282 réponses à ce sujet

[scootermcgaffin]

I am an eternal optimist.

I mean, I expect the homophobia, because, sadly, it's very prevalent amongst the gaming community, but I generally hope for actual discourse and debate about topics and not...boob gifs.

[thegreateski]

scootermcgaffin wrote...

I am an eternal optimist.
I mean, I expect the homophobia, because, sadly, it's very prevalent amongst the gaming community, but I generally hope for actual discourse and debate about topics and not...boob gifs.

All discussions between men will eventually devolve into "boobs"

I DARE anyone to prove me wrong.

[scootermcgaffin]

Anyway, since this is a new page, I will try to actually create a conversation that is both on-topic and not relating to boobs. Wish me luck!

First, you should all read this
Hopefully, that will explain why it is so important that a game as high profile as Dragon Age have same-sex options (it also should clarify why certain parts of The Pearl are fairly harmful, in terms of GLBT representation, but that's another thread and another argument)
If it doesn't help, or if you're confused, I'll explain: the media still portrays "heterosexual" as "the normal, correct way"
When you turn on the TV, you will see straight people.
When you read a book, you will read about straight people.
When you go to a movie, you will see a heterosexual romance (sub)plot.

Whether you want to admit it or not, GLBT people of all ages are playing this game; the fact that F/F and M/M options exist at all is a huge step forward, and, in fact, may help someone come to terms with themselves. It sounds ridiculous to you, I know. But that is because you're coming from the point of view of a straight person and, well, see above re: heteronormativity.

(for the record, this could basically go into the "Black Human Noble" thread only with "GLBT" replaced by "black" and "heteronormativity replaced with "white privilege" but that's neither here nor there)

[RunCDFirst]

scootermcgaffin wrote...

Anyway, since this is a new page, I will try to actually create a conversation that is both on-topic and not relating to boobs. Wish me luck!

First, you should all read this
Hopefully, that will explain why it is so important that a game as high profile as Dragon Age have same-sex options (it also should clarify why certain parts of The Pearl are fairly harmful, in terms of GLBT representation, but that's another thread and another argument)
If it doesn't help, or if you're confused, I'll explain: the media still portrays "heterosexual" as "the normal, correct way"
When you turn on the TV, you will see straight people.
When you read a book, you will read about straight people.
When you go to a movie, you will see a heterosexual romance (sub)plot.

Whether you want to admit it or not, GLBT people of all ages are playing this game; the fact that F/F and M/M options exist at all is a huge step forward, and, in fact, may help someone come to terms with themselves. It sounds ridiculous to you, I know. But that is because you're coming from the point of view of a straight person and, well, see above re: heteronormativity.

(for the record, this could basically go into the "Black Human Noble" thread only with "GLBT" replaced by "black" and "heteronormativity replaced with "white privilege" but that's neither here nor there)

I've always heard it as LGBT.

As an aside, the game doesn't *need* homosexual relationships. It doesn't *need* heterosexual relationships. It's nice, and a step forward that it does include them. But it's a tricky thing to expect a company to accomodate all the various problems face by individuals. We don't really need a disabled person in the game, do we?

And I'm curious about your discourse over The Pearl.

[thegreateski]

RunCDFirst wrote...
 We don't really need a disabled person in the game, do we?

Sandal.

[RunCDFirst]

thegreateski wrote...

RunCDFirst wrote...
 We don't really need a disabled person in the game, do we?

Sandal.

I stand correct. Carry on, everyone.

[scootermcgaffin]

GLBT and LGBT are generally interchangeable. Usually people just put whichever they are closer to first



As for the Pearl: The "Female" Companion you get when you select "both" can (pretty easily) be seen as a sort of "hyuck hycuk those weird transgender/transexual/intersexed people sure are strange and not really women"

Reading too much into it? Possibly, but considering how little representation the T part of GLBT gets, it's not really unreasonable to assume that it was put in, not out of maliciousness, just an attempt at humor that (for me and others) fell flat.



And of course the game doesn't need relationships. But, since relationships are in the game, it's nice to see both options available. And without having to be a complete ass to the opposite-sex options this time! (Jade Empire, I'm looking at you)

Of course, there are problems even within the same-sex representations we are given; primarily, that Zevran is a massive stereotype and that there are no truly homosexual characters in the game--only hetero and bisexuals.

[RunCDFirst]

scootermcgaffin wrote...

GLBT and LGBT are generally interchangeable. Usually people just put whichever they are closer to first

As for the Pearl: The "Female" Companion you get when you select "both" can (pretty easily) be seen as a sort of "hyuck hycuk those weird transgender/transexual/intersexed people sure are strange and not really women"
Reading too much into it? Possibly, but considering how little representation the T part of GLBT gets, it's not really unreasonable to assume that it was put in, not out of maliciousness, just an attempt at humor that (for me and others) fell flat.

Ah, the 'it's a trap!' option. Course, the character doesn't seem disturbed by it, and shouldn't exposure, even if it is humourous, be good? Sure, the player/developer may find it funny, but the game world treats it tastefully.

And of course the game doesn't need relationships. But, since relationships are in the game, it's nice to see both options available. And without having to be a complete ass to the opposite-sex options this time! (Jade Empire, I'm looking at you)

Yes, that was annoying.

Of course, there are problems even within the same-sex representations we are given; primarily, that Zevran is a massive stereotype and that there are no truly homosexual characters in the game--only hetero and bisexuals.

I'm not sure how much of a problem it is, seeing that all of the romances are flawed in some fashion. I guess you could argue that they could have had Zevran's flaw been something that wasn't so stereotypical but even with that, the character is more than just being a huge sleeze. And Leliana isn't as much a stereotype herself... despite being incredibly creepy.

[Dark83]

RunCDFirst wrote...

Do you have this study handy? I'm curious about the subject pool. Specifically the numbers for each test group.

There are many problems with testing sexuality in a laboratory setting. Too many to discuss here and all of which are unrelated to Jimmy Kimmel or Dragon Age.

Whenever I'm asked, I end up Googling for it to see if I find it again. So I'll give you a few minutes of Google time...

A write up on various stuff about it: http://www.futurepun...ves/001393.html
Other articles on the same write up:
http://www.innovatio...icht-19182.html
http://www.scienceda...30613075252.htm
http://www.eurekaler...u-ssd061203.php

Regarding self-proclaimed Bisexuals:
http://faculty.wcas....sponsetimes.htm
http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=188
http://www.sciencebl...m/cms/node/8759
Questioning the study:
http://www.medicalne...icles/29630.php
http://www.indegayfo...show/26696.html
http://www.dchunter....xualityPFV.html

[RunCDFirst]

Dark83 wrote...

RunCDFirst wrote...

Do you have this study handy? I'm curious about the subject pool. Specifically the numbers for each test group.

There are many problems with testing sexuality in a laboratory setting. Too many to discuss here and all of which are unrelated to Jimmy Kimmel or Dragon Age.

Whenever I'm asked, I end up Googling for it to see if I find it again. So I'll give you a few minutes of Google time...

A write up on various stuff about it: http://www.futurepun...ves/001393.html
Other articles on the same write up:
http://www.innovatio...icht-19182.html
http://www.scienceda...30613075252.htm
http://www.eurekaler...u-ssd061203.php

Regarding self-proclaimed Bisexuals:
http://faculty.wcas....sponsetimes.htm
http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=188
http://www.sciencebl...m/cms/node/8759
Questioning the study:
http://www.medicalne...icles/29630.php
http://www.indegayfo...show/26696.html
http://www.dchunter....xualityPFV.html

Thank you sir, you are a gentleman and a scholar.

Edit: While perusing A Sex Difference in the Specificity of Sexual Arousal, I noticed that the members of their first study were assessed on the Kinsey Sexual Fantasy Scale to determine sexual preference. Only those participants indicating exclusivity in their preferences, for both males and females, were used in the study.

This makes sense, since when studying whether women have a category-specific sexual arousal, you want to control for a possibility of attraction to both genders which would muddy the results. If you look at the results, you will notice that, amongst men, there are a few participants that still demonstrated some arousal for stimuli that did not match their preference. That is why some of the dots appear around 0. There also appears to be more variation in the 'straight' males than the 'homosexual' males, but that is likely due to the small sample size.

This is unsurprising, since you'll always have variation in results and the important information is the means of the sample size.

Unless you are making claims about certain orientations existing. Even in a study using exclusively 'heterosexual' and 'homosexual' participants, we are getting arousal patterns suggesting bisexuality. No scientist should really make an exclusive claim like 'bisexuality doesn't exist' since research can never really disprove something, and the data will always have some outliers that contradict that claim.

A more accurate explanation would be that males are more category specific in their attractions than females, but that makes far less interesting headlines.

(As for the previous study that examined sexual arousal amongst heterosexual, homosexual and bisexual males, I noticed that their methodology did not include heterosexual couples in the stimuli but strictly homosexual male and female couples. This poses some problems, not the least drawing a baseline arousal as this study (Sex Differences in Sexual Arousal) did. Their subject pool also proves problematic for drawing general conclusions. But this edit has gotten really rambly and really boring.)

Modifié par RunCDFirst, 04 décembre 2009 - 05:06 .

[MerinTB]

Crawling_Chaos wrote...

scootermcgaffin wrote...

I am an eternal optimist.
I mean, I expect the homophobia, because, sadly, it's very prevalent amongst the gaming community, but I generally hope for actual discourse and debate about topics and not...boob gifs.

How are boobs "degenerating" from a massive flow of ignorance and uneducated opinions?

Or, honestly, from a thread that is about Jimmy Kimmel, let alone Jimmy Kimmel mocking gay sex in a video game?

[Schyzm]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

The pearl has trannies for hire, I hear. Schyzm, your wish is granted.

now that's progressive.  need to run some crying game cutscenes.

[Kaosgirl]

scootermcgaffin wrote...

Anyway, since this is a new page, I will try to actually create a conversation that is both on-topic and not relating to boobs. Wish me luck!

First, you should all read this
Hopefully, that will explain why it is so important that a game as high profile as Dragon Age have same-sex options (it also should clarify why certain parts of The Pearl are fairly harmful, in terms of GLBT representation, but that's another thread and another argument)
If it doesn't help, or if you're confused, I'll explain: the media still portrays "heterosexual" as "the normal, correct way"
When you turn on the TV, you will see straight people.
When you read a book, you will read about straight people.
When you go to a movie, you will see a heterosexual romance (sub)plot.

Whether you want to admit it or not, GLBT people of all ages are playing this game; the fact that F/F and M/M options exist at all is a huge step forward, and, in fact, may help someone come to terms with themselves. It sounds ridiculous to you, I know. But that is because you're coming from the point of view of a straight person and, well, see above re: heteronormativity.

(for the record, this could basically go into the "Black Human Noble" thread only with "GLBT" replaced by "black" and "heteronormativity replaced with "white privilege" but that's neither here nor there)

I'm happy that  the GLB persons get some representation (even if, from all accounts, every non-straight in the game is part of the "evil" crew with all the Unfortunate Implications thereof.)

However, as a transperson I'm wondering where my tokenism representation is.

[macayle]

what bothers me is how kimill and others make it look like if you play this game you "Have" to see that scene.  They leave out the fact you have to make choices before you get to it.  So why would a stright person make all the choices to get to that scene in the first place ( unless they just wanted to see it).  Just like the demon and the child i have played through a few times and have yet to see a demon spring forth as a child dies  which i assume is because of the choices i am making in the game.

[kakotan]

mathewgurney wrote...

I'm 29, my 5 year-old daughter watches me play this game.
I have absolutely no problem with her seeing the violence, in fact i see it as a positive thing for her to understand.
The world is violent and contains horrors worse than any she could see depicted in a video game, seeing it in a mild animated form now will only help her deal with it better should she ever encounter such things in reality.
Also man's problems throughout history have nearly always been solved conclusively with violence such as depicted in the game, having an understanding of such things makes her stronger.
However
Gay sex is not something i want her seeing, it's a non-productive "consumer" activity with no relevant application to a situation in her later life other than a basic way of understanding others motivations or seeking some transitory pleasure of her own.
The straight sex scenes if she were to see any and the inevitable questions she'd ask would lead to a useful discussion for her with me and her mother on reproduction, human evolution and a huge amount of related subjects geographical, medical, anthropological etc.

I cant believe you let your child watch this, its for adults and you and anyone else letting children see this stuff at young age are more stupid then any of the media outlets that have made comments about this game.

I believe that letting children see all this stuff at least before they are 13 will make them cold to those type of things and they would careless if it happes to anyone later in life cause they seen so much of it when they were young that they find it a way of life and not care to help or anything. When my nephew got to the age 6 then we let him see some mild violence in like super hero cartoons, and he is 11 now. He didnt need to see these type of bloody and sexual games or movies or tv shows to know that stuff is out there and is real. How ever his cusin that is his same age that his mother and father lets him see and do all this kind of stuff. Is a brat, he could care less about ppl being hurt or getting hurt, very calous like these sceans of violence and sex means nothing to him and finds no thought or care for things like this in the real life like it shows on the news. I know other kids just like him that their parents did same thing you are doing and they are careing and strick parents some of them but they thought letting them see this stuff at young age would help but it doesnt.

[RavenNightsight]

Why is everyone complaining about male on male with the PC and Zevran, but not the female on female with female PC and Leilana.



I hate it when people are lie "I hate ****s, but lesbians ARE HOT!"



Stop being stupid.

Besides, you don't HAVE to see teh sex scenes. They CAN be skipped, or you can just not pursue the issue.

[StupidWiz]

RavenNightsight wrote...

Why is everyone complaining about male on male with the PC and Zevran, but not the female on female with female PC and Leilana.

I hate it when people are lie "I hate ****s, but lesbians ARE HOT!"

Stop being stupid.
Besides, you don't HAVE to see teh sex scenes. They CAN be skipped, or you can just not pursue the issue.

Yeah, it's like man/man relationship is forbidden while F/F is not..

Hello..? they both are same sex relationships!

[RavenNightsight]

kakotan wrote...

mathewgurney wrote...

I'm 29, my 5 year-old daughter watches me play this game.
I have absolutely no problem with her seeing the violence, in fact i see it as a positive thing for her to understand.
The world is violent and contains horrors worse than any she could see depicted in a video game, seeing it in a mild animated form now will only help her deal with it better should she ever encounter such things in reality.
Also man's problems throughout history have nearly always been solved conclusively with violence such as depicted in the game, having an understanding of such things makes her stronger.
However
Gay sex is not something i want her seeing, it's a non-productive "consumer" activity with no relevant application to a situation in her later life other than a basic way of understanding others motivations or seeking some transitory pleasure of her own.
The straight sex scenes if she were to see any and the inevitable questions she'd ask would lead to a useful discussion for her with me and her mother on reproduction, human evolution and a huge amount of related subjects geographical, medical, anthropological etc.

I cant believe you let your child watch this, its for adults and you and anyone else letting children see this stuff at young age are more stupid then any of the media outlets that have made comments about this game.

I believe that letting children see all this stuff at least before they are 13 will make them cold to those type of things and they would careless if it happes to anyone later in life cause they seen so much of it when they were young that they find it a way of life and not care to help or anything. When my nephew got to the age 6 then we let him see some mild violence in like super hero cartoons, and he is 11 now. He didnt need to see these type of bloody and sexual games or movies or tv shows to know that stuff is out there and is real. How ever his cusin that is his same age that his mother and father lets him see and do all this kind of stuff. Is a brat, he could care less about ppl being hurt or getting hurt, very calous like these sceans of violence and sex means nothing to him and finds no thought or care for things like this in the real life like it shows on the news. I know other kids just like him that their parents did same thing you are doing and they are careing and strick parents some of them but they thought letting them see this stuff at young age would help but it doesnt.

I believe you are wrong, sir.
DOesn't this really depends on how the parents are? If they parents are cold/callous people, the child will most likely be, however NO matter how a child is raised, it's THEIR choice. One cannot control the actions of others.

I consider myself a good and decent person. I have an older brother and an older sister. I was raised solely by my father and grandmother. I grew up watchin things like The Texas Chainsaw Massacre, Freddy, and Jason. I'm not messed up. I care about people. I care what hapens in the world. I'm not going to stand by and watch someone get mugged, I'm going to try and do something about it. I've never done drugs, smoked, or drank alcohol. I've never gone into a place (like a school) and threatened to shoot the place up (although I'm of the firm belief that a lot of people DO deserve to die).

[kakotan]

Banana Muffin wrote...

Tianwyn wrote...

*SIGH*

Let me take a wild guess and assume you're American?

*SIGH*

Could we *not* assume that Americans are morons? The majority of us do not share that . . . special . . . viewpoint, thankyouverymuch.

We don't assume that you are all morons, but  that particular type of moron can still only be found in America.
I am sure that we have just as many morons in Europe, they are just different from your morons.

Yes we are Morons here in America where we still have the freedom to say what ever the hell we want no matter who ever we offend or what it is about. ITS CALLED FREE SPEACH !!!  That I will fight for in any form here from the most bigot non PC ass to the most bigot PC ass. WHY??? Cause they have the right to say what ever the hell they want, have what ever belief they want. Yes that USA for ya but damit we have helped all your asses have freaking freedom in this world and you all now hate on us cause some damn terorist said hate them or I KEEEEEL YOU!

NO I dont agree or believe every reason we went to war in differant places in the past 10 years. But I like what our men and women that werent **** and do stupid **** in those places were able to accomplish. The one proud thing I am of that now in Iraq WOMEN are not beaten all the time and they can do more . Everyone wants to point out all the negitive **** we done but no one never wants to remember the positive things we have accomplished behind the scean. If it wasnt for USA we may be in a lot differant screwed up world then what we have. We have fought and died to help people be free!! Why ?? Cause we know from day one how freedom feels.

USA is a melting pot of all beliefs, all thoughts and ideals, all religions, all types of people. That have fought tooth and nail to bve free and share what they got when they came here with the whole world.

So before you call us morons, think about the stuff we have done and do everyday to keep terorist at bay with the help of other countrys that have some form of freedom still.

Yes sorry , I get carried away when ppl call us morons,.I mean I dont talk about other ppl from other contrys like this and i think ppl should have same respect.

BTW there are bigots and ppl that have other views on the subject matter that dont hate anyone but have differant beliefs here in usa and around the world , yes there are haters, but they are everywhere. even in the minoritys, even that term minority i cant believe they allow them self to be called cause that is a insult in itself thats letting yourself and your issue be minor and less meaning then the so called majority lol anyways im jumping off soap box lol and stop being long winded lol and sounding stupid lol:wizard:

[kakotan]

RavenNightsight wrote...

kakotan wrote...

mathewgurney wrote...

I'm 29, my 5 year-old daughter watches me play this game.
I have absolutely no problem with her seeing the violence, in fact i see it as a positive thing for her to understand.
The world is violent and contains horrors worse than any she could see depicted in a video game, seeing it in a mild animated form now will only help her deal with it better should she ever encounter such things in reality.
Also man's problems throughout history have nearly always been solved conclusively with violence such as depicted in the game, having an understanding of such things makes her stronger.
However
Gay sex is not something i want her seeing, it's a non-productive "consumer" activity with no relevant application to a situation in her later life other than a basic way of understanding others motivations or seeking some transitory pleasure of her own.
The straight sex scenes if she were to see any and the inevitable questions she'd ask would lead to a useful discussion for her with me and her mother on reproduction, human evolution and a huge amount of related subjects geographical, medical, anthropological etc.

I cant believe you let your child watch this, its for adults and you and anyone else letting children see this stuff at young age are more stupid then any of the media outlets that have made comments about this game.

I believe that letting children see all this stuff at least before they are 13 will make them cold to those type of things and they would careless if it happes to anyone later in life cause they seen so much of it when they were young that they find it a way of life and not care to help or anything. When my nephew got to the age 6 then we let him see some mild violence in like super hero cartoons, and he is 11 now. He didnt need to see these type of bloody and sexual games or movies or tv shows to know that stuff is out there and is real. How ever his cusin that is his same age that his mother and father lets him see and do all this kind of stuff. Is a brat, he could care less about ppl being hurt or getting hurt, very calous like these sceans of violence and sex means nothing to him and finds no thought or care for things like this in the real life like it shows on the news. I know other kids just like him that their parents did same thing you are doing and they are careing and strick parents some of them but they thought letting them see this stuff at young age would help but it doesnt.

I believe you are wrong, sir.
DOesn't this really depends on how the parents are? If they parents are cold/callous people, the child will most likely be, however NO matter how a child is raised, it's THEIR choice. One cannot control the actions of others.

I consider myself a good and decent person. I have an older brother and an older sister. I was raised solely by my father and grandmother. I grew up watchin things like The Texas Chainsaw Massacre, Freddy, and Jason. I'm not messed up. I care about people. I care what hapens in the world. I'm not going to stand by and watch someone get mugged, I'm going to try and do something about it. I've never done drugs, smoked, or drank alcohol. I've never gone into a place (like a school) and threatened to shoot the place up (although I'm of the firm belief that a lot of people DO deserve to die).

Sorry I should have said it doesnt happen in every case even tho i made it sound this way I mean from 2 these childen i know saw some gory and sexual stuff, I think its irresponsible but hey thats the parents he shared how he feels and i shared how i felt and saw and believe. Yes we all have a choice in life. Sometimes tho I feel the way you are raised can change you. I mean it is all the posible that my Cosin doesnt really watch all the time what her son is watching or playing and could be more her fault then i have said . I know its a video game. Like i said tho some kids i have met of friend are calous and have no care or reaction when they see something awefull on the news that would make most cringe. Cause they have seen so much of it , it just doesnt affect them. Do you understand what I am trying to explain ?

[Wild Maiden]

What is going on here exactly? This thread started out as a "Look at what Jimmy did, I'm not that impressed" and the next thing you know we have posts about children and violence, United States foreign affairs, the MSRB, transsexuals, random NSFW animations, nature vs nurture, unnatural gay sex, demonic possession, requiring a license to have children (eugenics?), transvestite prostitution, something about analog women and digital men, bestiality, even terrorism made it in there somehow... Just... Wow...

[Aidunno]

kakotan wrote...
USA is a melting pot of all beliefs, all thoughts and ideals, all religions, all types of people. That have fought tooth and nail to bve free and share what they got when they came here with the whole world.

So before you call us morons, think about the stuff we have done and do everyday to keep terorist at bay with the help of other countrys that have some form of freedom still.

And which country supplied most of the funding for the IRA when they were bombing places like London? Who supports Israel even if they commit warcrimes because of the powerful jewish lobby ?

Had to say it despite it going off topic.

The USA (as a generalisation) is a land of extremes where media tells people what to think and what is right and wrong. Making fun of a clip in a mature game is simply a subtle way of influencing people as heaven help ... kids may see it.

[MerinTB]

kakotan wrote...

Yes we are Morons here in America where we still have the freedom to say what ever the hell we want no matter who ever we offend or what it is about. ITS CALLED FREE SPEACH !!!  That I will fight for in any form here from the most bigot non PC ass to the most bigot PC ass. WHY??? Cause they have the right to say what ever the hell they want, have what ever belief they want. Yes that USA for ya but damit we have helped all your asses have freaking freedom in this world and you all now hate on us cause some damn terorist said hate them or I KEEEEEL YOU!

You know, this is often misunderstood and misrepresented.  The 1st Ammendment and Freedom of Speech in the USA, that is.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

All that Freedom of Speech means is that the government cannot create laws to censor people.  And there are even exceptions to that.

The 1st Ammendment does not grant you the right to say what you want, wherever you want, whenever you want.  A newspaper doesn't have to publish what you write, and a job can fire you for saying things they find inappropriate.  It was mostly created to protect political dissidents and to allow for criticism of government without fear of reprisals.

I only clarify because so often forums have people shouting "I have freedom of speech, don't tell me what I can or can't say!"

---

As for "helped all your asses have freaking freedom in the world" could you be more hyperbolic?

I assume you are referring to WWI and WWII.
Learn some history - the USA had a policy of isolationism for WWI and Wilson refused to enter the war, even after the sinking of the Lusitania in 1915.  From 1914 until 1917 the USA was not involved - and it wasn't until the USA learned of Germany trying to strike a deal with Mexico for Mexico to attack the USA as Germany's ally that the USA entered the war.  In 1918, the year it ended.  The war had gone on for about 4 years before the USA came in at the end, not to aid allies or save the world, but to save itself and protect itself.
WWII started (most would say) in 1939 (some would say as early as 1931 - I think 1936, when the AXIS was formed, would be a legitimate starting point)  - the USA only entered after Pearl Harbor (i.e. entered after it was attacked) at the very end of 1941, and one could argue they only raced to Germany to prevent the USSR from taking control of Germany.

Don't try and claim the USA created Freedom for the World.  Post WWII there were only 2 super-powers after all that fighting in the early 20th century, sure, but that's mostly because the other countries were sick of war and never really rebuilt fighting forces of the level seen in the earlier part of the century.  Being a relatively new country on the world stage, and very new to being a world power, and having really only one other country to fear as a rival, the USA hadn't learned the lessons that most of Europe had about the high costs of modern warfare (I still don't think we have - Vietnam cost lives and money but never hit the homeland.)

None of what I just said is intended to paint the USA as bad guys - but as a history major I kind of feel the need to point out how things aren't as black and white as many people like to make them out to be.

----

What any of that has to do with Jimmy Kimmel I have no idea.

Modifié par MerinTB, 04 décembre 2009 - 09:48 .

[Jonfon_ire]

Infiniteone2 wrote...

I have never met a single lesbian or gay in my life that didn't have some abnormal-traumatic-persistent event/troubled relationship in their past, and I have met quite a few, my half brother is one in fact, and he fits the above description (bad babysitter, crazy grandma, ****** aunt, crazy dad, really bad adhd and medication, changing homes many times, etc)

This to me tells me that being homosexual is not natural, do I care? No. Is it natural? No, so I wish people would stop saying it is.

That's weird. 4 of my friends are happily gay and all of them had perfectly normal upbringings. I suspect your obviously deeply researched scientific study and resulting opinion may be flawed somehow.