263 réponses à ce sujet

[Gigamantis]

Sepharih wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...
Shepard could barely walk while he was approaching the firing mechanism.  Also, tell the catalyst he's "full of ****?"  That's a pretty compelling and productive way to talk down the catalyst.  Apparently Shepard is a 14 year old kid on a Bioware forum.  

Now you're just being obtuse.  Obviously Paragon shepard would launch into a dramatic and powerful speech that basically boilsdown to "you're full of ****"".

Again, close to bleeding to death, could barely move.  Only moron Shepard would bleed to death half way through a heartfelt speech while the solution was in walking distance.

Why can you people not comprehend any action that isn't basically a stereotypical charicature of heroism of villainy. 

[dreman9999]

Maimh wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
And that's the problem...Organics never left them alone. The natural of organics always causes conflict.

The Quarians didn't leave them alone. Everybody else did. This statement is false.

Project overlord...

But Project Overlord was a reaction to the Heretics attacks on human colonies. In this case it was the geth "shooting first"
Had the Geth remaind behind the Persus Veil, Overlord would not have happened. - Thus Project Overlord was due to the Reapers.

But it was stillthe quarians treatment of the geth that had an influces onthe geth to do that. You can go on and say the reapers were also an influnce, but at the same time, the quarians would never exsisted if their where no reapers. None of the current races would.

Regardless, organic nature still causes conflict.

[Sepharih]

Gigamantis wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...
Shepard could barely walk while he was approaching the firing mechanism.  Also, tell the catalyst he's "full of ****?"  That's a pretty compelling and productive way to talk down the catalyst.  Apparently Shepard is a 14 year old kid on a Bioware forum.  

Now you're just being obtuse.  Obviously Paragon shepard would launch into a dramatic and powerful speech that basically boilsdown to "you're full of ****"".

Again, close to bleeding to death, could barely move.  Only moron Shepard would bleed to death half way through a heartfelt speech while the solution was in walking distance.

Why can you people not comprehend any action that isn't basically a stereotypical charicature of heroism of villainy. 

Because it's a fictional story about heroisim.

Edit:
More specifically, this is supposed to be the CLIMAX of a fictional story about heroisim.

Modifié par Sepharih, 04 avril 2012 - 04:23 .

[The Angry One]

dreman9999 wrote...
1. Exactly, in that time it could bee seen. If fact the reapers could exsited and never uplifted any race for years only to watch it happen overand over again....They are time less. They may even be form another galexy that fell to that fate.

Speculations.

2.Now you logic is becoming circular.....My point is we don't know because we are finite beings and your saying it iilrellevet because  life alway persist,even it we don't if life alway persist.
With the span of exsistace we had lived in, how whould we know?

I'm saying life will persist, because it has persisted. Organic life persisted before the Reapers.
If even one plant on one planet survives, then organic life persists. The Catalyst's theory is impossible to prove and easily disprovable.

[The Angry One]

Gigamantis wrote...
Again, close to bleeding to death, could barely move.  Only moron Shepard would bleed to death half way through a heartfelt speech while the solution was in walking distance.

Why can you people not comprehend any action that isn't basically a stereotypical charicature of heroism of villainy. 

I do not comprehend an action that goes against the persona of Commander Shepard entirely.
Commander Shepard could have all four limbs chopped off and still try to bite you.
What we saw in the ending was not Commander Shepard. It was Saren.

"Is not submission preferable to extinction?"

[dreman9999]

Tleining wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

In avoiding my question, you awnsered it anyway.
Organic''s have a nature of causing conflict. By looking at our history and what's going on in the world, that's plain as day. Stating that because there's peace now is the reason why peace can be mantaned till thr furture is ignoring the fact that peace never last. Organic will cause conflit...That is fact.

So by that Theory, the only way to prevent War is to wipe out all organic life in the Galaxy. Wait, isn't that what the Catalyst is trying to prevent?

Can you guarantee that the Peace between Geth and Quarians will be broken in their lifetime? (before being wiped out by another Organic Species)

 1.What the catylist wants to do is change our form of life so conflict won't be our nature. I don't agree, I want to keep my sense of self.

2.No one can, but that's not he reapers point. The point is based on the long term.

[JShepppp]

OP, with respect, I think you're not getting the point of what the Catalyst is saying.

Sepharih wrote...

Assuming that the Morning war and/or the Metacron war Javik speaks of are meant to be examples of the impossibility of synthetics and organics living together because organics will always try to destroy them out of fear, then it actually isn't EDI or the Geth that prove the catalyst wrong, but rather it is the Quarians and Shepard who prove him wrong by choosing to co-exist and recognize the value of synthetic life.

TLDR:
Even if StarChild is right and synthetics will always rebel against their creators, his logic is still stupid.

Geth/Quarians and Joker/EDI actually can be seen as helping the Catalyst's reasoning. Part of the Catalyst's logic hinges on the idea that war and peace are not eternal; hence, there are cycles of war and peace. We have only seen war/animosity before; these situations show that peace is also an option. But clearly peace is not the only option because we have seen war. Hence we can infer that war and peace are part of some weird cycle. 

The Catalyst accepts war is not a certainty but a possibility and that peace is not a certainty but a possibility. This implies that, in the long run, as all probabilities will eventually be realized after enough time, we will go through cycles of war and peace. 

The Catalyst is trying to stop a technological singularity. By definition, any war after the singularity will be won by synthetics. Organics will never be able to catch up in terms of evolution and advancement.

The Catalyst assumes that since there will be repeated cycles of war and peace, eventually the synthetics will choose to end the cycle by realizing peace is only temporary and will exterminate all organics. Time is irrelevant here. Any point after the singularity means organics will be forever inferior.

I'm not going to bore anyone reading this with a long thing explaining the Catalyst's logic; see my sig for a place where I do that. I'm not saying I agree with the Catalyst; it obviously makes some leaps that can be questioned. 

But the Catalyst is NOT just "killing organics with synthetics to stop them being wiped out by synthetics" and the problem is NOT just "the created will always rebel against the creators". You have to look at the idea of a technological singularity, which renders the problems entirely in a different light. Before the singularity, there is a nonzero probability organics will be superior and/or win any conflict. After the singularity, there is a zero probability organics will ever win. 

War and peace will come and go. Repeated cycles, after enough time, the Catalyst assumes, will lead to organics' demise after the singularity. 

[The Angry One]

dreman9999 wrote...
But it was stillthe quarians treatment of the geth that had an influces onthe geth to do that. You can go on and say the reapers were also an influnce, but at the same time, the quarians would never exsisted if their where no reapers. None of the current races would.

Regardless, organic nature still causes conflict.

No, it was Sovereign essentially controlling them. They even show signs of indoctrination-type behaviour.
They worship Sovereign as a god, despite the fact that normal Geth have no concept of such a thing.

[Sepharih]

The Angry One wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...
Again, close to bleeding to death, could barely move.  Only moron Shepard would bleed to death half way through a heartfelt speech while the solution was in walking distance.

Why can you people not comprehend any action that isn't basically a stereotypical charicature of heroism of villainy. 

I do not comprehend an action that goes against the persona of Commander Shepard entirely.
Commander Shepard could have all four limbs chopped off and still try to bite you.
What we saw in the ending was not Commander Shepard. It was Saren.

"Is not submission preferable to extinction?"

Exactly....if your hero blinks at the moment of truth then you have to at least appreciate that it weakens the climax of your story.

[The Angry One]

dreman9999 wrote...

 1.What the catylist wants to do is change our form of life so conflict won't be our nature. I don't agree, I want to keep my sense of self.

Synthesis won't change that anyway, the Catalyst is wrong. Again.

2.No one can, but that's not he reapers point. The point is based on the long term.

You can use the unknowable long term to justify anything. That isn't an argument.

[Gigamantis]

Sepharih wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...
Shepard could barely walk while he was approaching the firing mechanism.  Also, tell the catalyst he's "full of ****?"  That's a pretty compelling and productive way to talk down the catalyst.  Apparently Shepard is a 14 year old kid on a Bioware forum.  

Now you're just being obtuse.  Obviously Paragon shepard would launch into a dramatic and powerful speech that basically boilsdown to "you're full of ****"".

Again, close to bleeding to death, could barely move.  Only moron Shepard would bleed to death half way through a heartfelt speech while the solution was in walking distance.

Why can you people not comprehend any action that isn't basically a stereotypical charicature of heroism of villainy. 

Because it's a fictional story about heroisim.

Edit:
More specifically, this is supposed to be the CLIMAX of a fictional story about heroisim.

So what?  I'll repeat, stopping at that point to give a speech would've been the stupidest thing he possibly could've done.  Shepard's character isn't allowed to have any critical thinking skills because it's a "story about heroism?":

[JShepppp]

dreman9999 wrote...

Tleining wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

In avoiding my question, you awnsered it anyway.
Organic''s have a nature of causing conflict. By looking at our history and what's going on in the world, that's plain as day. Stating that because there's peace now is the reason why peace can be mantaned till thr furture is ignoring the fact that peace never last. Organic will cause conflit...That is fact.

So by that Theory, the only way to prevent War is to wipe out all organic life in the Galaxy. Wait, isn't that what the Catalyst is trying to prevent?

Can you guarantee that the Peace between Geth and Quarians will be broken in their lifetime? (before being wiped out by another Organic Species)

 1.What the catylist wants to do is change our form of life so conflict won't be our nature. I don't agree, I want to keep my sense of self.

2.No one can, but that's not he reapers point. The point is based on the long term.

I think from the Catalyst's point of view, the idea of who starts the war is irrelevant. The idea is that war and peace come and go in cycles. After the singularity, synthetics will always win regardless of who starts. Catalyst then assumes the repeated wars will lead to organics' demise in some way or form. 

It is indeed a long term point of view as dreman999 is saying. After the singularity, time is pretty much irrelevant. It may be 100 or a million years or more, but organics will always be inferior by defintion and synthetics will win all conflicts. War and peace are never eternal. Synthetics will just end the cycle, realizing peace is only temporary, by eradicating organics. 

Modifié par JShepppp, 04 avril 2012 - 04:28 .

[The Angry One]

Gigamantis wrote...

So what?  I'll repeat, stopping at that point to give a speech would've been the stupidest thing he possibly could've done.  Shepard's character isn't allowed to have any critical thinking skills because it's a "story about heroism?":

WHAT CRITICAL THINKING?
Critical thinking is the one thing Shepard does NOT display!
Stop trying to justify Shepard's sudden onset of stupidity by the fact that they were bleeding out.

They still have the strength to shoot a propane tank with a Carnifex (a heavy pistol with a strong recoil).
They still have the strength to play the electrocute me Reaper arcade.
They still have the strength to sprint and jump like a star athelete into the disintegrat-O-beam.

Shepard can do that, but not stop for one minute and poke holes in the Catalyst's heavily flawed argument, as Shepard has always done before?

Baloney.

Modifié par The Angry One, 04 avril 2012 - 04:28 .

[dreman9999]

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1. Exactly, in that time it could bee seen. If fact the reapers could exsited and never uplifted any race for years only to watch it happen overand over again....They are time less. They may even be form another galexy that fell to that fate.

Speculations.

2.Now you logic is becoming circular.....My point is we don't know because we are finite beings and your saying it iilrellevet because  life alway persist,even it we don't if life alway persist.
With the span of exsistace we had lived in, how whould we know?

I'm saying life will persist, because it has persisted. Organic life persisted before the Reapers.
If even one plant on one planet survives, then organic life persists. The Catalyst's theory is impossible to prove and easily disprovable.

1. They are timeless machines....Their origins can be anything
2.But we still don't know that. We only been in exsistace breifly. If that were the cause there would be life all over this solar system. The theory on life is that it exsist in places that gives it a chance to exsist. What don't know the varible of how many places in exsistance allows the chance of life exsisting.

[Gigamantis]

The Angry One wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...
Again, close to bleeding to death, could barely move.  Only moron Shepard would bleed to death half way through a heartfelt speech while the solution was in walking distance.

Why can you people not comprehend any action that isn't basically a stereotypical charicature of heroism of villainy. 

I do not comprehend an action that goes against the persona of Commander Shepard entirely.
Commander Shepard could have all four limbs chopped off and still try to bite you.
What we saw in the ending was not Commander Shepard. It was Saren.

"Is not submission preferable to extinction?"

So, Commander Shepard is the type of person who would rather bleed to death on a soap box than make any kind of compromise to stop the reapers?  Well, YOUR Commander Shepard isn't a hero, he's an idiot. 

The Shepard I witnessed, even in Paragon, knew when to cut his losses in certain situations.  He didn't exactly jump off the cliff after Tali, and he left earth behind to seek help elsewhere without much argument. 

Modifié par Gigamantis, 04 avril 2012 - 04:32 .

[The Angry One]

dreman9999 wrote...
1. They are timeless machines....Their origins can be anything

Lots of speculations from everyone.

2.But we still don't know that. We only been in exsistace breifly. If that were the cause there would be life all over this solar system. The theory on life is that it exsist in places that gives it a chance to exsist. What don't know the varible of how many places in exsistance allows the chance of life exsisting.

Er, so?

[redbaron76]

When you try to change status quo it is called rebellion. Geth are not rebel they are revolutionaries. A succesfull rebelion is called revolution, and since geth won the morning war, it will be revolution. And rebellion in self defence is still rebellion.

[The Angry One]

Gigamantis wrote...

So, Commander Shepard is they type of person who would rather bleed to death on a soap box than make any kind of compromise to stop the reapers?  Well, YOUR Commander Shepard isn't a hero, he's an idiot. 

My Commander Shepard will not give into a genocidal maniac, no matter what the odds.
If yours would so easily, then yours is nothing but a weak minded accomplice to mass murder.

The Shepard I witnessed, even in Paragon, knew when to cut his losses in certain situations.  He didn't exactly jump off the cliff after Tali, and he left earth behind to seek help elsewhere without much argument. 

Shepard still tried to save Tali. She doesn't go "oh well that's Tali's decision ho hum".
There's a difference between "cutting losses" and "surrendering to the Reapers without a fight".

[dreman9999]

JShepppp wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Tleining wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

In avoiding my question, you awnsered it anyway.
Organic''s have a nature of causing conflict. By looking at our history and what's going on in the world, that's plain as day. Stating that because there's peace now is the reason why peace can be mantaned till thr furture is ignoring the fact that peace never last. Organic will cause conflit...That is fact.

So by that Theory, the only way to prevent War is to wipe out all organic life in the Galaxy. Wait, isn't that what the Catalyst is trying to prevent?

Can you guarantee that the Peace between Geth and Quarians will be broken in their lifetime? (before being wiped out by another Organic Species)

 1.What the catylist wants to do is change our form of life so conflict won't be our nature. I don't agree, I want to keep my sense of self.

2.No one can, but that's not he reapers point. The point is based on the long term.

I think from the Catalyst's point of view, the idea of who starts the war is irrelevant. The idea is that war and peace come and go in cycles. After the singularity, synthetics will always win regardless of who starts. Catalyst then assumes the repeated wars will lead to organics' demise in some way or form. 

It is indeed a long term point of view as dreman999 is saying. After the singularity, time is pretty much irrelevant. It may be 100 or a million years or more, but organics will always be inferior by defintion and synthetics will win all conflicts. War and peace are never eternal. Synthetics will just end the cycle, realizing peace is only temporary, by eradicating organics. 

Or the victory that happen at the end of the war would be a pyrrhic victory and come to a draw and the planet's the remain organics have woul not be able to support them and the organic life die's off any way.

[dreman9999]

The Angry One wrote...

2.But we still don't know that. We only been in exsistace breifly. If that were the cause there would be life all over this solar system. The theory on life is that it exsist in places that gives it a chance to exsist. What don't know the varible of how many places in exsistance allows the chance of life exsisting.

Er, so?

It means you don't know.

Modifié par dreman9999, 04 avril 2012 - 04:34 .

[Gigamantis]

The Angry One wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

So, Commander Shepard is they type of person who would rather bleed to death on a soap box than make any kind of compromise to stop the reapers?  Well, YOUR Commander Shepard isn't a hero, he's an idiot. 

My Commander Shepard will not give into a genocidal maniac, no matter what the odds.
If yours would so easily, then yours is nothing but a weak minded accomplice to mass murder.

The Shepard I witnessed, even in Paragon, knew when to cut his losses in certain situations.  He didn't exactly jump off the cliff after Tali, and he left earth behind to seek help elsewhere without much argument. 

Shepard still tried to save Tali. She doesn't go "oh well that's Tali's decision ho hum".
There's a difference between "cutting losses" and "surrendering to the Reapers without a fight".

He surrendered earth to the reapers right at the beginning and the crucible was his only option to stop the reapers.  The fact that your Shepard would sit there begging the catalyst to change his mind until he bleeds to death isn't very admirable or heroic.  It's avoiding making a tough decision and letting the reapers destroy everything.  That would be the coward option. 

Modifié par Gigamantis, 04 avril 2012 - 04:37 .

[Yakko77]

2papercuts wrote...

Also his reapers are synthetics and haven't tried to kill all organics, proving his theory inaccurate

True.  They selectively harvest those that use ME technology.  I believe hackett specificially mentions that the Reapers are sidestepping the Yahg homeworld as they're not advanced to the point of ME tech.

[dreman9999]

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

 1.What the catylist wants to do is change our form of life so conflict won't be our nature. I don't agree, I want to keep my sense of self.

Synthesis won't change that anyway, the Catalyst is wrong. Again.

2.No one can, but that's not he reapers point. The point is based on the long term.

You can use the unknowable long term to justify anything. That isn't an argument.

1. Reaper=Synthesis ...They were already doing it.
2.But the reaper can because they seen it. They're timeless mcahines

Modifié par dreman9999, 04 avril 2012 - 04:37 .

[The Angry One]

dreman9999 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

2.But we still don't know that. We only been in exsistace breifly. If that were the cause there would be life all over this solar system. The theory on life is that it exsist in places that gives it a chance to exsist. What don't know the varible of how many places in exsistance allows the chance of life exsisting.

Er, so?

It means you don't know.

Neither do you.
Neither does the Catalyst.

[Tleining]

dreman9999 wrote...

Tleining wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

In avoiding my question, you awnsered it anyway.
Organic''s have a nature of causing conflict. By looking at our history and what's going on in the world, that's plain as day. Stating that because there's peace now is the reason why peace can be mantaned till thr furture is ignoring the fact that peace never last. Organic will cause conflit...That is fact.

So by that Theory, the only way to prevent War is to wipe out all organic life in the Galaxy. Wait, isn't that what the Catalyst is trying to prevent?

Can you guarantee that the Peace between Geth and Quarians will be broken in their lifetime? (before being wiped out by another Organic Species)

 1.What the catylist wants to do is change our form of life so conflict won't be our nature. I don't agree, I want to keep my sense of self.

2.No one can, but that's not he reapers point. The point is based on the long term.

1.) No! What the Catalyst wants is to preserve us in Reaper Form so that we can assist in the Cycles. Once that solution doesn't work anymore we start a new Experiment. Yay

2.) Long Term? The Reapers prevent Synthetics from killing Organics. That's it. They don't care if Organics kill Organics. Krogan wipe out Rachni? No Problem. Krogan start a War with Rest of Galaxy? Have fun. Salarians almost wipe out Krogan? Fine. Humans and Batarians try to wipe each other out? Go right ahead. Synthetics killing Organics? INTERVENTION

Honestly, the Krogan turned their World and several Garden Worlds into deserts. How many Organic Species were anihilated by that? But God forbid a Synthetic Species would be doing that.