

Casey Hudson (Director)
http://gamescatalyst...active-stories/
“The whole idea of Mass Effect3 is resolving all of the biggest questions, about the Protheons and
the Reapers, and being in the driver's seat to end the galaxy and all
of these big plot lines, to decide what civilizations are going to
live or die: All of these things are answered in Mass Effect 3.”

Not

there ye go just 3 seperate quotes i pulled out of me bag that write promises for the ending that the game did not deliver

[EricHVela]

ReggarBlane wrote...

Technically, there are 16 possible endings if you start with the teleport to the citadel.

They use reputation to decide if you can save Anderson. (2x)
EMS to decide what endings you can have. (8x -- EMS adjusted by final ME2 choice and several ME1+2 choices)

The fact that there are 3 colors of BIK files (with "good" and "bad" versions making only 6) doesn't change the fact that they are wrapped in real-time events which result in different kinds of endings.

That's just a technicality.

I still feel cheated. Lawyers might see it as 16 regardless.

Ahem.

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 04 avril 2012 - 02:48 .