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[dreman9999]

Sepharih wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Why does the exact phrase you use matter? Their existence was threatened, so they fought. Resistance, Rebellion, War, whatever, the justification remains the same regardless.

This isn't a jab directly at the OP, just to clarify.

I just think it's important to understanding how nonsensical the starkid's logic really is.  Assuming you went paragon then:

-If the Geth didn't rebel, their actions prove the starchild wrong.

-If the Geth did rebel, Shepard and the Quarian's actions prove the starchild wrong.

Starchild is wrong no matter how many ways you look at it.

Op, your not understanding that the reaper are taking about the long term problems....

What guarantees   the peace will last?

[dreman9999]

Imperium Alpha wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

rma2110 wrote...

Self defense is now rebellion?

Wasn't the french revolution just pasants defening their oun right against the rich french noble men?

Rebellion, uprising, or insurrection is a refusal of obedience or order. It may, therefore, be seen as encompassing a range of behaviors aimed at destroying or replacing an established authority such as a government or a head of state.

In the case of French revolution. It was a rebellion.

Then the geth did rebel.

[sean10mm]

The whole game makes the point that real AI behavior is indistinguishable from organic behavior, good or bad, so the distinction between organic and synthetic is ultimately arbitrary. Everything the Geth do is understandable in human terms.  Put humans in the Geth position as slaves of the Quarians and the humans rebel, too.

Modifié par sean10mm, 04 avril 2012 - 02:49 .

[Sepharih]

frylock23 wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

frylock23 wrote...

I always took it to mean that they will always rebel because they will come to feel they are superior to their creators in the manner that all children go through a phase where they think they know more than their parents. Of course, that makes the starchild and the Reapers the universe's biggest butthurt teens.

It's a fair interpretation of what the catalyst says...but that's definately not what you're shown in the events of the game.

Hey, I didn't say the catalyst was right. Of course, not every teenager becomes a whiny brat.

The quarian/geth conflict is something different than the catalyst portrays every created/creator conflict to "inevitably" be. That's why there's such a problem with the catalyst ending. 1.) We have such a glaring example of him being proven wrong, and since he speaks in absolutes, we only really need one example to destroy his argument. 2.) We are never given the opportunity to call his BS for what it is.

No argument here.  

dreman9999 wrote...

Op, your not understanding that the reaper are taking about the long term problems....

Oh I understand, but I reject the premise of his argument.

[rma2110]

I disagree. Rebellion is fighting against oppression. Fighting to get your freedom, just representation, more equal rights, ect. Fighting for your very right to exist is self defense.

[dreman9999]

sean10mm wrote...

The whole game makes the point that real AI behavior is indistinguishable from organic behavior, good or bad, so the distinction between organic and synthetic is ultimately arbitrary. Everything the Geth do is understandable in human terms.  Put humans in the Geth position as slaves of the Quarians and the humans rebel, too.

True, but it also pushed the fact that machines are at the sametime alien to organics. Exaple, the house divided quest with legion and Javiks conversation about the synthetic life.

[Maimh]

dreman9999 wrote...

Op, your not understanding that the reaper are taking about the long term problems....

The Geth have been around for 300 years, just how long term are we talking?
Besides, if the Reapers had not interfered, the Quarians would have destroyed the Geth.

[leapingmonkeys]

The starkid did not say that the synthetics would merely "rebel" against some specific group of organics. It said that the synthetics would decide to wipe out *all* organics.

So, a synthetic race deciding to ally with or against a particular faction has nothing to do with the starkid's claims.

In fact, one consistent theme from the Geth is that they are, by and large, peaceful. The only times that the Geth were trying to destroy anything was when they were under Reaper influence. They really just want to go their own way, which is a complete contradiction to what the starkid was claiming.

We also had the same theme from EDI.

This is one of the many ways in which the many claims made by the starkid simply do not jive with the rest of the ME experience.

The whole synthetic-vs-organic thing was just silly.  Most conflicts arise over competition for a scarce resource.  The Geth, for example, are so completely different in their needs vs organics that there is very little overlap in terms of what resources they need.  Get can happily live on planets that organics cannot, for example.  The mere fact that the two species have so few resource needs in common means that they are *more* likely to be able to peacefully co-exist than organics-with-organics.  It was such a lame plot device...

Modifié par leapingmonkeys, 04 avril 2012 - 02:58 .

[jumpingkaede]

 It really doesn't matter what you call it.  If you consider it a rebellion, fine.  

But then the Catalyst's grand and revealing proclamation that "the created will always rebel against the creators" becomes more like "the oppressed will always rebel against the oppressors".  Or "the victims will always defend themselves from the offenders".

Really.  Tell me something I don't know.

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 04 avril 2012 - 02:55 .

[frylock23]

dreman9999 wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Why does the exact phrase you use matter? Their existence was threatened, so they fought. Resistance, Rebellion, War, whatever, the justification remains the same regardless.

This isn't a jab directly at the OP, just to clarify.

I just think it's important to understanding how nonsensical the starkid's logic really is.  Assuming you went paragon then:

-If the Geth didn't rebel, their actions prove the starchild wrong.

-If the Geth did rebel, Shepard and the Quarian's actions prove the starchild wrong.

Starchild is wrong no matter how many ways you look at it.

Op, your not understanding that the reaper are taking about the long term problems....

What guarantees   the peace will last?

Nothing does, but nothing guarantees that the peace will last between any two organic races either. Why should the situation be special because a synthetic race involved. Again the catalyst's logic is flawed.

[GnusmasTHX]

rma2110 wrote...

I disagree. Rebellion is fighting against oppression. Fighting to get your freedom, just representation, more equal rights, ect. Fighting for your very right to exist is self defense.

I too disagree with the dictionary sometimes. <_<

[Tleining]

@ dreman9999
no, it was a Revolution. The peasants wanted a Change in the Government, they couldn't get that through voting or peaceful means (they didn't have the rights to do it), so they started fighting.

@ Sepharih
The Geth were obedient. They sacrificed their mobile hardware to protect the Quarians. Only when their very existence was in danger, did they drive the Quarians off. Once the Quarians were no longer a Danger to the Geth OR THEMSELVES, the Geth left them alone.

And ever since then, they have waited for their Creators to return. Sorry, but i can't see this as a Rebellion. If the Geth would have issued demands to the Quarians, "you can only return if you grant us equal rights", okay, i could accept it. But all they are asking for is to be allowed to exist.

[The Night Mammoth]

dreman9999 wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Why does the exact phrase you use matter? Their existence was threatened, so they fought. Resistance, Rebellion, War, whatever, the justification remains the same regardless.

This isn't a jab directly at the OP, just to clarify.

I just think it's important to understanding how nonsensical the starkid's logic really is.  Assuming you went paragon then:

-If the Geth didn't rebel, their actions prove the starchild wrong.

-If the Geth did rebel, Shepard and the Quarian's actions prove the starchild wrong.

Starchild is wrong no matter how many ways you look at it.

Op, your not understanding that the reaper are taking about the long term problems....

What guarantees   the peace will last?

What guarantees it wont? 

[Sepharih]

 

rma2110 wrote...

I disagree. Rebellion is fighting against oppression. Fighting to get your freedom, just representation, more equal rights, ect. Fighting for your very right to exist is self defense.

 
The two are not mutually exclusive.

Opsrbest wrote...
And the Quarian that still wants to study the Geth? That story line is never fully resolved. You are given a base assertion that he Geth and Quarians now live in peace and harmony which is in the context of the story arch for the game accurate, while in context of the Catalyst inaccurate. It's not about a simple what is here and now more the finite absolute that it will occur.

Say the Quarians or Geth with their new AI change there mind? View each other as a threat?

The issue with the argument isn't that it's neccessarily wrong only that the effects of the Reaper code aren't known. It's shorterm vs. longterm. It's the same arguement that is put before you when dealing with the Krogan. Do you cure the genophage or not.

Yup, Cured the genophage with zero hesitation.
Even if you want to argue that, it still means that the ending suddenly introduces new information which radically contradicts everything you are shown in the story thereby eliminating any possibility for catharsis.  These are interesting concepts to debate about on forums...but if you agree it's contradictory to the context of the story arch then it's still stupid.

jumpingkaede wrote...

 It really doesn't matter what you call it.  If you consider it a rebellion, fine.  

But then the Catalyst's grand and revealing proclamation that "the created will always rebel against the creators" becomes more like "the oppressed will always rebel against the oppressors".  Or "the victims will always defend themselves from the offenders".

Really.  Tell me something I don't know.

 
This one understands!

[dreman9999]

Sepharih wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Op, your not understanding that the reaper are taking about the long term problems....

Oh I understand, but I reject the premise of his argument.

So your saying that a race of machines that are timeless that spent eons watching organic to the point that they could perdict there acting to the ponit of placeing mass relay in a way the  nearly every advance race can find it is wrong to say we are chaotic and cause are own distruction?

Do yourealise that we are constaly fight with ourselve. Hell, during the cold war we nearly blow are selves up 10 times over. And we cause drastict envirnmentle disasters. What if the reaper see the we as organics, by making synthetic , cause that level of distruction on a globle scale. That they what organics do this over and over again...
What it the fight between organic and synthetics get so drastic that it ends up as a pyrrhic victory.
A victorythatcome to a draw which no one can fight back after and every organic world is so destroyed that the organics can't survive it but he synhetic can .

[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Why does the exact phrase you use matter? Their existence was threatened, so they fought. Resistance, Rebellion, War, whatever, the justification remains the same regardless.

This isn't a jab directly at the OP, just to clarify.

I just think it's important to understanding how nonsensical the starkid's logic really is.  Assuming you went paragon then:

-If the Geth didn't rebel, their actions prove the starchild wrong.

-If the Geth did rebel, Shepard and the Quarian's actions prove the starchild wrong.

Starchild is wrong no matter how many ways you look at it.

Op, your not understanding that the reaper are taking about the long term problems....

What guarantees   the peace will last?

What guarantees it wont? 

ORGANIC'S NATURE. The nature of organic causes conflict. If you look in history and the event of the world now, you can clearly see that.

[Sepharih]

dreman9999 wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Why does the exact phrase you use matter? Their existence was threatened, so they fought. Resistance, Rebellion, War, whatever, the justification remains the same regardless.

This isn't a jab directly at the OP, just to clarify.

I just think it's important to understanding how nonsensical the starkid's logic really is.  Assuming you went paragon then:

-If the Geth didn't rebel, their actions prove the starchild wrong.

-If the Geth did rebel, Shepard and the Quarian's actions prove the starchild wrong.

Starchild is wrong no matter how many ways you look at it.

Op, your not understanding that the reaper are taking about the long term problems....

What guarantees   the peace will last?

Not a damn thing, and that still doesn't justify the nihilistic attitude the catalyst has.  If war between synthetics and organics is not an absolute certainty then it invalidates his logic.
Right now, at this point in history, we've got enough nuclear weapons to wipe out all life on this planet with no guarantees it won't happen tomorrow....but it doesn't make it an inevitablity....nor is it a justification for wipping us all out.

[dreman9999]

Maimh wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Op, your not understanding that the reaper are taking about the long term problems....

The Geth have been around for 300 years, just how long term are we talking?
Besides, if the Reapers had not interfered, the Quarians would have destroyed the Geth.

Yet, you not considering the fact thathe the geth can run away and regroup.
But it we really want to go the far, there would not be any quarian if the reapers never did their cycle.

[Sepharih]

dreman9999 wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Op, your not understanding that the reaper are taking about the long term problems....

Oh I understand, but I reject the premise of his argument.

So your saying that a race of machines that are timeless that spent eons watching organic to the point that they could perdict there acting to the ponit of placeing mass relay in a way the  nearly every advance race can find it is wrong to say we are chaotic and cause are own distruction?

Do yourealise that we are constaly fight with ourselve. Hell, during the cold war we nearly blow are selves up 10 times over. And we cause drastict envirnmentle disasters. What if the reaper see the we as organics, by making synthetic , cause that level of distruction on a globle scale. That they what organics do this over and over again...
What it the fight between organic and synthetics get so drastic that it ends up as a pyrrhic victory.
A victorythatcome to a draw which no one can fight back after and every organic world is so destroyed that the organics can't survive it but he synhetic can .

There's a lot of "what ifs" in that paragraph.

A machine that was timeless and spent eons watching organics to the point that they could predict  their actions would not come to this nonsensical conclusion.  Only a writer with a looming deadline and a lack of good ideas would.

[Sepharih]

Imperium Alpha wrote...
However. Geth Heretic did came out with that idea and the AI on the citadel too. What Starchild is warning you about is that someday someone will create an AI that will rebel and decide to go into a full galaxy genoicide on any lifeform and it will be too late to stop it.

The universe will collapse on itself before that happens.  Prove me wrong.