263 réponses à ce sujet

[vyvexthorne]

There were creators that didn't want the geth shut down and fought for the geth. In one of the "memories" we see it clearly shows a geth stating something like.. "I will let them destroy me to save you." It's the last memory or one close to the last memory. To me that seems like the rebellion was started by the two factions of quariens .. not the geth.

[Sepharih]

Gigamantis wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...
Shepard could barely walk while he was approaching the firing mechanism.  Also, tell the catalyst he's "full of ****?"  That's a pretty compelling and productive way to talk down the catalyst.  Apparently Shepard is a 14 year old kid on a Bioware forum.  

Now you're just being obtuse.  Obviously Paragon shepard would launch into a dramatic and powerful speech that basically boilsdown to "you're full of ****"".

Again, close to bleeding to death, could barely move.  Only moron Shepard would bleed to death half way through a heartfelt speech while the solution was in walking distance.

Why can you people not comprehend any action that isn't basically a stereotypical charicature of heroism of villainy. 

Because it's a fictional story about heroisim.

Edit:
More specifically, this is supposed to be the CLIMAX of a fictional story about heroisim.

So what?  I'll repeat, stopping at that point to give a speech would've been the stupidest thing he possibly could've done.  Shepard's character isn't allowed to have any critical thinking skills because it's a "story about heroism?":

Well first we'll put aside that my Shepard's "criticial thinking skills" would have led him to the conclusion that "This little **** is full of it, I've seen evidence to the contrary, and he's clearly taking this form to manipulate me, no way I'm playing his games".
You can call it stupid, but guess what; that's what paragon shepard does in these situations.  The point is, he wouldn't have accepted this inevitable fate either way considering he/she has been fighting against the very idea for 3 games.
If giving a speech is too cliche for you then there's the renegade alternative which is a simple "**** you."

[The Angry One]

Gigamantis wrote...

He surrendered earth to the reapers right at the beginning and the crucible was his only option to stop the reapers.  The fact that your Shepard would sit there begging the catalyst to change his mind until he bleeds to death isn't very admirable or heroic.  It's avoiding making a tough decision and letting the reapers destroy everything.  That would be the coward option. 

Again, you don't know the difference between cutting losses and outright surrender.
Picking a colour is not a tough decision, in all 3 cases the Reapers win, but are neutralised and the galaxy is doomed. It is the quick, easy way out.

It is TIM's way out.
It is Saren's way out.
It is the coward's way out.

By your logic, Shepard would've never opposed Sovereign. Never done the suicide mission.
Never achieved peace between the Geth and Quarians. Can't win, don't try.

[dreman9999]

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

2.But we still don't know that. We only been in exsistace breifly. If that were the cause there would be life all over this solar system. The theory on life is that it exsist in places that gives it a chance to exsist. What don't know the varible of how many places in exsistance allows the chance of life exsisting.

Er, so?

It means you don't know.

Neither do you.
Neither does the Catalyst.

The catalyst is a timeless machine.... It has way more capabiltes of being able to know then we, who just live up to 100 years at most,  do.
All it can do is sit for eons and watch.

[The Angry One]

dreman9999 wrote...
The catalyst is a timeless machine.... It has way more capabiltes of being able to know then we, who just live up to 100 years at most,  do.
All it can do is sit for eons and watch.

And yet said timeless machine has not one grain of proof for it's ridiculous assertions.
It has in fact been engaging in a self-fulfilling prophecy for billions of years. It could just not know any better.

Modifié par The Angry One, 04 avril 2012 - 04:43 .

[dreman9999]

Tleining wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Tleining wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

In avoiding my question, you awnsered it anyway.
Organic''s have a nature of causing conflict. By looking at our history and what's going on in the world, that's plain as day. Stating that because there's peace now is the reason why peace can be mantaned till thr furture is ignoring the fact that peace never last. Organic will cause conflit...That is fact.

So by that Theory, the only way to prevent War is to wipe out all organic life in the Galaxy. Wait, isn't that what the Catalyst is trying to prevent?

Can you guarantee that the Peace between Geth and Quarians will be broken in their lifetime? (before being wiped out by another Organic Species)

 1.What the catylist wants to do is change our form of life so conflict won't be our nature. I don't agree, I want to keep my sense of self.

2.No one can, but that's not he reapers point. The point is based on the long term.

1.) No! What the Catalyst wants is to preserve us in Reaper Form so that we can assist in the Cycles. Once that solution doesn't work anymore we start a new Experiment. Yay

2.) Long Term? The Reapers prevent Synthetics from killing Organics. That's it. They don't care if Organics kill Organics. Krogan wipe out Rachni? No Problem. Krogan start a War with Rest of Galaxy? Have fun. Salarians almost wipe out Krogan? Fine. Humans and Batarians try to wipe each other out? Go right ahead. Synthetics killing Organics? INTERVENTION

Honestly, the Krogan turned their World and several Garden Worlds into deserts. How many Organic Species were anihilated by that? But God forbid a Synthetic Species would be doing that.

1. That still is the same thing.
2.Bad examples, every exampe your using was at the time they lost control of the ciadel. If they want edti intervene, they couldn't...In fact, the rachni war was the reapers intervening.

[The Angry One]

The Rachni wars are actually an example of Reaper irony at work.

Galaxy at peace. Citadel council run by the Asari and Salarians brings order.
Reaper instigates Rachni wars, leading to Krogan rebellions, both massive, destructive, chaotic wars.

Started by a Reaper.

[Gigamantis]

The Angry One wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

He surrendered earth to the reapers right at the beginning and the crucible was his only option to stop the reapers.  The fact that your Shepard would sit there begging the catalyst to change his mind until he bleeds to death isn't very admirable or heroic.  It's avoiding making a tough decision and letting the reapers destroy everything.  That would be the coward option. 

Again, you don't know the difference between cutting losses and outright surrender.
Picking a colour is not a tough decision, in all 3 cases the Reapers win, but are neutralised and the galaxy is doomed. It is the quick, easy way out.

It is TIM's way out.
It is Saren's way out.
It is the coward's way out.

By your logic, Shepard would've never opposed Sovereign. Never done the suicide mission.
Never achieved peace between the Geth and Quarians. Can't win, don't try.

The galaxy wasn't doomed in any instance, it just had to start over.  Using the crucible still left survivors and saved what little they could of the galaxy.  Your option to just whine at the catalyst until you die from blood loss makes no sense.   If Shepard had just sat there, done nothing and died while the reapers destroyed everything that would've been horribly out of character.

I know how your mind works, but this wasn't a situation where Shepard could blast the problem a way like a badass and make a harrowing escape.  He realized, like you should have, that there was NO OTHER WAY.  He didn't have to surrender to Sovereign or skip the suicide mission but HE HAD TO USE THE CRUCIBLE.  That's it, there was nothing else.  Chatting up the catalyst until you die is the same as doing nothing; Shepard may as well have just stayed home if that was going to be his plan.  

[dreman9999]

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
The catalyst is a timeless machine.... It has way more capabiltes of being able to know then we, who just live up to 100 years at most,  do.
All it can do is sit for eons and watch.

And yet said timeless machine has not one grain of proof for it's ridiculous assertions.
It has in fact been engaging in a self-fulfilling prophecy for billions of years. It could just not know any better.

It''s  clear the reapers have been watching organics for years by the place ment of the mass relays and the fact that theyare used to draw out organic life to a trap.
And also, it clear that the reaper don't want to debate this with us by the fact they are forcing their judgement on to use. This is the thing I don't like about the reapers point.

They clearly see, but the clearly don't want to explain. They think little of us.

[Tleining]

@ dreman9999

1.) O_O So Conflict wasn't in the Nature of Harbinger and Sovereign? The Reapers are Weapons, they wipe out all Spacefaring Civilizations and Harvest some of them to assist in the Cycle. There is nothing Peaceful about that.

2.) If we go by that Theory: There weren't any Wars before the Rachi War (at least not according to the lore), so the Reapers were trying to kill a peaceful society. Oh yes, very good.
Also: We only think that Sovereign used the Rachni, there is no proof for that. For all we know, Sovereigns mere existence in the Rachni-System could have influenced them.

How about you give us ONE example were the Reapers prevented Organics from being wiped out by Synthetics?

Modifié par Tleining, 04 avril 2012 - 04:54 .

[dreman9999]

The Angry One wrote...

The Rachni wars are actually an example of Reaper irony at work.

Galaxy at peace. Citadel council run by the Asari and Salarians brings order.
Reaper instigates Rachni wars, leading to Krogan rebellions, both massive, destructive, chaotic wars.

Started by a Reaper.

It a case of double effect. It a logic born from the idea that anything can be better then the worst case senario.

[NICKjnp]

Gigamantis wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

So, Commander Shepard is they type of person who would rather bleed to death on a soap box than make any kind of compromise to stop the reapers?  Well, YOUR Commander Shepard isn't a hero, he's an idiot. 

My Commander Shepard will not give into a genocidal maniac, no matter what the odds.
If yours would so easily, then yours is nothing but a weak minded accomplice to mass murder.

The Shepard I witnessed, even in Paragon, knew when to cut his losses in certain situations.  He didn't exactly jump off the cliff after Tali, and he left earth behind to seek help elsewhere without much argument. 

Shepard still tried to save Tali. She doesn't go "oh well that's Tali's decision ho hum".
There's a difference between "cutting losses" and "surrendering to the Reapers without a fight".

He surrendered earth to the reapers right at the beginning and the crucible was his only option to stop the reapers.  The fact that your Shepard would sit there begging the catalyst to change his mind until he bleeds to death isn't very admirable or heroic.  It's avoiding making a tough decision and letting the reapers destroy everything.  That would be the coward option. 

None of Shepard's wounds were critical enough that he would bleed to death.  In order for someone to bleed to death in the fasion you are suggesting they have to be depleted of clotting factors and platelets, have a clotting factor disorder, and have an amputation or severed carotid artery.  So unless all those have happened the bleeding to death argument is false.  If you were refering to his injury in his abdomen...those don't kill you from blood loss (that only happens in movies).  People die from bacterial infection from stomach wounds and those take several hours to days.  Shepard was limping because he was bruised...not because of blood loss.

And Anderson's death has the same problem with the ending as the whole...it all melts together.  They didn't want him up there when you talked with the Catalyst so they just killed him off regardless if TIM killed him or if he magically dies saying how proud he was of you.

Modifié par NICKjnp, 04 avril 2012 - 04:57 .

[The Angry One]

Gigamantis wrote...

The galaxy wasn't doomed in any instance, it just had to start over.  Using the crucible still left survivors and saved what little they could of the galaxy. 

You have no concept of what "starting over" means in a galaxy where every major world is devastated and 99% of it's military might is stranded in one system, do you?



Woohoo.

Your option to just whine at the catalyst until you die from blood loss makes no sense.   If Shepard had just sat there, done nothing and died while the reapers destroyed everything that would've been horribly out of character.

My option is to convince the Catalyst it's wrong, or failing that put my trust in the fleet to finish the job, to show starbaby it is obsolete.

I know how your mind works, but this wasn't a situation where Shepard could blast the problem a way like a badass and make a harrowing escape.  He realized, like you should have, that there was NO OTHER WAY.  He didn't have to surrender to Sovereign or skip the suicide mission but HE HAD TO USE THE CRUCIBLE.  That's it, there was nothing else.  Chatting up the catalyst until you die is the same as doing nothing; Shepard may as well have just stayed home if that was going to be his plan.  

There is always another way. That is one of the themes of Mass Effect.
You can't even prove that Shepard is dying. It was obviously not BioWare's intention in spite of what the Catalyst says. Regardless of the fact that the breathing scene makes no sense, they still put it there.

Shepard did not have to use the Crucible. The Crucible is a price that's too high for the real Shepard to pay.
If you're happy with your cardboard cut out coward, fine. I will never be.

[The Angry One]

dreman9999 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
The catalyst is a timeless machine.... It has way more capabiltes of being able to know then we, who just live up to 100 years at most,  do.
All it can do is sit for eons and watch.

And yet said timeless machine has not one grain of proof for it's ridiculous assertions.
It has in fact been engaging in a self-fulfilling prophecy for billions of years. It could just not know any better.

It''s  clear the reapers have been watching organics for years by the place ment of the mass relays and the fact that theyare used to draw out organic life to a trap.
And also, it clear that the reaper don't want to debate this with us by the fact they are forcing their judgement on to use. This is the thing I don't like about the reapers point.

They clearly see, but the clearly don't want to explain. They think little of us.

That's nothing but an appeal to authority.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and the Reapers have nothing. The end.

[jumpingkaede]

Gigamantis wrote...

So, Commander Shepard is the type of person who would rather bleed to death on a soap box than make any kind of compromise to stop the reapers?  Well, YOUR Commander Shepard isn't a hero, he's an idiot. 

The Shepard I witnessed, even in Paragon, knew when to cut his losses in certain situations.  He didn't exactly jump off the cliff after Tali, and he left earth behind to seek help elsewhere without much argument. 

My Commander Shepard knows that if the choice is between:

(A) Trusting the fleet and the allies that he's spent all of his time amassing and fighting the Reapers to the death if necessary, and not to not compromise who they are or what they believe in, or

( Trusting in the word of a glowing hologram kid who appears and talks to him for 5 minutes about committing suicide and "good stuff will happen after you're dead".

He picks (A).  Everytime.  All day.  Everyday.  

[dreman9999]

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
The catalyst is a timeless machine.... It has way more capabiltes of being able to know then we, who just live up to 100 years at most,  do.
All it can do is sit for eons and watch.

And yet said timeless machine has not one grain of proof for it's ridiculous assertions.
It has in fact been engaging in a self-fulfilling prophecy for billions of years. It could just not know any better.

It''s  clear the reapers have been watching organics for years by the place ment of the mass relays and the fact that theyare used to draw out organic life to a trap.
And also, it clear that the reaper don't want to debate this with us by the fact they are forcing their judgement on to use. This is the thing I don't like about the reapers point.

They clearly see, but the clearly don't want to explain. They think little of us.

That's nothing but an appeal to authority.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and the Reapers have nothing. The end.

But based on the reapers logic...They don't need to. They don't even want to.
Which is their problem, they think they are beter then us...They are arrogant.

Modifié par dreman9999, 04 avril 2012 - 05:04 .

[Gigamantis]

You have no concept of what "starting over" means in a galaxy where every major world is devastated and 99% of it's military might is stranded in one system, do you?

Yes, it means everyone's going to rebuild wherever they're stranded Shepard controls the reapers and the galaxies military hasn't been wiped out. There's plenty of foundation.

My option is to convince the Catalyst it's wrong, or failing that put my trust in the fleet to finish the job, to show starbaby it is obsolete.

Right, a superior life-form is talked out of a belief held for millions of years in 2 minutes of conversation with Shepard. That would be pathetic.

There is always another way. That is one of the themes of Mass Effect.
You can't even prove that Shepard is dying. It was obviously not BioWare's intention in spite of what the Catalyst says. Regardless of the fact that the breathing scene makes no sense, they still put it there.

Shepard did not have to use the Crucible. The Crucible is a price that's too high for the real Shepard to pay.
If you're happy with your cardboard cut out coward, fine. I will never be.

There were several ways, and all of them had big consequences and all of them involved using the crucible. The options Shepard was presented with were the only reasonable ones.

You just wanted a happy ending and you're upset that it wasn't something you could force. There was no happy ending to be had. Shepard did what he had to and saved what he could. You would've done nothing and saved no one. Good for you.

[The Angry One]

dreman9999 wrote...
But based on the reapers logic...They don't need to. They don't even want to.
Which is their problem, they think they are beter then us...They are arrogant.

That's true. So why do we have to end up agreeing with them?

Remember, the point is not so much that the Catalyst is wrong. Villains are wrong all the time.
The point is we have no option but to salute and do as it says, the narrative from that point assumes the Catalyst is right.

[Sepharih]

Gigamantis wrote...If Shepard had just sat there, done nothing and died while the reapers destroyed everything that would've been horribly out of character.

I know how your mind works, but this wasn't a situation where Shepard could blast the problem a way like a badass and make a harrowing escape.  He realized, like you should have, that there was NO OTHER WAY.  He didn't have to surrender to Sovereign or skip the suicide mission but HE HAD TO USE THE CRUCIBLE.  That's it, there was nothing else.  Chatting up the catalyst until you die is the same as doing nothing; Shepard may as well have just stayed home if that was going to be his plan.  

So basically yes, Shepard blinked.  You can argue that's the more realistic or pragmatic option...but that's a hell of a buzzkill and unsatisfying conclusion to your story.

[Gigamantis]

jumpingkaede wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

So, Commander Shepard is the type of person who would rather bleed to death on a soap box than make any kind of compromise to stop the reapers?  Well, YOUR Commander Shepard isn't a hero, he's an idiot. 

The Shepard I witnessed, even in Paragon, knew when to cut his losses in certain situations.  He didn't exactly jump off the cliff after Tali, and he left earth behind to seek help elsewhere without much argument. 

My Commander Shepard knows that if the choice is between:

(A) Trusting the fleet and the allies that he's spent all of his time amassing and fighting the Reapers to the death if necessary, and not to not compromise who they are or what they believe in, or

( Trusting in the word of a glowing hologram kid who appears and talks to him for 5 minutes about committing suicide and "good stuff will happen after you're dead".

He picks (A).  Everytime.  All day.  Everyday.  

Yea, it was pretty well established and understood by every character in the game that it was either the crucible or complete annihilation.  They weren't beating the reapers, every soldier was sacrificing himself to give Shepard time to use the crucible and save whatever he could. 

If Shepard got to the kill switch on the crucible and just decided to let the reapers kill everyone while kicked back with the catalyst he would be a coward. 

[The Angry One]

Gigamantis wrote...

Yes, it means everyone's going to rebuild wherever they're stranded Shepard controls the reapers and the galaxies military hasn't been wiped out. There's plenty of foundation.

I will not argue this if you continue to be so naive.

Right, a superior life-form is talked out of a belief held for millions of years in 2 minutes of conversation with Shepard. That would be pathetic.

It is not superior. It thinks it is superior. Learn the difference.
And again, Shepard would try. Did Shepard bask in awe of Sovereign and not dispute it? Did Shepard cower in silence in front of Harbinger?
What makes them different? They don't glow as much?

There were several ways, and all of them had big consequences and all of them involved using the crucible. The options Shepard was presented with were the only reasonable ones.

No they weren't. They were options presented by the Reaper commander to further it's agenda, carrying a price it determined.

You just wanted a happy ending and you're upset that it wasn't something you could force. There was no happy ending to be had. Shepard did what he had to and saved what he could. You would've done nothing and saved no one. Good for you.

And that's BS. Happy ending or not, I want my Shepard's actions to mean something.
Shepard becoming Saren means nothing. It's a tragedy, and not a good one. It's a tragedy in storytelling. It's a failure to maintain the spirit of the narrative and character.

This ending was forced. Everything after that lift was forced.

[The Angry One]

Gigamantis wrote...

Yea, it was pretty well established and understood by every character in the game that it was either the crucible or complete annihilation.  They weren't beating the reapers, every soldier was sacrificing himself to give Shepard time to use the crucible and save whatever he could. 

Read the codex sometime, the foundations for beating the Reapers conventionally are there.
Concentrating on the Crucible was a massive red herring.

If Shepard got to the kill switch on the crucible and just decided to let the reapers kill everyone while kicked back with the catalyst he would be a coward. 

No. I'm sick and tired of you saying that the option to not be a coward is cowardice.
Taking the Catalyst's 3 options is cowardly, if you take any one of them then SHEPARD IS A COWARD. 
Shepard gave in to a genocidal monster and followed his directives. Shepard became a coward.

That you continually say otherwise spits in the face of every true hero who fought for their cause and never gave up.

"We'll win this without sacrificing the soul of our species. I won't let fear compromise who I am."

Modifié par The Angry One, 04 avril 2012 - 05:12 .

[GnusmasTHX]

Gigamantis wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

How exactly is he wrong? Starchild has apparently seen the cycle enough to be convinced it will happen and what proof do you have that it won't?

Actually he tells you it happens once to his people when he started the whole Reaping business.

So unless he fails and synthetics kill organics EVERY cycle before they come a reapin', then it should never have happened again if he's any good at his job.

It's a cycle because organics will always build synthetic life and, at least by his estimation, synthetics will always turn on organics.  Then he cleanses and the cycle starts over.  The catalyst not being able to come up with a permanent or elegant solution isn't a plothole and doesn't make his theory wrong. 

And yet synthetic life has never done what he's described, before or after they started Reaping.

He's has zero evidence to begin the cycle. And btw, to clarify the cycle is the Reapers harvesting, not synthetics killing everyone.

The synthetics have never killed all organic life in the galaxy, or if they did, it was far before the time the original race that came up with the Reapers advanced, and they left a long time ago.

So yeah, it kind of does make his theory wrong if he bases it on an event that has never occured, but rather a speculated event that has continuously been prevented or averted by the civilizations of the galaxy without Reaper intervention. ie. the original conflict with the Reaper-creators and their synthetics, the Prothean's Metacon War, and the Quarian and Geth conflict. Never mind smaller conflicts with AI throughout the course of ME, everything points to it being abundantly clear that the Reapers are unnecessary.

This is like saying to a basketball player who has a 100% scoring rate that one day he will miss and therefore is fired. Theory doesn't stand when evidence continuously prove the contrary.

The only way to fix this mess of a "theory" is to let people know that occasionally a cycle occurs wherein the galaxy is occupied solely by synthetics hostile to organics, otherwise there is no evidence of synthetics ever annihilating organic life other than the Reapers themselves. But that can't and didn't happen, because that in and of itself would prove the cycle doesn't work and the Kid would've realized it long before Shepard arrived.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 04 avril 2012 - 05:16 .

[CELL55]

They're a lot more like organics than the Catalyst seems to think. Every race fights and has wars, if anything the geth are better for fighting defensively.

[dreman9999]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

How exactly is he wrong? Starchild has apparently seen the cycle enough to be convinced it will happen and what proof do you have that it won't?

Actually he tells you it happens once to his people when he started the whole Reaping business.

So unless he fails and synthetics kill organics EVERY cycle before they come a reapin', then it should never have happened again if he's any good at his job.

It's a cycle because organics will always build synthetic life and, at least by his estimation, synthetics will always turn on organics.  Then he cleanses and the cycle starts over.  The catalyst not being able to come up with a permanent or elegant solution isn't a plothole and doesn't make his theory wrong. 

And yet synthetic life has never done what he's described, before or after they started Reaping.

He's has zero evidence to begin the cycle. And btw, to clarify the cycle is the Reapers harvesting, not synthetics killing everyone.

The synthetics have never killed all organic life in the galaxy, or if they did, it was far before the time the original race that came up with the Reapers advanced, and they left a long time ago.

So yeah, it kind of does make his theory wrong if he bases it on an event that has never occured, but rather a speculated event that has continuously been prevented or averted by the civilizations of the galaxy without Reaper intervention. ie. the original conflict with the Reaper-creators and their synthetics, the Prothean's Metacon War, and the Quarian and Geth conflict. Never mind smaller conflicts with AI throughout the course of ME, everything points to it being abundantly clear that the Reapers are unnecessary.

This is like saying to a basketball player who has a 100% scoring rate that one day he will miss and therefore is fired.

You guy got the discription wrong...Which is on of the arguments of this topic. The cataylistis not say what you think it saying.