263 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

Sepharih wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Why does the exact phrase you use matter? Their existence was threatened, so they fought. Resistance, Rebellion, War, whatever, the justification remains the same regardless.

This isn't a jab directly at the OP, just to clarify.

I just think it's important to understanding how nonsensical the starkid's logic really is.  Assuming you went paragon then:

-If the Geth didn't rebel, their actions prove the starchild wrong.

-If the Geth did rebel, Shepard and the Quarian's actions prove the starchild wrong.

Starchild is wrong no matter how many ways you look at it.

Op, your not understanding that the reaper are taking about the long term problems....

What guarantees   the peace will last?

Not a damn thing, and that still doesn't justify the nihilistic attitude the catalyst has.  If war between synthetics and organics is not an absolute certainty then it invalidates his logic.
Right now, at this point in history, we've got enough nuclear weapons to wipe out all life on this planet with no guarantees it won't happen tomorrow....but it doesn't make it an inevitablity....nor is it a justification for wipping us all out.

As long asit's on the table, there's always a chance of it happening. They way there would be no chanceis it no longer on the table. Nuclear weapons are a big giant clack over our head illustating we can make our own form of self doom. This even extends to the fact that we can poison our own environment as well.
We have a tendecy, when we expand too quickly, to self distruct. Synthetic life is one of those indirect example.
I'm not say syntheticlife is going to destory all organic life...But organic life has a tendence of putting synthetic life in a corner and causing it to fight back.

[Bfler]

Imperium Alpha wrote...

What Starchild is warning you about is that someday someone will create an AI that will rebel and decide to go into a full galaxy genoicide on any lifeform and it will be too late to stop it.

Add "technological advanced" before lifeform and you have the description of the Reapers.

[dreman9999]

rma2110 wrote...

I disagree. Rebellion is fighting against oppression. Fighting to get your freedom, just representation, more equal rights, ect. Fighting for your very right to exist is self defense.

And how far can oppresion get? Much of the oppresstion includes:Murder, rape, slavery, classisum, and a lesser group left in the poorest condition with a high mortality rate.

If any of those are the cause of a rebelion, then it still is self defence.

[esideras]

The Geth did rebel, yes but It was due to self preservation. If the Quarians hadn't been such ****s they would never have rebeled.

[Sepharih]

Imperium Alpha wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

Imperium Alpha wrote...
However. Geth Heretic did came out with that idea and the AI on the citadel too. What Starchild is warning you about is that someday someone will create an AI that will rebel and decide to go into a full galaxy genoicide on any lifeform and it will be too late to stop it.

The universe will collapse on itself before that happens.  Prove me wrong.

.

Mass Effect 4/5/6 is about a tech singularity 
(if you don't know already everything I say is watch by BioWare dev and they make the game based on it. )

Funny.  

Point is, even if we accept the catalyst as having perfect powers of prognastication (and that's a big assumption), it doesn't change the fact that we're not shown anything in the story to suggest that he's right.  In fact...quite the contrary.

Modifié par Sepharih, 04 avril 2012 - 03:16 .

[jumpingkaede]

Sepharih wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...

 It really doesn't matter what you call it.  If you consider it a rebellion, fine.  

But then the Catalyst's grand and revealing proclamation that "the created will always rebel against the creators" becomes more like "the oppressed will always rebel against the oppressors".  Or "the victims will always defend themselves from the offenders".

Really.  Tell me something I don't know.

 
This one understands!

Sadly, Bioware's ending then becomes the same cliched JRPG stuff we see in... well, 9/10 JRPGs.

You know, where some evil monster/spirit/demon is trying to wipe out humanity?  Because humans will always wage war and destroy so the only way to prevent that and protect the Earth/civilization/other species/nature is to get rid of humans?  (Mostly recently seen in Tales of Graces F).

That's Bioware's ME3 ending.  

[Sepharih]

dreman9999 wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Why does the exact phrase you use matter? Their existence was threatened, so they fought. Resistance, Rebellion, War, whatever, the justification remains the same regardless.

This isn't a jab directly at the OP, just to clarify.

I just think it's important to understanding how nonsensical the starkid's logic really is.  Assuming you went paragon then:

-If the Geth didn't rebel, their actions prove the starchild wrong.

-If the Geth did rebel, Shepard and the Quarian's actions prove the starchild wrong.

Starchild is wrong no matter how many ways you look at it.

Op, your not understanding that the reaper are taking about the long term problems....

What guarantees   the peace will last?

Not a damn thing, and that still doesn't justify the nihilistic attitude the catalyst has.  If war between synthetics and organics is not an absolute certainty then it invalidates his logic.
Right now, at this point in history, we've got enough nuclear weapons to wipe out all life on this planet with no guarantees it won't happen tomorrow....but it doesn't make it an inevitablity....nor is it a justification for wipping us all out.

As long asit's on the table, there's always a chance of it happening.

As long as peace is on the table, there's always a chance of it happening.

[Maimh]

dreman9999 wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Op, your not understanding that the reaper are taking about the long term problems....

Oh I understand, but I reject the premise of his argument.

So your saying that a race of machines that are timeless that spent eons watching organic to the point that they could perdict there acting to the ponit of placeing mass relay in a way the  nearly every advance race can find it is wrong to say we are chaotic and cause are own distruction?

Do yourealise that we are constaly fight with ourselve. Hell, during the cold war we nearly blow are selves up 10 times over. And we cause drastict envirnmentle disasters. What if the reaper see the we as organics, by making synthetic , cause that level of distruction on a globle scale. That they what organics do this over and over again...
What it the fight between organic and synthetics get so drastic that it ends up as a pyrrhic victory.
A victorythatcome to a draw which no one can fight back after and every organic world is so destroyed that the organics can't survive it but he synhetic can .

First, could you please clean up your grammar and spelling? It makes it hard to follow your argument.

Now, as you say, it is correct taht humans are constantly fighting, and as the game has shown us, so does the different races. So why is it radically different when it you involve AI?
Yes, we could have destroyed humanity, yet here we are still here.
The Geth could have killed all Qurians, yet they let them leave.

I can see the Reapers come to a negatice deterministic conclusion that organics will destroy themselves.
However I find it problematic to see what is is they are trying to preserve.
Organic life is amazingly adaptive, even if we fired off all bombs in the world, there would still be bacteria, there would still be life in the sea.
The missions on Tuthunka clearly show us that life always finds a way. So why should the Reapers even bother? They do clearly not care for the individual cultures beyond their genetic material.

[dreman9999]

Sepharih wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Op, your not understanding that the reaper are taking about the long term problems....

Oh I understand, but I reject the premise of his argument.

So your saying that a race of machines that are timeless that spent eons watching organic to the point that they could perdict there acting to the ponit of placeing mass relay in a way the  nearly every advance race can find it is wrong to say we are chaotic and cause are own distruction?

Do yourealise that we are constaly fight with ourselve. Hell, during the cold war we nearly blow are selves up 10 times over. And we cause drastict envirnmentle disasters. What if the reaper see the we as organics, by making synthetic , cause that level of distruction on a globle scale. That they what organics do this over and over again...
What it the fight between organic and synthetics get so drastic that it ends up as a pyrrhic victory.
A victorythatcome to a draw which no one can fight back after and every organic world is so destroyed that the organics can't survive it but he synhetic can .

There's a lot of "what ifs" in that paragraph.

A machine that was timeless and spent eons watching organics to the point that they could predict  their actions would not come to this nonsensical conclusion.  Only a writer with a looming deadline and a lack of good ideas would.

They would.  The fact that they are watching a level of life self extigish itself over and over again, would have that Machine race  think  that something is wrong with organics and wonder what  would be the cause to that  behavior.
Most of what the reapers are doing is just a case of differnet morlity from ours.

[Nogthwai]

The logic is very convoluted to say the least (not necessarily wrong in the sense that it might not be true, but it must not be true at the same time). I doubt whoever wrote this actually put much thought into it at all.

His main argument do not require the Geth to be actively hostile to organics, nor does any AI have to be genocidal, his statement could still be true, since he does not say that all synthetics will always rebell all the time. Maybe the Geth would rebell in 200 years or in 25 000 years, we have no way of knowing. What we do know for certain is that the machine race(s) during the metacon war in the kast cycle did try to wipe out organic life. We also know that the Protheans won this war (This is actually the breaking point for me).

The Geth / Edi are probably just a "bad" gameplay element that does not really fit the view of the Catalyst. It does not matter much in the long run. But it is certainly bad deisgn, because it makes i very hard to understand; if the Geth would have allied with the Reapers anyway, the Player would be inclined to believe him.

The other fundamental Problem is that the Catalyst does not know if his statement about the inevitable genocide of organics is true, since it has never happened. He always interrupts before any synthetics can rise and defeat all organics. He has no evidence to support his claim, since he himself is (or was) an organic at some point of time to be able to come to that conclusion at all. Hence he simply lies at the end.

Modifié par Nogthwai, 04 avril 2012 - 03:25 .

[dreman9999]

Sepharih wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Why does the exact phrase you use matter? Their existence was threatened, so they fought. Resistance, Rebellion, War, whatever, the justification remains the same regardless.

This isn't a jab directly at the OP, just to clarify.

I just think it's important to understanding how nonsensical the starkid's logic really is.  Assuming you went paragon then:

-If the Geth didn't rebel, their actions prove the starchild wrong.

-If the Geth did rebel, Shepard and the Quarian's actions prove the starchild wrong.

Starchild is wrong no matter how many ways you look at it.

Op, your not understanding that the reaper are taking about the long term problems....

What guarantees   the peace will last?

Not a damn thing, and that still doesn't justify the nihilistic attitude the catalyst has.  If war between synthetics and organics is not an absolute certainty then it invalidates his logic.
Right now, at this point in history, we've got enough nuclear weapons to wipe out all life on this planet with no guarantees it won't happen tomorrow....but it doesn't make it an inevitablity....nor is it a justification for wipping us all out.

As long asit's on the table, there's always a chance of it happening.

As long as peace is on the table, there's always a chance of it happening.

Peace is alway temporary.

[Gigamantis]

How exactly is he wrong? Starchild has apparently seen the cycle enough to be convinced it will happen and what proof do you have that it won't?

[GnusmasTHX]

Gigamantis wrote...

How exactly is he wrong? Starchild has apparently seen the cycle enough to be convinced it will happen and what proof do you have that it won't?

Actually he tells you it happens once to his people when he started the whole Reaping business.

So unless he fails and synthetics kill organics EVERY cycle before they come a reapin', then it should never have happened again if he's any good at his job.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 04 avril 2012 - 03:27 .

[billida]

no need for synthetics in a rebellion plot between creaters and creatures. You have this all along in the game, it is the same relations salarian have with Krogans, or Protheans with the rachni (just listen to javik). In these cases, they are uplifted, not created, but it is exactly the same result. protheans made the rachni evil, selected the most agressive, and then the spiders turned against them.

the so called synthetic/organic rivalry is not different.

[Maimh]

"They would. The fact that they are watching a level of life self extigish itself over and over again, would have that Machine race think that something is wrong with organics and wonder what would be the cause to that behavior.
Most of what the reapers are doing is just a case of differnet morlity from ours."

Different morals? Obviously, I actually kinda like that.
However from what we have been shown in the games, there is nothing that proves the Reapers right. There is no proof that it will happen, the catalyst does not give any proof beyond its words, and just because it is old, is does not automatically mean it is correct.

[dreman9999]

Maimh wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Op, your not understanding that the reaper are taking about the long term problems....

Oh I understand, but I reject the premise of his argument.

So your saying that a race of machines that are timeless that spent eons watching organic to the point that they could perdict there acting to the ponit of placeing mass relay in a way the  nearly every advance race can find it is wrong to say we are chaotic and cause are own distruction?

Do yourealise that we are constaly fight with ourselve. Hell, during the cold war we nearly blow are selves up 10 times over. And we cause drastict envirnmentle disasters. What if the reaper see the we as organics, by making synthetic , cause that level of distruction on a globle scale. That they what organics do this over and over again...
What it the fight between organic and synthetics get so drastic that it ends up as a pyrrhic victory.
A victorythatcome to a draw which no one can fight back after and every organic world is so destroyed that the organics can't survive it but he synhetic can .

First, could you please clean up your grammar and spelling? It makes it hard to follow your argument.

Now, as you say, it is correct taht humans are constantly fighting, and as the game has shown us, so does the different races. So why is it radically different when it you involve AI?
Yes, we could have destroyed humanity, yet here we are still here.
The Geth could have killed all Qurians, yet they let them leave.

I can see the Reapers come to a negatice deterministic conclusion that organics will destroy themselves.
However I find it problematic to see what is is they are trying to preserve.
Organic life is amazingly adaptive, even if we fired off all bombs in the world, there would still be bacteria, there would still be life in the sea.
The missions on Tuthunka clearly show us that life always finds a way. So why should the Reapers even bother? They do clearly not care for the individual cultures beyond their genetic material.

True, but your missing one detail....From what level of distruction did life find away. The krogan did recover but that was just an event they casued on their planet. What of something ona galactic scale? How far can the disaster reach? There really isn't a level of distuction and living being can reach. For all we know in a war with organicsvs synthetetis, both side could build weapon that can blow up systems, and from the arrival dlc we can see very clearly  that something like that can be done. What if in a war between  organics and synthetic, because of this weapon, it come to a level of the stand off the USA /USSR was, but on a galatic stage?

Modifié par dreman9999, 04 avril 2012 - 03:34 .

[dreman9999]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

How exactly is he wrong? Starchild has apparently seen the cycle enough to be convinced it will happen and what proof do you have that it won't?

Actually he tells you it happens once to his people when he started the whole Reaping business.

So unless he fails and synthetics kill organics EVERY cycle before they come a reapin', then it should never have happened again if he's any good at his job.

No he doesn't...He never takesabout the raper origins, just that the cycle happens.

[dreman9999]

esideras wrote...

The Geth did rebel, yes but It was due to self preservation. If the Quarians hadn't been such ****s they would never have rebeled.

That's the reapers point..

[dreman9999]

Maimh wrote...

"They would. The fact that they are watching a level of life self extigish itself over and over again, would have that Machine race think that something is wrong with organics and wonder what would be the cause to that behavior.
Most of what the reapers are doing is just a case of differnet morlity from ours."

Different morals? Obviously, I actually kinda like that.
However from what we have been shown in the games, there is nothing that proves the Reapers right. There is no proof that it will happen, the catalyst does not give any proof beyond its words, and just because it is old, is does not automatically mean it is correct.

Project overlord is an example.

[Tleining]

dreman9999 wrote...

True, but your missing one detail....From what level of distruction did life find away. The krogan did recover but that was just an event they casued on their planet. What of something ona galactic scale? How far can the disaster reach? There really isn't a level of distuction and living being can reach. For all we know in a war with organicsvs synthetetis, both side could build weapon that can blow up systems, and from the arrival dlc we can see very clearly  that something like that can be done. What if in a war between  organics and synthetic, because of this weapon, it come to a level of the stand off the USA /USSR was, but on a galatic stage?

The Batarians (Organics) were trying to destroy Terra Nova. Shepard (Organic) destroyed a System. A War between Organics and Synthetics can be just as devastating as a War between Organics and Organics.

[Gigamantis]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

How exactly is he wrong? Starchild has apparently seen the cycle enough to be convinced it will happen and what proof do you have that it won't?

Actually he tells you it happens once to his people when he started the whole Reaping business.

So unless he fails and synthetics kill organics EVERY cycle before they come a reapin', then it should never have happened again if he's any good at his job.

It's a cycle because organics will always build synthetic life and, at least by his estimation, synthetics will always turn on organics.  Then he cleanses and the cycle starts over.  The catalyst not being able to come up with a permanent or elegant solution isn't a plothole and doesn't make his theory wrong. 

[Sepharih]

dreman9999 wrote...
They would.  The fact that they are watching a level of life self extigish itself over and over again, would have that Machine race  think  that something is wrong with organics and wonder what  would be the cause to that  behavior.
Most of what the reapers are doing is just a case of differnet morlity from ours.

That's still stupid and nihilistic, but even if that was ultimately what their entire logic boiled down to it doesn't explain why they work so hard to preserve younger civilizations.

dreman9999 wrote...
Peace is alway temporary.

Life itself is temporary.

Gigamantis wrote...
How exactly is he wrong? Starchild has apparently seen the cycle enough to be convinced it will happen and what proof do you have that it won't?

 
Rannoch.

[Sepharih]

dreman9999 wrote...
Project overlord is an example. 

Wait....how is project overlord an example?

Modifié par Sepharih, 04 avril 2012 - 03:44 .