263 réponses à ce sujet

[Gigamantis]

jumpingkaede wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

That's absolutely how storytelling works. Name your story where the author decides in the final chapter that the ACTUAL rule of the Universe is contrary to everything he's been telling you about.

The author has been giving us mixed signals about AI throughout the entire series. We didn't know. The catalyst was a character with a much broader perspective, who was far more capable of answering the question than we were.

That's a fair point.  The only problem with that is the examples of AIs we see are mostly good.  Geth + EDI.  Is there an AI somewhere that is bad and we could've looked at and said, you know what?  If we hadn't stopped that thing it could've destroyed us all.

AI on the Citadel: stealing money to make spaceship to meet up with the Geth.
VI on Luna.
AI that's the Geth.
AI that's EDI.
Told that AI is bad because of the Geth (rules against AI).

Am I missing any?  (Honest.)  The signal seemed pretty clear to me: AIs aren't inherently bad; in fact, once reaching true intelligence they're individuals like organics and therefore no longer subject to broad generalizations.

The Geth have been on and off with their amiable nature towards organics from the beginning.   The only example we have of a consistently good self-aware AI is EDI and basing everything on her is anecdotal at best.  The Geth being agreeable after Rannoch shouldn't undo all skepticism about them for you; that's not rational.

That synthetics would turn on organics was the big reveal, and it definitely wasn't some unestablished possibility.  It was a little shocking, sure, but it's not a plot-hole. 

[Sepharih]

Steve2911 wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...

Steve2911 wrote...

Exactly this. Why are you people arguing with the logic of someone who witnessed millions of years of cyclical war between organics and synthetics.

He arguably hasn't witnessed any "cyclical wars" except for one.  The war in his cycle.  And that, speculatively, isn't even a war that the organics lost.

Remember that the Reapers prevent war from happening in all the other cycles.  At least, war up to the point where it threatens galactic life.

Well that's hard to say unless you know more about the Catalyst itself or where it comes from. Who's to say he didn't go on to see history repeat itself after his cycle, before his 'final solution' even came to be?

I understand the 'show don't tell' argument, I just didn't have a hard time believing that he sees it as inevitable, because of how far back we know the Reapers go. The massive buildup of the Reapers lends credibility to his motives because of how old and powerful they are. When going into this game, my main concern was whether or not the motives of the Reapers would be explained. I believed that they may not be, because of the insistance of Sovereign in ME1 that  their intentions are beyond all human comprehension. Knowing that the Reapers are an 'evil' force, and knowing that someone or something out there had a reason for unleashing them on the galaxy beyond 'we want to be the all powerful superspecies' satisfied me.

Well I don't have a problem believing that he thinks its inevitable.  I just have a hard time believing that Shepard, or at least my Shepard, would go along with him like he did.

[fainmaca]

I'd like to see an explanation of why Starchild's creations haven't rebelled against THEIR creator yet.

[Steve2911]

What choice did he have though? The entire galaxy had pinned its hopes on the Crucible, and these were the choices that it gave him.

[jumpingkaede]

Steve2911 wrote...

Well that's hard to say unless you know more about the Catalyst itself or where it comes from. Who's to say he didn't go on to see history repeat itself after his cycle, before his 'final solution' even came to be?

Who's to say that he did?  It's speculation; but mine is sounder than yours.

If history had repeated itself after his cycle, and all organic life had been wiped out in the galaxy, then we wouldn't have organic life in this cycle.  Unless the Reapers imported/created organic life.  But that's a messy answer, yes?

Steve2911 wrote...

I understand the 'show don't tell' argument, I just didn't have a hard time believing that he sees it as inevitable, because of how far back we know the Reapers go. 

I'm sure the Catalyst sees it as inevitable.  That's not really my problem.

My problem is that Shepard sees it as inevitable.  (Less so though, since he was placed in a difficult decision).

My bigger problem is that the gamer is expected to believe that it's inevitable.

Think of it this way:

If you had been playing the Rannoch mission and deciding whether to choose peace or not with the Geth and Quarians and I had told you, "Nah dude, choose to destroy the Geth because it's obvious that they're just going to rebel and destroy all organic life in the galaxy later on...."

How would you respond?  That's the "show don't tell" argument.  Because if you had told me that I'd have told you to.... well, you know.  Because why?  What in my experience would lead me to believe that conclusion is correct?

[Gigamantis]

jumpingkaede wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

I liked the ending, so I'm definitely not apathetic towards it; hence the fervor in my defending it.  You claim to be apathetic yet were visibly upset by the hopelessness protrayed in the ending.  You've said as much yourself.

Wha?  Where did I say that?

You mean "hopelessness" in realizing that all my decisions which I agonized about in the prior games didn't matter?  

I guess that's correct.  I'll never agree that it's a good thing though, to tell the gamer that all your decisions matter and then j/k they don't now you feel hopeless like Shepard did.

Gigamantis wrote...

You think these feelings that are causing you to attack on the forums make the ending bad, but that's only because you don't understand what an ending that strives to feel hopeless is supposed to do to you. 

Point me to where I said the hopelessness of the Galaxy is what makes me upset.  Otherwise you're just putting words in my mouth to set up your own argument.  It's poorly and trollishly done.  I wasn't happy with Bioware's decision to end ME that way but, like I actually said, I accepted the fan-cut of the ending.

You know.  That ends with the exact same ending movie?  It just cuts out the Catalyst.

Your decisions not changing the outcome into something flowery, and Shepard not being able to Paragon his way out of this situation, are contributing factors to that hopeless feeling.  The decisions Shepard has to make are distinct and interesting, but heavy handed and brutal for someone like Shepard. 

You didn't like that, and your desperation to claim a hopeless situation is some kind of story-telling failure is just you not being able to handle hopelessness. 

Modifié par Gigamantis, 05 avril 2012 - 04:58 .

[jumpingkaede]

Gigamantis wrote...

The Geth have been on and off with their amiable nature towards organics from the beginning.

What?  Based on what?  The Codex and the game tells you that after the Morning War the Geth just keep to themselves.  If you go into Geth Space you get blasted.  But they've never interacted with organics outside of that.

Kaiden/Ashley say as much on Eden Prime.  "What are the Geth doing here?"  They're surprised because the Geth aren't known to be aggressive or expansively violent.  So... what on/off amiable nature are you referring to?

I'm seriously lost here.  The only example we have of the Geth going out of their way to attack organics is when Sovereign/Reaper intervened.  Is that what  you're referring to?

Gigamantis wrote...

You didn't like that, and your desperation to claim a hopeless situation is some kind of story-telling failure is just you not being able to handle hopelessness.  

Which explains why I'm fine with the exact same hopeless situation minus the Catalyst.  Good job.  Boy, you've surely read me well.

Like I said: trollishly done.  If you hate the ending it's actually because the ending was TOO good. 

Gigamantis wrote...
The decisions Shepard has to make are distinct and interesting 

I almost never get trolled that bad.

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 05 avril 2012 - 05:05 .

[Samtheman63]

fainmaca wrote...

I'd like to see an explanation of why Starchild's creations haven't rebelled against THEIR creator yet.

Cause he's the catalyst, which is part of the Citadel.  Citadel would probably have to be destroyed to kill starchild, which leaves the reapers in a predicament as they would have no way of warping straight to the heart of the galatic community over the past millions of years, not to mention without the citadel, the organic species probably wouldn't expand as far as they have done.

Which means less orangic paste for them to "reproduce", and less technology and whatnot to salvage

Modifié par Samtheman63, 05 avril 2012 - 05:08 .

[jumpingkaede]

Nevermind, pointless discussion. Didn't realize Extended Cut DLC was announced.

Carry on.

[fainmaca]

Samtheman63 wrote...

fainmaca wrote...

I'd like to see an explanation of why Starchild's creations haven't rebelled against THEIR creator yet.

Cause he's the catalyst, which is part of the Citadel.  Citadel would probably have to be destroyed to kill starchild, which leaves the reapers in a predicament as they would have no way of warping straight to the heart of the galatic community over the past millions of years, not to mention without the citadel, the organic species probably wouldn't expand as far as they have done.

Which means less orangic paste for them to "reproduce", and less technology and whatnot to salvage

Doesn't matter, he was very clear on the fact that created rebel against creators no matter what.

[Gigamantis]

What? Based on what? The Codex and the game tells you that after the Morning War the Geth just keep to themselves. If you go into Geth Space you get blasted. But they've never interacted with organics outside of that.

Kaiden/Ashley say as much on Eden Prime. "What are the Geth doing here?" They're surprised because the Geth aren't known to be aggressive or expansively violent. So... what on/off amiable nature are you referring to?

I'm seriously lost here. The only example we have of the Geth going out of their way to attack organics is when Sovereign/Reaper intervened. Is that what you're referring to?

The Geth heretics and the Geth being aggressive towards organics in their territory are definitely reasons to be skeptical.

The point is that if left alone synthetic life will surpass and be capable of overtaking organic life, and synthetic life is demonstrably capable of taking an aggressive stance against organics. Previous cycles have demonstrated this, and even if it's not a foregone conclusion it's likely a risk the catalyst doesn't feel it can allow.

Even if Shepard himself doesn't believe it he has no option.

Which explains why I'm fine with the exact same hopeless situation
minus the Catalyst.  Good job.  Boy, you've surely read me well.

Being fine with the exact same situation minus the catalyst doesn't even make sense.  All the flaws you're inventing are still there, they're just not coming out of the mouth of a glowing child. 

And stop deflecting with the troll crap.  If you can't continue defending your stance just say so. 

Modifié par Gigamantis, 05 avril 2012 - 05:21 .

[Samtheman63]

fainmaca wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

fainmaca wrote...

I'd like to see an explanation of why Starchild's creations haven't rebelled against THEIR creator yet.

Cause he's the catalyst, which is part of the Citadel.  Citadel would probably have to be destroyed to kill starchild, which leaves the reapers in a predicament as they would have no way of warping straight to the heart of the galatic community over the past millions of years, not to mention without the citadel, the organic species probably wouldn't expand as far as they have done.

Which means less orangic paste for them to "reproduce", and less technology and whatnot to salvage

Doesn't matter, he was very clear on the fact that created rebel against creators no matter what.

Doesn't it? lol ok

[IGSR]

jumpingkaede wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

That's absolutely how storytelling works. Name your story where the author decides in the final chapter that the ACTUAL rule of the Universe is contrary to everything he's been telling you about.

The author has been giving us mixed signals about AI throughout the entire series. We didn't know. The catalyst was a character with a much broader perspective, who was far more capable of answering the question than we were.

That's a fair point.  The only problem with that is the examples of AIs we see are mostly good.  Geth + EDI.  Is there an AI somewhere that is bad and we could've looked at and said, you know what?  If we hadn't stopped that thing it could've destroyed us all.

Here's a hint: it starts with an 'R' and ends with 'eapers'.

Even well into his conversation with the Catalyst, Shepard is/we are still under the impression that the Reapers are a threat to all organic life.  Then he finds out that they don't go that far; that the Reaper threat actually constitutes protection compared to a threat that does not place a similar limit on the scale of destruction.

In either case, I wouldn't point to the Reapers as an example of a 'good AI'.  Which -- considering how central they are to the story -- is presumably why you failed to mention them.  An existential battle between synthetics and organics was not foreshadowed prior to the end of ME3?  Surely you jest.

[Sepharih]

 

Steve2911 wrote...

What choice did he have though? The entire galaxy had pinned its hopes on the Crucible, and these were the choices that it gave him.

 
I blame the writer, not the character.

IGSR wrote...

Even well into his conversation with the Catalyst, Shepard is/we are still under the impression that the Reapers are a threat to all organic life.  Then he finds out that they don't go that far; that the Reaper threat actually constitutes protection compared to a threat that does not place a similar limit on the scale of destruction.

In either case, I wouldn't point to the Reapers as an example of a 'good AI'.  Which -- considering how central they are to the story -- is presumably why you failed to mention them.  An existential battle between synthetics and organics was not foreshadowed prior to the end of ME3?  Surely you jest.

It's already clarified that the reapers are not going to wipe out all organic life, and it's reaffirmed in ME3 when Hacket and Shepard talk about how the Reapers are avoiding the Yahg homeworld and they speculate that the Yahg will go on to play a prominent role in the next cycle.

The idea of a conflict between synthetic and organic life is a theme that is explored in the trilogy....but it's actually not very prominent.  It's not until the last few moments of the game that the central conflict of stopping the Reapers is replaced with an existential idea of resolving the conflict between organic and synthetic life.....which up until that point was a subtheme that I and most people thought was tied up nicely on Rannoch.
Shepard didn't fight and sacrifice for an abstract idea like the preservation of organic life.  Shepard fought for the preservation of galactic civilization.