263 réponses à ce sujet

[Barbarossa2010]

Star child is wrong about a great many things. Mostly his introduction into the story is wrong, so it naturally follows. He has no credibility within the framework of the established narrative and really only serves as a quick closing plot device to reset the "world."

Yeah, Star child is wrong, but worse, he simply has no established narrative authority to be taken seriously to begin with. While the writers have conjured in their minds that he's authoritative and credible, the players obviously didn't get the memo (well most didn't)...and we're forced to swallow it all with a Shepard who is suddenly struck mute and unable to call him on his bull$#!+.

[Gigamantis]

I will not argue this if you continue to be so naive.

So, you're saying rebuilding isn't possible? That's stupid.

It is not superior. It thinks it is superior. Learn the difference.
And again, Shepard would try. Did Shepard bask in awe of Sovereign and not dispute it? Did Shepard cower in silence in front of Harbinger?
What makes them different? They don't glow as much?

It's been around forever and built a race of synthetics strong enough to take out the entire galaxy. Yea, it's superior. Shepard couldn't kick it's ass and Shepard couldn't argue with it. Shepard fought the entire game but it was over and there was nothing else that could be done.

No they weren't. They were options presented by the Reaper commander to further it's agenda, carrying a price it determined.

No, they were functions of the crucible which was designed by protheans and built by scientists gathered by Shepard's efforts. The catalyst just explained Shepards options to him.

And that's BS. Happy ending or not, I want my Shepard's actions to mean something.
Shepard becoming Saren means nothing. It's a tragedy, and not a good one. It's a tragedy in storytelling. It's a failure to maintain the spirit of the narrative and character.

This ending was forced. Everything after that lift was forced.

Shepards actions did mean something, they just couldn't create the happy ending you wanted. It wasn't in the cards. The crucible was all he had and he used it to defeat the reapers and stop the catalysts cleansing. It was a victory, just a very costly one.

You're just confused and upset because the ending wasn't happy enough.

[dreman9999]

CELL55 wrote...

They're a lot more like organics than the Catalyst seems to think. Every race fights and has wars, if anything the geth are better for fighting defensively.

On they are not, Geth are alway way best of the offence. The requre no food, they can servive almost any where, be made in any shape, and are not dependent on resources.
They scream offensive superiority.

[Sisterofshane]

Gigamantis wrote...

You have no concept of what "starting over" means in a galaxy where every major world is devastated and 99% of it's military might is stranded in one system, do you?

Yes, it means everyone's going to rebuild wherever they're stranded Shepard controls the reapers and the galaxies military hasn't been wiped out. There's plenty of foundation.

My option is to convince the Catalyst it's wrong, or failing that put my trust in the fleet to finish the job, to show starbaby it is obsolete.

Right, a superior life-form is talked out of a belief held for millions of years in 2 minutes of conversation with Shepard. That would be pathetic.

There is always another way. That is one of the themes of Mass Effect.
You can't even prove that Shepard is dying. It was obviously not BioWare's intention in spite of what the Catalyst says. Regardless of the fact that the breathing scene makes no sense, they still put it there.

Shepard did not have to use the Crucible. The Crucible is a price that's too high for the real Shepard to pay.
If you're happy with your cardboard cut out coward, fine. I will never be.

There were several ways, and all of them had big consequences and all of them involved using the crucible. The options Shepard was presented with were the only reasonable ones.

You just wanted a happy ending and you're upset that it wasn't something you could force. There was no happy ending to be had. Shepard did what he had to and saved what he could. You would've done nothing and saved no one. Good for you.

Hate to say this, but the very fact that you are IN FRONT OF HIM is enough for Casper to believe he no longer has the solution.  I took everything he said after that with a grain of salt, because he was the one who clearly found me - if he truly believed in what he said, he would have left me to DIE in front of that console and finished what he had started - the culling of galactic civilization.

There is no reason for me to believe that this "catalyst" would know what the crucible connected to the citadel would do (he is clearly not omnipotent), and at least one of the options is already debunked before you reach the chamber -- Shepard clearly tells TIM that humans are NOT READY for the kind of power that control of the Reapers will give them.  As long as you are using the colored options at the side (it doesn't matter if you use charm or intimidate) Shepard always says this.  So I tell TIM, who has done the research and whose evidence I have seen (at Sanctuary) that it is impossible to control the Reapers, but when some ghost-kid tells me that it is possible, and gives me no evidence to back it up, I can take him at face value?  How do I know that he is not trying to trick me in the same manner that he did TIM (he did say that "we" control him, meaning himself + Reapers).

So now we have at least TWO solid pieces of evidence that points to the fact that we should not trust what he is saying.

[Maimh]

"No, they were functions of the crucible which was designed by protheans and built by scientists gathered by Shepard's efforts. The catalyst just explained Shepards options to him. "

Why would the protheans make synthesis a solution? Javik makes it clear that they would detest such an option.

[Sepharih]

Gigamantis wrote...
You're just confused and upset because the ending wasn't happy enough.

We're confused and upset because the ending fails at story structure.  There's a difference.

[GnusmasTHX]

Maimh wrote...

"No, they were functions of the crucible which was designed by protheans and built by scientists gathered by Shepard's efforts. The catalyst just explained Shepards options to him. "

Why would the protheans make synthesis a solution? Javik makes it clear that they would detest such an option.

Who says they did? They apparently didn't all favor Control much either, and yet...  Never mind that, the Kid makes it clear Shepard makes Snythesis possible.

[The Angry One]

Gigamantis wrote...

So, you're saying rebuilding isn't possible? That's stupid.

Put a wall around Stalingrad after world war 2. Nothing goes in or out.
Now ask them to rebuild.

It's been around forever and built a race of synthetics strong enough to take out the entire galaxy. Yea, it's superior. Shepard couldn't kick it's ass and Shepard couldn't argue with it. Shepard fought the entire game but it was over and there was nothing else that could be done.

Then so is Sovereign.
The end of ME1 should've been Sovereign successfully opening the Citadel relay.

After all, Shepard is no one to oppose such a superior being.

No, they were functions of the crucible which was designed by protheans and built by scientists gathered by Shepard's efforts. The catalyst just explained Shepards options to him.

Nonsense. The Protheans didn't know what would happen. None of the other races did.
The Catalyst determines the options and the Catalyst alone.

Shepards actions did mean something, they just couldn't create the happy ending you wanted. It wasn't in the cards. The crucible was all he had and he used it to defeat the reapers and stop the catalysts cleansing. It was a victory, just a very costly one.

You're just confused and upset because the ending wasn't happy enough.

Shepard's actions mean nothing. The Catalyst was in control, and the Catalyst decided the outcome, leaving a puppet to choose which one of 3 colours.

I will ask you the same as I've asked others, and I've never gotten a response.
Take the Catalyst scene. Now, switch Shepard with Conrad Verner for that scene.

What changes?

Modifié par The Angry One, 04 avril 2012 - 05:23 .

[Maimh]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Maimh wrote...

"No, they were functions of the crucible which was designed by protheans and built by scientists gathered by Shepard's efforts. The catalyst just explained Shepards options to him. "

Why would the protheans make synthesis a solution? Javik makes it clear that they would detest such an option.

Who says they did? They apparently didn't all favor Control much either, and yet...  Never mind that, the Kid makes it clear Shepard makes Snythesis possible.

I quoted Gigamantis, and agree with you.

[Aurvant]

The Angry One wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

So, you're saying rebuilding isn't possible? That's stupid.

Put a wall around Stalingrad after world war 2. Nothing goes in or out.
Now ask them to rebuild.

It's been around forever and built a race of synthetics strong enough to take out the entire galaxy. Yea, it's superior. Shepard couldn't kick it's ass and Shepard couldn't argue with it. Shepard fought the entire game but it was over and there was nothing else that could be done.

Then so is Sovereign.
The end of ME1 should've been Sovereign successfully opening the Citadel relay.

After all, Shepard is no one to oppose such a superior being.

No, they were functions of the crucible which was designed by protheans and built by scientists gathered by Shepard's efforts. The catalyst just explained Shepards options to him.

Nonsense. The Protheans didn't know what would happen. None of the other races did.
The Catalyst determines the options and the Catalyst alone.

Shepards actions did mean something, they just couldn't create the happy ending you wanted. It wasn't in the cards. The crucible was all he had and he used it to defeat the reapers and stop the catalysts cleansing. It was a victory, just a very costly one.

You're just confused and upset because the ending wasn't happy enough.

Shepard's actions mean nothing. The Catalyst was in control, and the Catalyst decided the outcome, leaving a puppet to choose which one of 3 colours.

I will ask you the same as I've asked others, and I've never gotten a response.
Take the Catalyst scene. Now, switch Shepard with Conrad Verner for that scene.

What changes?

Nothing.

[frylock23]

dreman9999 wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Op, your not understanding that the reaper are taking about the long term problems....

Oh I understand, but I reject the premise of his argument.

So your saying that a race of machines that are timeless that spent eons watching organic to the point that they could perdict there acting to the ponit of placeing mass relay in a way the  nearly every advance race can find it is wrong to say we are chaotic and cause are own distruction?

Do yourealise that we are constaly fight with ourselve. Hell, during the cold war we nearly blow are selves up 10 times over. And we cause drastict envirnmentle disasters. What if the reaper see the we as organics, by making synthetic , cause that level of distruction on a globle scale. That they what organics do this over and over again...
What it the fight between organic and synthetics get so drastic that it ends up as a pyrrhic victory.
A victorythatcome to a draw which no one can fight back after and every organic world is so destroyed that the organics can't survive it but he synhetic can .

And yet, two out of three of the catalyst's so-called options do just that - create a Pyrrhic victory where no one wins.

[Visserian99]

The Angry One wrote...

I will ask you the same as I've asked others, and I've never gotten a response.
Take the Catalyst scene. Now, switch Shepard with Conrad Verner for that scene.

What changes?

The scene would be a lot funnier for one. And it would be intentionally funny, as opposed to "Oh god what were they thinking?!" funny.:innocent:

[dreman9999]

frylock23 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Op, your not understanding that the reaper are taking about the long term problems....

Oh I understand, but I reject the premise of his argument.

So your saying that a race of machines that are timeless that spent eons watching organic to the point that they could perdict there acting to the ponit of placeing mass relay in a way the  nearly every advance race can find it is wrong to say we are chaotic and cause are own distruction?

Do yourealise that we are constaly fight with ourselve. Hell, during the cold war we nearly blow are selves up 10 times over. And we cause drastict envirnmentle disasters. What if the reaper see the we as organics, by making synthetic , cause that level of distruction on a globle scale. That they what organics do this over and over again...
What it the fight between organic and synthetics get so drastic that it ends up as a pyrrhic victory.
A victorythatcome to a draw which no one can fight back after and every organic world is so destroyed that the organics can't survive it but he synhetic can .

And yet, two out of three of the catalyst's so-called options do just that - create a Pyrrhic victory where no one wins.

Who to say everything the cataylist is the truth....In fact, I think everything after the Shepard was down is a lie.

[jumpingkaede]

Gigamantis wrote...

Yea, it was pretty well established and understood by every character in the game that it was either the crucible or complete annihilation.  They weren't beating the reapers, every soldier was sacrificing himself to give Shepard time to use the crucible and save whatever he could. 

If Shepard got to the kill switch on the crucible and just decided to let the reapers kill everyone while kicked back with the catalyst he would be a coward. 

It was also pretty well established and understood that nobody knew what the Crucible did.  The assumption was only that it would be a weapon against the Reapers.

So Shepard's blind obedience to a hologram which Shepard has no reason to trust is mind-blowingly stupid, especially in light of the unexpected appearance of the Catalyst and the unexpected results.  Obviously, no one expected or knew that the Crucible would destroy all the mass relays and make everyone transhuman/eradicate all synthetic life/make Shepard control the Reapers (??).

If the Catalyst had told Shepard to "shoot Anderson, that will trigger the Reaper-killing blast" would we expect Shepard to mindlessly shoot Anderson?

If the Catalyst had told him to "shoot yourself, that will make the Reapers go away" would we expect Shepard to mindlessly shoot himself?

Yet, the Catalyst tells Shepard to "commit suicide" because that will trigger "a lot of stuff that I won't explain how it works but the Reapers will also die" and Shepard mindlessly goes and does it.  No protest.  No debate.  No wondering exactly wtf is going on and who this Catalyst is.  

Just "Okay, nice knowing you Galaxy hope everything works out like the Catalyst promised after I'm dead."

Would he have done it if Harbinger said to?  Or Sovereign?  Or TIM?  Not my Shepard.

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 04 avril 2012 - 05:57 .

[jumpingkaede]

The Angry One wrote...

I will ask you the same as I've asked others, and I've never gotten a response.
Take the Catalyst scene. Now, switch Shepard with Conrad Verner for that scene.

What changes?

Nothing.  

The entire ending could be run by a cutscene with or without Shepard.  In effect, the Crucible is attached, the Catalyst rolls a die, and one of 3 things happen; all of which result in the destruction of the Mass Relays.  Shepard plays no role.  Even his "decision" is false since he has no facts on which to base his decisions on.

That's the ending of Mass Effect 3.  The Shymalan-ish twist is that it was never a game or a story about Commander Shepard.  Mass Effect is the story of the Catalyst.

[Gigamantis]

Put a wall around Stalingrad after world war 2. Nothing goes in or out.
Now ask them to rebuild.

They have entire planets to rebuild on, they're not closed off from anything they need.

Then so is Sovereign.
The end of ME1 should've been Sovereign successfully opening the Citadel relay.

After all, Shepard is no one to oppose such a superior being.

Sovereign could be destroyed. There's no indication the catalyst could even be physically touched let alone destroyed.

Nonsense. The Protheans didn't know what would happen. None of the other races did.
The Catalyst determines the options and the Catalyst alone.

The catalyst didn't build the weapon. Even if it's the only one that knew what would happen it doesn't mean it creates the options for the crucible. The reapers wouldn't have been trying to stop it if the crucible being used is what the catalyst wanted all along. You make no sense.

Shepard's actions mean nothing. The Catalyst was in control, and the Catalyst decided the outcome, leaving a puppet to choose which one of 3 colours.

I will ask you the same as I've asked others, and I've never gotten a response.
Take the Catalyst scene. Now, switch Shepard with Conrad Verner for that scene.

The catalyst wasn't in control of the crucible, you lump. The catalyst had the reapers all over Shepard trying to stop him from arming the crucible. When the crucible was armed and Shepard was at the trigger the catalyst had LOST; the catalyst said himself that Shepards arrival meant the cleansing was a failure.

What changes?

Shepard was responsible for building the crucible and surviving long enough to activate it. No Shepard means the reapers destroy everything.

Modifié par Gigamantis, 04 avril 2012 - 07:03 .

[Gigamantis]

jumpingkaede wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

Yea, it was pretty well established and understood by every character in the game that it was either the crucible or complete annihilation.  They weren't beating the reapers, every soldier was sacrificing himself to give Shepard time to use the crucible and save whatever he could. 

If Shepard got to the kill switch on the crucible and just decided to let the reapers kill everyone while kicked back with the catalyst he would be a coward. 

It was also pretty well established and understood that nobody knew what the Crucible did.  The assumption was only that it would be a weapon against the Reapers.

So Shepard's blind obedience to a hologram which Shepard has no reason to trust is mind-blowingly stupid, especially in light of the unexpected appearance of the Catalyst and the unexpected results.  Obviously, no one expected or knew that the Crucible would destroy all the mass relays and make everyone transhuman/eradicate all synthetic life/make Shepard control the Reapers (??).

If the Catalyst had told Shepard to "shoot Anderson, that will trigger the Reaper-killing blast" would we expect Shepard to mindlessly shoot Anderson?

If the Catalyst had told him to "shoot yourself, that will make the Reapers go away" would we expect Shepard to mindlessly shoot himself?

Yet, the Catalyst tells Shepard to "commit suicide" because that will trigger "a lot of stuff that I won't explain how it works but the Reapers will also die" and Shepard mindlessly goes and does it.  No protest.  No debate.  No wondering exactly wtf is going on and who this Catalyst is.  

Just "Okay, nice knowing you Galaxy hope everything works out like the Catalyst promised after I'm dead."

Would he have done it if Harbinger said to?  Or Sovereign?  Or TIM?  Not my Shepard.

You're densely ignoring the fact that Shepard had no other option but to try, even if he didn't 100% trust the catalyst.  It was the end, there was nothing else left.  Shepard was dying and the crucible wasn't firing.   The crucible was the galaxies only chance to avoid annihilation at that point, and rebuilding and even genocide are preferrable to complete annihilation. 

Modifié par Gigamantis, 04 avril 2012 - 07:06 .

[Gigamantis]

I'm starting to believe there weren't any real problems with the ending. Most of you just weren't paying attention or didn't understand what was going on.

[Soul Tumor]

And who knows what acctualy happened in the metacron wars? Any race that didnt want to join protheans were considered rebels. Maybe they were synthetics that didnt want to be ruled by protheans and defied them.

[Sepharih]

Gigamantis wrote...

I'm starting to believe there weren't any real problems with the ending. Most of you just weren't paying attention or didn't understand what was going on.

Just because you understand something doesn't make it good.  Your attempts to justify Shepard's character assasination have done exactly nothing to change my opinion on the endings.

Modifié par Sepharih, 04 avril 2012 - 07:24 .

[Flextt]

Technicalities as the saving grace of Starchild? Please.

http://masseffect.wi...Races#Zha.27til

So far, every synthetic race hostile to organics did so under the sway of Reapers or as self-defence.

Edit: The OP's disconnection of morality and self-awareness defies the Mass Effect series as a whole. The game is built around a morally conscient being weighing options. Forcing the disconnection, takes morality out of the equation, but at the same time makes no sense in the context of the game at all. Even if the Geth did rebel, they had every right to do so the moment they achieved self-awareness. They became equals to Quarians, who regarded them essentially as slaves, hence becoming oppressors worthy of destruction.

Modifié par Flextt, 04 avril 2012 - 07:28 .

[Gigamantis]

Sepharih wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

I'm starting to believe there weren't any real problems with the ending. Most of you just weren't paying attention or didn't understand what was going on.

Just because you understand something doesn't make it good.  Your attempts to justify Shepard's character assasination have done exactly nothing to change my opinion on the endings.

You can have whatever opinion you want.  There's just apparently no real argument to be made that it's a bad ending. 

[Sepharih]

Gigamantis wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

I'm starting to believe there weren't any real problems with the ending. Most of you just weren't paying attention or didn't understand what was going on.

Just because you understand something doesn't make it good.  Your attempts to justify Shepard's character assasination have done exactly nothing to change my opinion on the endings.

You can have whatever opinion you want.  There's just apparently no real argument to be made that it's a bad ending. 

.....you mean besides assasinating Shepard's character and completely contradicting the entire themes of the series?

[Sepharih]

Flextt wrote...

Technicalities as the saving grace of Starchild? Please.

http://masseffect.wi...Races#Zha.27til

So far, every synthetic race hostile to organics did so under the sway of Reapers or as self-defence.

Edit: The OP's disconnection of morality and self-awareness defies the Mass Effect series as a whole. The game is built around a morally conscient being weighing options. Forcing the disconnection, takes morality out of the equation, but at the same time makes no sense in the context of the game at all. Even if the Geth did rebel, they had every right to do so the moment they achieved self-awareness. They became equals to Quarians, who regarded them essentially as slaves, hence becoming oppressors worthy of destruction.

Lol...yeah, you didn't read the full OP did you?

Hint:  I'm on your side.

Modifié par Sepharih, 04 avril 2012 - 07:34 .

[Gigamantis]

Sepharih wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

I'm starting to believe there weren't any real problems with the ending. Most of you just weren't paying attention or didn't understand what was going on.

Just because you understand something doesn't make it good.  Your attempts to justify Shepard's character assasination have done exactly nothing to change my opinion on the endings.

You can have whatever opinion you want.  There's just apparently no real argument to be made that it's a bad ending. 

.....you mean besides assasinating Shepard's character and completely contradicting the entire themes of the series?

Since neither of those things actually happened anywhere but in your head, I'll stand by the fact that there's no real argument. 

There's always been conflict between synthetics and organics that could very well have been indication of a looming rebellion, and Shepard did the only thing he could reasonably do at the end.  That's reality.  That you're disheartened by what went down is a "you" problem.