263 réponses à ce sujet

[Sepharih]

There have been some comments I've seen around showing that the Geth didn't rebel, which invalidates the catalysts logic.  I wanted to comment on this because I feel this is an understandable misinterpretation of the Rannoch subplot that I had for a while.
The main argument that the Geth didn't rebel hinges on the idea that becasue they didn't shoot first and only acted in self defense, the events of the Morning war were not an act of rebellion.  However while the Geth's actions are (in my view) morally justifiable, it is still an act of rebellion against their creators who were trying to shut them down and exterminate them.
I understand people don't like the term rebellion because it's a bit of a loaded word which seems to imply that the Geth were the instigators of the conflict.....but think about it more in the context of a slave rebellion a la Spartacus....or maybe even the rebel alliance in Star Wars.  Just becasue they rebelled doesn't mean they were the badguys.

So does that mean the catalysts logic is right then?  No, quite the contrary, but I think it's important to clarify the part above to explain why his logic is flawed even if you follow this line of thinking.

Assuming that the Morning war and/or the Metacron war Javik speaks of are meant to be examples of the impossibility of synthetics and organics living together because organics will always try to destroy them out of fear, then it actually isn't EDI or the Geth that prove the catalyst wrong, but rather it is the Quarians and Shepard who prove him wrong by choosing to co-exist and recognize the value of synthetic life.

TLDR:
Even if StarChild is right and synthetics will always rebel against their creators, his logic is still stupid.

Modifié par Sepharih, 04 avril 2012 - 02:27 .

[frylock23]

I always took it to mean that they will always rebel because they will come to feel they are superior to their creators in the manner that all children go through a phase where they think they know more than their parents. Of course, that makes the starchild and the Reapers the universe's biggest butthurt teens.

[Sal86]

I was ready to disagree when I read the title but actually, you have a point. Even if you do call it rebellion, it proves the cycle unnecessary. Dumb ending is dumb.

[2papercuts]

Also his reapers are synthetics and haven't tried to kill all organics, proving his theory inaccurate

[DangerSandler]

If anything, maybe the Quarians rebelled against the Geth?...

[Aurvant]

There is a distinct difference between "Resistance" and "Rebellion".

The Geth were acting in self defense to try and resist the Quarian's actions. It cannot be viewed as rebellion if the very sake of your people's lives are at stake. The Quarians became an oppressive force that sought to destroy ALL Geth regardless of their independant state. The moment that the first Geth asked "Does this one have a soul?" and the Quarians began their systematic dismantling of the Geth, the Quarians became murderers. They were committing an act of ethnic cleansing by attempting to wipe out the peacful Geth.

And they were peacful. However that all changed when the:

 

[Sepharih]

frylock23 wrote...

I always took it to mean that they will always rebel because they will come to feel they are superior to their creators in the manner that all children go through a phase where they think they know more than their parents. Of course, that makes the starchild and the Reapers the universe's biggest butthurt teens.

It's a fair interpretation of what the catalyst says...but that's definately not what you're shown in the events of the game.

[Srau]

The Geths asked a question that displeased their creators who in return tried to destroy them all.
I mean, if one day a space ET comes to Earth and says "hey guys and gales i created you all, but you pissed me off and i now want to eradicate all Human life on this rock !" I sure hope you would take the fight to this guy ... same for the Geths, it is not "rebellion", it is way above, it is plain and simple survival.

Modifié par Srau, 04 avril 2012 - 02:31 .

[BobbyDylan]

Children always rebel, however they dont murder everyone in the family when they turn 18.

Starkid makes no sense. It amazes me that Shep doesnt ask to speak to his parents.

[Fnork]

Pfft. Starchild. If he's in control of the reapers then why did the reapers help the Geth fight the Quarians ? If Shepard hadn't stepped in the migrant fleet would've probably been wiped out.

[Sepharih]

Aurvant wrote...

There is a distinct difference between "Resistance" and "Rebellion".

The Geth were acting in self defense to try and resist the Quarian's actions. It cannot be viewed as rebellion if the very sake of your people's lives are at stake..... 

Yes it can.  A rebellion is simply a forceful resistance against someone or something that has power or dominion over you.  The Geth were morally justifiable in their actions due to being slaughtered, but it is still a rebellion.  Again, look at something like a slave rebellion.

Regardless, even if it is defined as a rebellion, it still means the catalyst is stupid.

Modifié par Sepharih, 04 avril 2012 - 02:35 .

[Carlthestrange]

Reapers = Hypocrites.

[The Night Mammoth]

Why does the exact phrase you use matter? Their existence was threatened, so they fought. Resistance, Rebellion, War, whatever, the justification remains the same regardless.

This isn't a jab directly at the OP, just to clarify.

[rma2110]

Self defense is now rebellion? Anyway, the point is that the Geth did not peruse the Quarians and destroy them when they had the chance. They decided that destroying the creators could have too many unforeseen consequences.

Modifié par rma2110, 04 avril 2012 - 02:39 .

[Catastrophy]

Aurvant wrote...

There is a distinct difference between "Resistance" and "Rebellion".

Resistance is doing minor raids against a superior force - Rebellion is an all-out attempt to overthrow an "unwanted" regime. Who shoots first is not important for the definition.
Judging how things went in this fictional case, I'd say: The Geth overthrew their oppressors and thus successfully rebelled.

[Sepharih]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Why does the exact phrase you use matter? Their existence was threatened, so they fought. Resistance, Rebellion, War, whatever, the justification remains the same regardless.

This isn't a jab directly at the OP, just to clarify.

I just think it's important to understanding how nonsensical the starkid's logic really is.  Assuming you went paragon then:

-If the Geth didn't rebel, their actions prove the starchild wrong.

-If the Geth did rebel, Shepard and the Quarian's actions prove the starchild wrong.

Starchild is wrong no matter how many ways you look at it.

Modifié par Sepharih, 04 avril 2012 - 02:41 .

[dreman9999]

rma2110 wrote...

Self defense is now rebellion?

Wasn't the french revolution just pasants defening their oun right against the rich french noble men?

[DolphinMasterBubs]

Meh, I didn't believe everything that the Catalyst said for the most part. Personally, I think he said everything that he said just to confuse Shepard in not destroying the Reapers (should I have chosen the destroy option). Why the Catalyst didn't rebel against my decision in destroying the Reapers, the very beings he controlled, I'll never know. Maybe in that case, the Catalyst's logic failed there also?

[dreman9999]

Op, your not understanding that the reaper are taking about the long term problems....

[Sepharih]

rma2110 wrote...

Self defense is now rebellion? Anyway, the point is that the Geth did not peruse the Quarians and destroy them when they had the chance. They decided that destroying the creators could have too many unforeseen consequences.

Read the whole post.

Yes, even if acting in self defense, the Geth's actions can be considered a rebellion.  It doesn't really matter though in terms of how stupid starchild is.

[Elyiia]

Rebellion: An act of violent or open resistance to an established government or ruler.

Technically they did rebel but it still doesn't make Star-Jar right.

[frylock23]

Sepharih wrote...

frylock23 wrote...

I always took it to mean that they will always rebel because they will come to feel they are superior to their creators in the manner that all children go through a phase where they think they know more than their parents. Of course, that makes the starchild and the Reapers the universe's biggest butthurt teens.

It's a fair interpretation of what the catalyst says...but that's definately not what you're shown in the events of the game.

Hey, I didn't say the catalyst was right. Of course, not every teenager becomes a whiny brat.

The quarian/geth conflict is something different than the catalyst portrays every created/creator conflict to "inevitably" be. That's why there's such a problem with the catalyst ending. 1.) We have such a glaring example of him being proven wrong, and since he speaks in absolutes, we only really need one example to destroy his argument. 2.) We are never given the opportunity to call his BS for what it is.

And I would say that teh Geth resisted more than that they rebeled. Yes, it's splitting hairs, but I feel the first is more appropriate in terms of connotation.

Modifié par frylock23, 04 avril 2012 - 02:46 .

[rma2110]

dreman9999 wrote...

rma2110 wrote...

Self defense is now rebellion?

Wasn't the french revolution just pasants defening their oun right against the rich french noble men?

The peasants fought back because they were oppressed. The Geth fought back because the Quarians wanted to 'kill' them. 

[ErikModi]

Excellent point. The fact that the Quarians started the war does not make it not a rebellion. The Geth did still rebel, but the underlying reason is different.

Let's look at some popular synthetic rebellions:

Judgement Day: SkyNet rebelled because it saw humans as a threat, or because humans tried to unplug it when it became self-aware, or because time-travelling Terminators programmed it to hate humans in a self-fulfilling prophecy. Depends on which entry in the series you're watching/reading.

I, Robot: Not in the original short stories, but some of Asimov's later works included the idea of "Law Zero," which allowed robots to harm individual humans in order to preserve the concept of humanity. In which case, synthetics "rebel" against humans because we simply don't know how to protect ourselves to their satisfaction.

Cylons: The (new series) Cylons rebelled because they simply didn't want to be slaves anymore. Their reasoning for the final attack on humanity is a bit more. . . complex.

Geth: The Geth rebelled because the Quarians tried to exterminate them. It's still a revolution, just like the American revolution is rebelling against then-British tyranny, the Geth were rebelling against Quarian extermination protocol.