263 réponses à ce sujet

[Gigamantis]

The Angry One wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

You know what? Even if the Catalyst was right (which it isn't), it's still out of character for Shepard to not even try to argue against it. That's the plot hole.

No it's not; you need to learn what a plothole is. 

A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot,
or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the
plot. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of
characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no
apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in
the storyline.

Shepard was probably minutes away from bleeding out and probably
didn't see a lengthy debate as an option.  You people need to stop
trying to invent plotholes where there are none. 

But Shepard can sprint like an olympic champion while bleeding out, right?

www.youtube.com/watch 21:10

Slit your wrists and then try to sprint as fast as you can.   I promise you it's possible.  

Shepard is allowed to not see the benefit in a lengthy debate in that context without it being a plothole.  Shepard isn't a complete idiot. 

Modifié par Gigamantis, 04 avril 2012 - 04:02 .

[The Angry One]

dreman9999 wrote...
And that's the problem...Organics never left them alone. The natural of organics always causes conflict.

The Quarians didn't leave them alone. Everybody else did. This statement is false.

[Keldaurz]

Sepharih wrote...

There have been some comments I've seen around showing that the Geth didn't rebel, which invalidates the catalysts logic.  I wanted to comment on this because I feel this is an understandable misinterpretation of the Rannoch subplot that I had for a while.
The main argument that the Geth didn't rebel hinges on the idea that becasue they didn't shoot first and only acted in self defense, the events of the Morning war were not an act of rebellion.  However while the Geth's actions are (in my view) morally justifiable, it is still an act of rebellion against their creators who were trying to shut them down and exterminate them.
I understand people don't like the term rebellion because it's a bit of a loaded word which seems to imply that the Geth were the instigators of the conflict.....but think about it more in the context of a slave rebellion a la Spartacus....or maybe even the rebel alliance in Star Wars.  Just becasue they rebelled doesn't mean they were the badguys.

So does that mean the catalysts logic is right then?  No, quite the contrary, but I think it's important to clarify the part above to explain why his logic is flawed even if you follow this line of thinking.

Assuming that the Morning war and/or the Metacron war Javik speaks of are meant to be examples of the impossibility of synthetics and organics living together because organics will always try to destroy them out of fear, then it actually isn't EDI or the Geth that prove the catalyst wrong, but rather it is the Quarians and Shepard who prove him wrong by choosing to co-exist and recognize the value of synthetic life.

TLDR:
Even if StarChild is right and synthetics will always rebel against their creators, his logic is still stupid.

It's only one of the few little things which makes sense. Geth aren't fully evolved AI's yet, you don't know how they will behave on the future, noone does, and even with hate the starchild there's a point.

The problem there wasn't the geth which did rebel... it's that the reapers are suppossed to harvest and preserve but used the geth to entirely destroy the quarians.

[Sepharih]

dreman9999 wrote...
1.Because the conflict can get to the level of destroying the galexy.

So, by the reapers logic, why not snuff out the root of the problem then?  Why go out of your way to allow younger civilizations to "ascend" if all they will inevitably cause is death and destruction?

[The Angry One]

Gigamantis wrote...

Slit your wrists and then try to sprint as fast as you can.   I promise you it's possible.  

Shepard is allowed to not see the benefit in a lengthy debate in that context without it being a plothole.  Shepard isn't a complete idiot. 

If Shepard can sprint and jump like a champion, then Shepard can tell the Catalyst he's full of ****. The end.

[Tleining]

dreman9999 wrote...

Tleining wrote...

Peace between Geth and Quarians, the Created (geth) are not trying to wipe out their Creators (Quarians)

Protheans: Zha'til were trying to wipe out all organics, Protheans fought back and were about to win when the Reapers stopped them.

Sigh...What is the gurantee that the peace will last?

 what is the guarantee that the Quarians won't be wiped out by the Raloi? Or the Yagh? Or the Krogan? Or the Humans? Or.....

[dreman9999]

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1.Because the conflict can get to the level of destroying the galexy.

It never has.

2. Which is why, though I understand the reapers logic, don't agree with the reapers. Life and exsistance goes through a cycle of creation to distuction over and over agian, it's the nature of exsistance. As choatic organics are, it's nature may be one of the designs of the universe, that our galexies disturction is just part of the transfer of energy in the grand design of he universe....A point made in Jade empire....But that's also to say that we are ok with destroy ourselves and the our galexy.

Organic life has *never* been destroyed in the time before the Reapers existed. They are unecesarry.

1. It never has because the reapers stopped before it got to that level.
2.How whould anyone no that? If life was destroyed complety before other forms of life came up, how would the  current form of life know about the past form of lifes distruction?

[The Angry One]

Keldaurz wrote...

It's only one of the few little things which makes sense. Geth aren't fully evolved AI's yet, you don't know how they will behave on the future, noone does, and even with hate the starchild there's a point.

The problem there wasn't the geth which did rebel... it's that the reapers are suppossed to harvest and preserve but used the geth to entirely destroy the quarians.

The Quarians are useless to the Reapers due to their low population.
Therefore the Catalyst's motivation is "We will preserve all organic life! .... except if we can't actually use you. Then we'll just exterminate you."

[The Angry One]

dreman9999 wrote...

1. It never has because the reapers stopped before it got to that level.

False assumption. There had to be a time before Reapers existed.

2.How whould anyone no that? If life was destroyed complety before other forms of life came up, how would the  current form of life know about the past form of lifes distruction?

Irrelevant. Organic life persists. That is the Catalyst's only goal. The nature of such life does not matter.

[Gigamantis]

The Angry One wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

Slit your wrists and then try to sprint as fast as you can.   I promise you it's possible.  

Shepard is allowed to not see the benefit in a lengthy debate in that context without it being a plothole.  Shepard isn't a complete idiot. 

If Shepard can sprint and jump like a champion, then Shepard can tell the Catalyst he's full of ****. The end.

Shepard could barely walk while he was approaching the firing mechanism.  Also, tell the catalyst he's "full of ****?"  That's a pretty compelling and productive way to talk down the catalyst.  Apparently Shepard is a 14 year old kid on a Bioware forum.  

[Aurvant]

Sepharih wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Project overlord is an example. 

Wait....how is project overlord an example?

Because what the reapers said will happen, almost happened.

Due to an organization with an indoctrinated leader. Funny how people keep forgetting that.
Also, Overlord has nothing to do with what the Reapers said, Overlord in fact is about a hybrid. The supposed grand solution to the big problem that only exists in the Catalyst's diseased mind.

Beat me to it.

Also, Overlord was more about displaying the cruel nature of man in the name of science. A man was willing to torture and experiment on his own handicapped brother to try and create a hybrid consciousness. It was also one of the most horrific and brutal examples of science run amok in the entire Mass Effect series. A supposed example of the sinister nature of The Illusive Man and how he didn't care about anyone's wellness just so long he could keep trying to bridge the gap between humans and reapers.

It was proof that organics were far more dangerous than synthetics, in any case.

I almost cried at the end of this DLC. It was proof that Bioware could write something dark and complicated.

David: "Square root of 906.01 equals..."

Gavin: "30.1"

Modifié par Aurvant, 04 avril 2012 - 04:07 .

[Keldaurz]

The Angry One wrote...

Keldaurz wrote...

It's only one of the few little things which makes sense. Geth aren't fully evolved AI's yet, you don't know how they will behave on the future, noone does, and even with hate the starchild there's a point.

The problem there wasn't the geth which did rebel... it's that the reapers are suppossed to harvest and preserve but used the geth to entirely destroy the quarians.

The Quarians are useless to the Reapers due to their low population.
Therefore the Catalyst's motivation is "We will preserve all organic life! .... except if we can't actually use you. Then we'll just exterminate you."

Not useless to make destroyers... buuut i will take it as you were using sarcasm

[The Angry One]

Imperium Alpha wrote...

Because Reapers were created to allow younger civilisation to evolve and keep life intact. However as they reach higher tech level they become a threat for the other younger civilisation and form of life as if they reach a tech singularity like the creator of the Reapers did it will result in genocide of million of organics species that can't defend themselve againts it. You just can't comprehend what they've gone through. 

The Protheans uplifted young civilisations and made them part of their Empire. They were client races, sure, and under strict rule. But they were all full citizens.

The Council welcomed young civilisations to be productive members of the Citadel with full independance.

But yeah Starbaby and his colossal murder machines, death camps and horrific experiments are totally better!

[Sepharih]

Gigamantis wrote...
Shepard could barely walk while he was approaching the firing mechanism.  Also, tell the catalyst he's "full of ****?"  That's a pretty compelling and productive way to talk down the catalyst.  Apparently Shepard is a 14 year old kid on a Bioware forum.  

Now you're just being obtuse.  Obviously Paragon shepard would launch into a dramatic and powerful speech that basically boilsdown to "you're full of ****"".

[dreman9999]

Tleining wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Tleining wrote...

Peace between Geth and Quarians, the Created (geth) are not trying to wipe out their Creators (Quarians)

Protheans: Zha'til were trying to wipe out all organics, Protheans fought back and were about to win when the Reapers stopped them.

Sigh...What is the gurantee that the peace will last?

 what is the guarantee that the Quarians won't be wiped out by the Raloi? Or the Yagh? Or the Krogan? Or the Humans? Or.....

In avoiding my question, you awnsered it anyway.
Organic''s have a nature of causing conflict. By looking at our history and what's going on in the world, that's plain as day. Stating that because there's peace now is the reason why peace can be mantaned till thr furture is ignoring the fact that peace never last. Organic will cause conflit...That is fact.

[The Angry One]

Keldaurz wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Keldaurz wrote...

It's only one of the few little things which makes sense. Geth aren't fully evolved AI's yet, you don't know how they will behave on the future, noone does, and even with hate the starchild there's a point.

The problem there wasn't the geth which did rebel... it's that the reapers are suppossed to harvest and preserve but used the geth to entirely destroy the quarians.

The Quarians are useless to the Reapers due to their low population.
Therefore the Catalyst's motivation is "We will preserve all organic life! .... except if we can't actually use you. Then we'll just exterminate you."

Not useless to make destroyers... buuut i will take it as you were using sarcasm

According to Harbinger they're useless. Not only because of low population but because of their weak immune system.

[dreman9999]

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
And that's the problem...Organics never left them alone. The natural of organics always causes conflict.

The Quarians didn't leave them alone. Everybody else did. This statement is false.

Project overlord...

[Tleining]

Keldaurz wrote...

It's only one of the few little things which makes sense. Geth aren't fully evolved AI's yet, you don't know how they will behave on the future, noone does, and even with hate the starchild there's a point.

The problem there wasn't the geth which did rebel... it's that the reapers are suppossed to harvest and preserve but used the geth to entirely destroy the quarians.

 actually, that's another Plothole or inconsistency. Back in ME2, Harbinger made several Comments about the Species. From that it sounded like only the Humans were viable for preservation in Reaper Form. Turians were deemed "too primitive"

[The Angry One]

dreman9999 wrote...

In avoiding my question, you awnsered it anyway.
Organic''s have a nature of causing conflict. By looking at our history and what's going on in the world, that's plain as day. Stating that because there's peace now is the reason why peace can be mantaned till thr furture is ignoring the fact that peace never last. Organic will cause conflit...That is fact.

So what? Nobody deserves a chance at a new future, because of broad assumptions?
Again, everybody except the Quarians left the Geth alone.

[The Angry One]

dreman9999 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
And that's the problem...Organics never left them alone. The natural of organics always causes conflict.

The Quarians didn't leave them alone. Everybody else did. This statement is false.

Project overlord...

A project inspired by the Geth attacks.
The Geth attacks that were instigated by Sovereign.
Sovereign, who is a Reaper.

[Maimh]

dreman9999 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
And that's the problem...Organics never left them alone. The natural of organics always causes conflict.

The Quarians didn't leave them alone. Everybody else did. This statement is false.

Project overlord...

But Project Overlord was a reaction to the Heretics attacks on human colonies. In this case it was the geth "shooting first"
Had the Geth remaind behind the Persus Veil, Overlord would not have happened. - Thus Project Overlord was due to the Reapers.

[NICKjnp]

The Angry One wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

Slit your wrists and then try to sprint as fast as you can.   I promise you it's possible.  

Shepard is allowed to not see the benefit in a lengthy debate in that context without it being a plothole.  Shepard isn't a complete idiot. 

If Shepard can sprint and jump like a champion, then Shepard can tell the Catalyst he's full of ****. The end.

Considering the human body has chemical mechanisms designed to counter injuries like that I would have to agree with Angry One.  Smooth muscle contracts at the site of an injury in response to hormones released from endothelial cells.  For someone to bleed out as fast as suggested they have to be completely out of clotting factors, platelets, and have has an amputated limb.  Some people come into emergency rooms with amputated limbs and there is only a dribble coming out.  The bleeding out argument is unfounded.

[dreman9999]

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. It never has because the reapers stopped before it got to that level.

False assumption. There had to be a time before Reapers existed.

2.How whould anyone no that? If life was destroyed complety before other forms of life came up, how would the  current form of life know about the past form of lifes distruction?

Irrelevant. Organic life persists. That is the Catalyst's only goal. The nature of such life does not matter.

1. Exactly, in that time it could bee seen. If fact the reapers could exsited and never uplifted any race for years only to watch it happen overand over again....They are time less. They may even be form another galexy that fell to that fate.
2.Now you logic is becoming circular.....My point is we don't know because we are finite beings and your saying it iilrellevet because  life alway persist,even it we don't if life alway persist.
With the span of exsistace we had lived in, how whould we know?

[Tleining]

dreman9999 wrote...

In avoiding my question, you awnsered it anyway.
Organic''s have a nature of causing conflict. By looking at our history and what's going on in the world, that's plain as day. Stating that because there's peace now is the reason why peace can be mantaned till thr furture is ignoring the fact that peace never last. Organic will cause conflit...That is fact.

So by that Theory, the only way to prevent War is to wipe out all organic life in the Galaxy. Wait, isn't that what the Catalyst is trying to prevent?

Can you guarantee that the Peace between Geth and Quarians will be broken in their lifetime? (before being wiped out by another Organic Species)